Today I had my first appointment with an actual therapist (not a counselor).
Even though one hour wasn't long enough to spew out everything I need to talk about, this woman completely picked up on 2 truly major points.
1) Even ONE of the stressors I have been dealing with over the last year is more than enough to warrant therapy!
2) I have been the "caregiver " for everyone in my family since I was 12 years old!
She asked me what I do for myself?
I had absolutely no answer!!
Hence therapy!! Lol
Caring for a narcissistic LO is a labor of love!
Not because they will love us back, but because we need to love ourselves!!
How do you keep caring selflessly for your selfish LO?
What do you do for yourself?
(((Hugs)))
I am done feeling guilty for just breathing and have been for a few years. I guess, my NM has put shame on me more in the last few years then she ever did. However, I am trying to not feel ashame because like you told me "it's not me that is unlovable or messed up in the head-it's her." I too used to chew on my nails and the tops of pens! I had a teacher tell me in JR High that I was a nervous girl! Gee I wonder why...because my NM would put me through h3ll!!
Lea I don't usually give you advice, but have you thought about emotionally & mentally disconnect. I am not talking about 'gray rocking,' but just take her problems as a matter-of-fact! No emotions!! I know this is WAY EASIER SAID THEN DONE! But try to make her problems not be your problem. Yes, unfortunately you do have to solve her self made problems, but you don't have to solve all of them! Or some how turn the problem around back on to her. For example, she calls crying and says this broke or they won't let me have a snack or whatever it is and you say, "Gee mom, that sounds very upsetting to you. What can YOU do about it? Yes, I have done both of these to my own NM and it works; however, I get stucked in more than I care to admitted. But I just keep trying it! It is just something for you to think about! We all care about you and we (I think I can talk for everyone on this thread) don't want anything bad to happen to you!! You deserve so much more...we all do!!!
Chris, you have made some very good points on how a NM will have problem 1 and before you can put that fire out she is on problem 2, 3, 4, and on-and-on it goes...'A NEVER ENDING TRAIN OF PROBLEMS! It is exhausting and very stressful and the NM just moves right through it as if there was no problem in the first place leaving us with the burned. It seems for me that I am always waiting for the next thing to happen...the next mess my NM will make...the next cunning thing she will do to me...the next nasty comment she will make to me. Just in waiting for something to happen is exhausting in itself! And no matter how much I might be drowning my NM never seems to notice and if she does I am sure she doesn't care. Living with my NM has aged me 5 to 6 yrs. My anxiety and PTSD is getting out of control. It is like living with a tornado 🌪. You never know when it will hit. You just know it will at some point!
Xray,
My NM use to do the samething. I would think we were talking about the same subject just to figure out she would be talking about something different. I have found that if I tell her to focus she tends to say on the same subject and also having her repeat back to me what I said. Do this random throughout the conversation! I don't know if this will help.🤞
Piper, I feel for you. Having anxiety myself and it sucks, especially, when it is amp up in the morning. Then it is like it is with you all day-at least that is how is for me!
OKay, so when I have confronted my mother she says, "oh if I was dead you wouldn't have to take care of me." Or "I wish God would just take me because I seem to be to big of a problem for you." I tell her that her guilt trips don't work anymore!
Here is to all of us! 👏👏👏👏
I wake up with a lot of anxiety too.
Food makes me feel protected......I was force fed as a baby and a child, so it's my go to substance....weird, I know. When I was frightened as a kid, I'd sneak food into my room and eat it when I was alone....it was my only friend and companion, as an only child. Everything was counted though and kept track of by mother, so it was hard. I ate salt ffs. Because you can't keep track of salt and get in trouble when it's found missing.
Now it numbs me....food, not salt. Shuts me down like any other addictive substance would. I'm just sick and effing tired of all of the crap I've gone through every day for the past 10 years now. I don't want to feel anymore. Or think. Or worry. Or look at the MC number come up on the phone and panic. Or hear the I want to die stories or ANYTHING anymore, I just need this to end. The new meds, she says, aren't helping the pain, as usual, so it's just more effort in vain. It's all just gone on too long now, for both of us. There are no more solutions to consider, you know? I want so badly to disconnect in every way imaginable......I am just the only person left in her life now. DH called her tonight instead of me and listened to the nonsense, which was nice.
One day at a time, right?
My visit with my mom yesterday did not go well. I never did get around to suggesting a companion aid once a week because things broke down before it got to that point and I left.
Initially I spent an hour listening to the usual one sided conversation and various complaints, and kept calm. Then she turned the conversation to Sunday when she left during football, and said "I don't know why you seemed mad at me"-- I said I wasn't mad I was watching the game, but this was a lead in and I said "although I do get frustrated because I can't give you all the socialization you need".
This led to her telling me two things that put my stomach in knots. One was that she would be more sociable when she gets her driver's license back. I did not say a word. I wanted her to finish that thought as fast as possible and there was NO way I was getting into THAT discussion.
Then - she proceeds to tell me that I was the one to talk her into moving here!!! She started "recalling" FLAT OUT untruths, false info, delusions, I don't know what to call it, finally I blurted out- Hold on, I was there TOO for these conversations and I remember them crystal clear! You called me telling me you NEEDED to move! I did not initiate any of this!
Ugh, my heart was beating so fast at this point. I actually felt dizzy. I don't even remember how I deescalated the conversation at that point, because there was obvious tension in the air but there were no screaming matches and I was out the door in less than two minutes.
I don't know if it's possible my mom was really believing what she said about me asking her to move here, or if this is some kind of sick manipulation? A part of me felt like she recognizes the burden she is to me, and her own unwillingness to compromise or God forbid suggest an ALF. She is okay with burdening me, and IT'S MY OWN FAULT, because don't you know, I was the one to ask her to move by me.
I have to see her tomorrow morning because I told her I would take her to an early appointment with her primary care doctor. She hasn't seen him in close to a year and I didn't want her to miss it. But I'm not calling today, and going forward I'm going to keep minimizing contact as much as possible.
I like your idea about leaving some literature about companion services. I don't have any on hand but I'm going to have some sent to me. Yes she will take it personal and get angry, how dare I expect her to hire someone to visit when I could do it myself like any decent daughter would. Reality is I MUST limit my contact with her or this entire gig will blow up in both of our faces. I sometimes wonder if I should tell her that very thing?!
My dear, you are going to have a stroke (I'm not exagerating) if you keep this up. You need to protect yourself from your mother.
I get it!! I have been cleaning up my NM messes, and mothering her since I was nine yrs old. We all have been mothering our NM in someway or shape. I wish I had some magic words for you to break the emotional chains and you could just be free...free from feeling your NM every rotten emotions...free to just feel the way you should in the most positive way...free to breathe...free to be just you.
We all have our devices. How could anybody grow up with a Tornado of a mother and stay somewhat insane without them? Mine are cigarettes and I take meds to sleep (insomniac). Had it since I was 3. I take meds to sleep and on really bad days I take a little more than I should because I get so tired of my NM control, her complaining, how she wishes she would die; I get tired of always solving problems, I get tired of just thinking about all the crap she has done to me, and feeling every emotion that God has put in us!!! No one is prefect & you are coping the best way you know how. One day at a time is all we can do and sometimes that is all we should do!
You use food to comfort yourself because you didn't have a mother to comfort you on top of her over feeding you. I had my cat to comfort me as a child and as soon as I moved out I got a cat and had one ever since. As a child we do not have the ability to figure out what is REALLY going on in our little worlds and we cannot even begin to problem solve in a healthy way. So we do what works as a child then we carry it into our adult lives no matter how much it is damaging us! Children are not meant to be caring for a parent(s). Our NM did not see nor did they care that that we were kids and they were the adults and how much damage they are causing us at such a young age!
My NM came at me with her wicked words one day and I looked right at her and said, "You say that I am mean and that I am a cold hearted Bit@h as if, I came out of your womb this way! No mother this is what happens when you neglect, beat, mistreat, use and abuse your child then you let your son do the same dam thing to me! You don't like me that's ok because you never liked me. But remember this, this cold hearted bit@h saved your health insurance after you bounce two checks in a row, plus saved this house by using my money to pay the back taxes and paid the house insurance because you and your son was spending more money then what you had coming in, and found you a bankruptcy lawyer, did all the paperwork and the running around after you and your son tried to rip me to shreds because dad wasn't here to stop you. Not to mention that I am the one who makes sure you have food, meds, and etc. So, you can think of me anyway you want, but if it wasn't for this cold hearted bit@h where in the h3ll do you think you would be right now if it wasn't for me!!" Then I walked out of the house and drove for a few hours!! She has never talked to me that way again!! Sometimes we just have to let the beast of and let them see the damage!
You shouldn't talk to your mother everyday. Lea, she is bad for you just as mine is bad for me! I know you are all she has, but you told me "The only way to survive is to go low and less contact." You need to learn that you are important in this world. You matter too and it is ok to put your needs before your NM needs. 💝💗
"One day at a time. If one day is to much, then one hour at a time. If one hour is to much, then one minute at a time." --Unknown
She cancelled her doctor's apt with the Primary Care so I don't need to drive her this morning. DH saw her briefly yesterday when he took a case of water over, but I didn't talk to her at all.
Last night I was laying in bed thinking that I need to find the fastest path to get my mom into ALF MC. Unfortunately these last couple years I've proven to myself I can't handle my mom, let alone my mom AND dementia. I do not want the responsibility of trying to help her manage her life when she is impossible to deal with at every turn.
I am willing to deal with paying her bills and making sure she is doing okay in MC but I have no idea how long it will take to get to from where we are now, to that point.
I'm starting to think that this "charade of independence" stage might be the worse stage. Half baked brains still "in control" of their own lives with personality disorders magnified 100 times, driving, parrots, DUI's, etc. How can you work with people like this?
So... my thinking is I just have to take it a day at a time for now, and do the best I can to minimize more burn out. In my mind I'm giving myself another year. I don't know if that's the right way to look at this or not, but I can not continue with this "no end in sight" mind frame, it's horrible. I'm thinking one of three things will happen.
1- She doesn't progress all that much but becomes fearful of placement or me asking her to move so she accepts hired help and that extends things a bit longer.
2- Same progress as #1 but she doesn't accept help, nothing changes, and I DO tell her she must move because I can no longer manage her.
3- She progresses to where I can legally activate the DPoA and I move her to MC myself.
Does this seem reasonable?
:)
hugs from me!!
i read your message shell, you wrote:
You shouldn't talk to your mother every day. Lea, she is bad for you just as mine is bad for me! I know you are all she has, but you told me, "The only way to survive is to go low and less contact."
--
hugs!
narcs really are bad for our health:
we'll see it in our bodies (usually over-eating, stress eating), on our faces (unhappy, not smiling), in our emotions, it'll spill over to other areas of our lives without us realizing it (we don't realize it, because we don't get to spend much time in our life, without abuse. maybe we've never had that EVER: for example 1 year with absolutely ZERO abuse). so most of us don't know what it feels like to live without abuse.
low contact is good.
it reduces opportunities for abuse.
----unfortunately, it doesn't stop the abuse. it'll never stop.
they feel good when they abuse us.
it has nothing to do with stress, lashing out, etc.
it's simply: they enjoy and feel good when they abuse their target.
every time you speak to a narc, you have a 50/50 chance they'll be mean/nice.
and it has nothing to do with you.
they choose. they control. they decide whether today they want to ruin your day, again.
that's what they do:
ruin our day.
my solution right now, is to take a break for a while.
hugs to all of us, caregivers!!!
wishing us to be kind to others AND ourselves.
wishing us to succeed in life, and be happy :).
bundle :)
Well - i started connecting that to my mom's manipulation and cruelty - i couldn't understand why, if she loved me as she claimed, she could be so selfish and mean to get her way - usually to make me do her will or often, whims. Often it seemed she was testing how far she could go.
This is a narc - you need to understand that you should protect yourself - they are not good for your mental health and self esteem. Of course, i didn't start to figure this out until i was in my 40's and decided i needed some counseling. I had gone to confession and was telling my priest about my negative feelings about my mom, and my struggles and of course, I was blaming myself. He listened - said my mom was hurting me - suggested i read a book called "Toxic Parents" and get some counseling to understand what she was doing to me and how i could create boundaries. Advice that saved my sanity and helped me achieve a happy self confidence and boundaries with my mom.
You deserve to be treated well
EP: what sounds most reasonable to me is that you 'get a job' so you're not available to your mom at ALL from 9-5 (or whatever) each day so that she is FORCED to either be alone and TRULY independent, or, to hire someone to help her out/be a companion, or, to decide she doesn't like living alone anymore & Assisted Living is a great idea. If you don't force this issue, she will never budge from where she's at or be willing to budge b/c she's quite comfy in the director's chair, pretending to be 'independent' at YOUR expense. She's not independent even SLIGHTLY b/c you are doing everything for her AND being her entertainment committee. HOW else will she change until she's forced into it?
These women are impossible and we allow it, until WE are knocking at death's door ourselves and forced to make a change. EP, what if YOU go to the hospital or are forced into a rehab setting for a month or two to regain your strength, thanks to mother sapping it all ? Then what happens? Think about it. Such a scenario is not outrageous *God forbid* Everything is fine until it isn't fine anymore. We too can snap when we're pushed too far or too hard, you know?
I hate to say this, but my mother is getting easier to deal with now that she's gone further down the dementia path. She's convinced her sister who died in 2013 is still alive (along with her other sister who died 13 yrs ago) and they're wanting her to 'call them back' and come take care of the children. So the venom & anger is gone from her words and so is the complaining (for the time being) and has been replaced with confusion & wild stories about the entertainment she's enjoying at the MC! So odd, so different, such a break in the usual format of things. It's saddened me rather than frustrated/annoyed/angered me, so that's a new emotion for me to feel. Always SOME emotion is elicited, but not one that leads me to feel self-destructive, if that makes sense.
God help us all deal with these women.
Barb......you said something that I've been mulling over for a couple of days now:
"Narcissists will remember ANYTHING that suits them. To the rest of us, it would be "lying" but because of the peculiar nature of their personality makeup (they can't survivie their own reality, basically) their memories adapt to suit the circumstances." Some of this makes sense. My mother has always been a compulsive liar about EVERY word that comes out of her mouth. 90% of it, anyway. No matter how you cut it, they ARE genuine lies, but the reasoning BEHIND the lies makes sense. Such a sad thing narcissism truly is, isn't it? Whether it's a parent or a spouse or a child, it's all sad to witness and even sadder to be a victim of.
bundleofjoy: I had quite a few years of very very low contact with my NM: she and my dad were living in FLA and I was here in COLO and we spoke on the phone once a week. That was IT. They'd come to visit or vice versa once a year for a week, which was very difficult, to say the least, but then it was over. It was BLISS. While I go low contact now, I still wind up having some contact once a day, most days. There have been some days in a week recently with no contact (bliss) but as I explained above, my mother is declining with the dementia lately and easier to deal with in the deeply confused state. No longer as hostile and angry/mean as she's been all these years, which is nice. Odd isn't it, to be grateful (to some extent) for a HORRIBLE condition like dementia to take the ugliness OUT of a person??? But to replace it with delusions and confusion? Sigh.
Chris, you are The Voice of Reason, I love your posts. Thank you.
I have gave myself a one year plan a month or two ago. My plan is save up money and find a house. Then I will cleaned out my family home. Then I'll give my NM a choice. 1) she can still live here by herself and my NB (Golden Son) can & will move in and he can handle her finances and do what he wants with the house, which he will not pay the bills and he will move in two of his homeless friends and they'll party and do their drugs and I will not be her POA. Or 2) she moves to a AL or MC and I will remain her POA and make sure she is taken care of. The choice will be hers and she'll have to live with the consequences. However, she does not and will not know this until the time comes! You have no idea how freeing this feels! There is light at the end of the tunnel. Having a time line is good for us in many ways! We may have to adjust it, but it holds us countable for achieving our goal. Gives us hope in knowing that there is an end to this nightmare that we wake up to everyday. It gives us our power and sense of self and control back!!
Lea, my mother was a lair (still is) my whole life as well. She would lie to Jesus and think He would believe her! It would be funny if it wasn't so sad!
I have also caused my NM some distress and felt some malicious glee...not my proudest moments. But I do think it is human nature to hit (verbally) back every now and than. I think we just get to a point of being tired of being a emotional punching bag!
I kick a bag around so I don't kick my NM around! I am scared that she will push me over the edge. I have a horrible temper! Being half Irish and half Native American. Yikes!!
They really rewrite their history so that they have no discomfort and don't have to face any consequences (so they think) and they can tell themselves what they need to believe. Barb is on point!!
Chris, great advice! I have been in therapy for two yrs. He is not the best therapist for what I am going through with a NM. But he has helped me see myself for who I am and not what my NM tells me who I am. Not sure if that makes sense?!
Bundleofjoy, I didn't talk to my NM for 5 yrs and didn't talk to my NB for 9 yrs. However, my dad was Dx with cancer, so that open the door to her then my dad passed and I did what I was trained to do...step up and take care of everything and my NM. Because my NM could never handle big life stresses and now I know it is a narc thing! Narc for whatever reason can't handle big life changing moments. If life throws them a curve ball they will run and hid and hope someone else will catch the ball (so to speak)!
it would be funny if we could meet face to face.
on the other hand, i also like our pseudonyms :).
today is chinese new year. 12/02/2021. (or written US-way, 02/12/2021).
it's another chance the start the year, fresh! :)
(for those of us who missed the 1st time around).
many of us are suffering, for various reasons.
i wish us well!
my post here is not specifically about care-giving.
it's just to give us encouragement and hope! :) :)
regarding chinese new year, there are many legends...
for example, that it was a race. 12 animals. the order of arrival, is the order of the animals in the calendar. one legend says, it was a race to greet and meet buddha.
there was a river. the finish line was on the other side.
...the rat managed to catch a ride on the ox's back (2021 is the year of the ox). the ox was strong and swam well. just before the finish line, the clever rat jumped off the back, and got past the finish line. first! (the way i interpret this, is sometimes you have to go alone. we've all been given help in our lives, teachers/family/etc. some things one must do alone, succeed at alone. jump and succeed!)
...the pig/wild boar, came last. he was so fast, he went past the finish line! he had to trot back. he came in last. (the way i interpret this, is that sometimes we've already reached the goal, and we don't realize it!...for example, perhaps some of us have done more than enough for our family).
...the dragon came in 5th! this was surprising, because with the dragon's wings, the race should have been a piece of cake for him! but, the dragon explained, he was delayed, when he saw a helpless rabbit, swimming and clinging onto a log. the dragon blew with his breath, the rabbit on the log, to shore. the rabbit came in 4th.
hugs!
i wish us all a nice, fresh start with 2021 :).
kind to others, kind to ourselves :) !!
bundleofoy :)
I guess this is payback for those lovely six months last year when we weren't allowed into her building... I know it's not a lot to ask, to have her round here for an afternoon once a week and call in there once a week - and she says she is fed up stuck in her flat on her own, even though when she *was* able to go to activities she usually chose not to (... unless we went too). But I am feeling that old trapped sensation again. I could of course choose not to invite her round, but that would look mean and unkind. I feel as though I am living a double life -dutiful daughter on the surface while seething with suppressed resentment underneath. I don't like it and am sure it's not doing my health any good!
Just venting - I know there's not much I can do about it!
I'll be stepping up the boundary issues, and walking out when ANY conversation starts to turn ugly. Also I've gotten to where when my mom complains about being here, I respond by telling her to move. In the beginning (several months after she got here) when she pulled that "I hate it here" crap I would get so upset because of all we did to get her into her condo, 4 long months of renovation and a lot of money. She KNEW it would hurt and get a reaction. Now I'm just like.... okay, then MOVE, sell the condo, I do NOT care. This seems to have curbed her "I hate it here" complaints.
Lea, I'm already working a few days a week, 5 hour shifts, and it's working out so far, Lol. I don't want to step it up to 9-5 because there are a lot of things I want to start doing for myself that don't involve her, so that will also take up my time. In other words I'm going to start reclaiming my life even while she is still here. My goal is to not let her living here get to me so much, to see it as temporary and less of a "threat" if that makes any sense.
Interesting that your mom has gotten easier in a way with the dementia progressing. I can see why it's sad too. I can totally imagine how you feel. Your spared the manipulation/abuse that takes at least part of a working brain, but it's still sad to see the deterioration. I mentioned something along these lines recently- that the phase where they are "independent" and can still dish out abuse, knowingly, is the worst.
One of my first things to do this year is to see an elder attorney. I want to show him/her my DPoA and ask exactly what it will take for me to move my mom to MC if she is not willing to go herself. That is a question I have never been able to get a real answer to, and I'm wanting to know. I know that time is not now, but I still want to be prepared for when it is the time. Yep- I'm using the next year to get proactive and prepare and let go of my debilitating anxiety/depression and thoughts that I am stuck with no end in sight. No more mental nightmares of me being 70 and she is 87 and is still here making me miserable. Nope.
I'm the problem really, as I just want someone else (not from this house!) to share the load of feeling/being responsible for whatever socialising Mum gets. My brother suggested that she get out more - a rather silly thing to say when she is housebound (unless we take her out) and it's lockdown and snowing!
Helen....how ridiculous that u r still locked down with cases dropping daily! In my state, cases are under 1000 per day state wide with a population of 5.8 million. Mostly everything is open here. Sad too that you feel responsible for being your mother's socialization and entertainment......sending you a hug that you get out of that mindset soon.
I read the messages that pop up in my newsfeed and I am glad that yours is one of them!
Thanks for your encouragement to others.
When a person has been beaten down and harshly criticized by a parent, spouse, siblings, whomever, a terrible thing occurs to that person.
Their self esteem plummets into the toilet! We start to believe the crap that is thrown at us day in and day out.
I distinctly remember being horribly depressed one day as I was posting on this forum.
I honestly felt as if I had completely failed my mom at certain times.
I wrote about my hurt and frustration of wanting to fulfill my mother’s every need. I was confused. My conflicting emotions were getting the best of me.
I received several responses. Which ones helped me the most?
Certainly, it wasn’t the harsh sentiments without any compassion or empathy. Nor was it the silly ‘Pollyanna’ responses that downplayed my pain, were condescending and somewhat ridiculous!
The responses that helped me the most were exactly like the answer you just gave.
Several people repeatedly gave answers with logic and compassion and it was through their eyes that I began to see my mother’s actions more clearly as well as my own.
I remember saying in one post, “I failed my mother. I can’t please her. I want her to be happy.”
Lea said as clearly as possible, “You did NOT fail your mom. You have cared for her for years doing everything for her. You are worn out!”
Barb also said similar things. Anyway, those two people helped me snap out of it.
They accepted me as I was at that point in time, (nearly broken) and compassionately but honestly spoke the no nonsense truth. I needed that!
I see the same in your posts.
Some people have gone through pain and find compassion for others. Some people go through pain and become bitter without coming out on the other side and belittle or degrade others.
I shiver when I see that behavior because it brings out the worst in others instead of their best.
So for what it’s worth, thanks to all who are honest, patient and compassionate. You are the helpers!
It's a sad fact, though, that knowing about it doesn't always make it easy to end the old patterns - Lea, I do hear what you say about not thinking my mother's social life is down to us, but sadly for all practical purposes that *is* the situation. She won't accept help from anyone else, and if we don't step up we feel bad about ourselves all over again. As my brother can't retire for another ten years or more, it is a trap that won't let us free until my mum either moves into a care home or leaves this life.
Is your mom in assisted living?