Caregiving for a narcissistic mother. Do we do it out of love or out of years of guilt and programming?

Just come back to this thread again after 24 hours. My summary of all that’s been said during this time...

NM behaviours: rewriting the story about a particular situation, walking out when confronted rather than facing the music, hysterical behaviour when not getting their own way, blaming someone else for their own behaviour/shortcomings, blaming someone else when they cannot have their own way, lack of respect for others and their possessions, lack of motherly love....

The effect on the victim: anxiety, stress, depression, feeling one is deficient in some way, feeling one is to blame, feelings of isolation, loneliness, anger, disgust, confusion, replaying the numerous bad scenarios, feeling “empty”, lack of mental “peace”...

The most effective solutions: setting boundaries and sticking to those boundaries about what you will and won’t accept in terms of behaviour, refusing to provide an audience for the bad behaviour and outbursts, refusing to become emotionally involved, distancing yourself from the NM physically, mentally and emotionally, to the level required for your own good health.

I am summarising this as a mantra for my own mental health: identifying the problems, recognising and noting the effects they are having, and trying to put a plan in place to deal with them.

Sadly many of the effects of having an NM are there for life, even with the plans in place. I guess we have to learn to live with these effects, long after they have left this life or we are distanced from these people.

Chris,

NAILED IT!!! Lol

Elaine,

When it comes to antidepressants, the side effects lessen after a week or so.
If therapy is working, that's awesome!

Pelar,

Kudos!!! Set those boundaries!!

I'm having a problem with boundary setting, in that I am finding it extremely difficult to endure situations that I have already agreed to once my mood starts to plummet. This is happening even when my mom is not acting out, but just being her normal narc self.

I've somehow gotten myself stuck in this mode of seeing her every other day for dinner and social activity- which consists of me, DH and her sitting around while she drones on about HERSELF. (this is in addition to carting her around for groceries and appointments) It's just never pleasant. Being in her company has never been pleasant, and now with the dementia it's so much worse. So the plan was for us to go to her place for dinner yesterday. This is one of her ways of getting us over there- she buys things that are suited to cooking for more than one person- like a roast. Then we HAVE to come over, because she has this roast. It can feel like manipulation, plus when over there I do half the work anyway, but then my husband will say- she is just trying to reciprocate because I cook 80% of the time.

I just turned sour after about an hour over there. I didn't want to be there, and she was taking forever with the food wanting more to hang out, talk (HER), have drinks, and make the event longer than I wanted. By sour I mean I wasn't saying much and then I tried to move the food along and said I was tired. So then she copped an attitude, and started rushing the food and made some snide remark about me wanting to leave and "she's always tired". I barely ate and then did leave, even before my DH. He came home shortly after and was frustrated because he felt she didn't do anything to bring on my sour mood. His suggestion was that I talk to my mother, basically about her adjusting her expectations of me.

I need help controlling my moods for the times that I have agreed to spend time with her. I really don't know what to do about it. I don't know how to explain to her that this is TOO MUCH for me, that I absolutely HATE the fact that she relies on me for 100% of her social activity.

I've tried to address this in the past and she blows smoke telling me she is going to meet people, at the pool, this summer. This is NEVER going to happen. Our pool here is not full of seniors. It's mostly guests with kids and small groups doing their own thing. So.... she is not going to meet friends at the pool. I know this. She just throws out something trying to appease me, but it doesn't because I know that sad truth. My mom's dementia is advanced enough that she can't make new friends anymore outside of a controlled environment where she is the sole focus. Or maybe she could make friends with other people with dementia? I don't know. I feel so stuck and I really don't know what to do about it.

Shell, we are in a similar boat, but my mom is physically healthy enough to live many years. Doesn't seem like your mom is, and I get how you feel about it. One of the cruel things about dementia is the misery drags on and on, for the person with dementia, and those trying to care for them. If the pancreatic cancer is back your mom may find peace soon. And so will you.

Piper, I'm really sad to read how you're feeling. I think you're run down and depressed with everything - understandable really. Can you give yourself a week or two break from seeing your mother, and then see how you feel after you've had a rest and a break from it all? You might have to use an "illness" as the reason you can't see her as the real reason would undoubtedly not go down well. You are perfectly entitled to a break from it all though. The moodiness and irritability are due to being burnt out, as you probably know.

EP: Every single time I have to interact with my NM I'm in a 'sour mood'. Period. Nothing is going to fix that, it's 63 years of bad experiences and me not wanting TO interact with her, and that's not going to change. You trying to 'not be in a sour mood' isn't going to work b/c she brings out the worst in you (as all NMs do) so the answer is limiting your contact with her. She is STILL setting the terms, not YOU. You have to decide if/when you are going over there for dinner (who really gives a flying fig if she buys a 'roast' and it's 'too big for one person'? That's just another manipulation tactic) and how long you are staying BEFORE you even get there. 1 hour tops would be my max, once a week MAX. All these decisions have to be made in advance and set in CEMENT and then you can TRY to talk yourself into some semblance of a decent mood/frame of mind for The Event. If your DH doesn't understand why you get in a sour mood being with your NM, then he doesn't understand the fact that her mere presence on Earth is just cause for a sour mood. You are spending entirely TOO MUCH TIME with the woman & that will amp UP the resentment and the sour moods, so sit down and decide how much time you WILL and WILL NOT spend with the woman, PERIOD. If she doesn't like your plan, she can lump it. Or, she can go off to a Memory Care ALF where she belongs and have plenty of other elders to hob-knob with on a daily basis, her choice. Expecting YOU to be her entertainment committee is absolutely 100% unfair and ridiculous, and typical NM behavior 100%. She is on the Earth to suck you dry and ruin your life, don't ever forget that. Until YOU say otherwise, that is her goal.

Elaine, I don't think you can judge all anti-depressants from taking one tablet. I took Paxil for 5 years and it was life changing/life saving for me from an anxiety standpoint. I may need to go back on it (or something else) again now, we'll see. Sometimes it's a matter of trying different meds before you find the right one; don't give up, and don't let your mother WIN by contaminating your MEMORIES now that she's gone. Get this matter taken care of so you can make the rest of your life the BEST of your life.

My NM has fallen 8x in the last 10 days or so at her Memory Care, due to mass confusion from the Cymbalta which she has been taking now for about 2 months. She doesn't even realize she's fallen and immediately forgets it ever happened! She can't remember she's unable to walk or stand up, so she tries, and down she goes. They're now weaning her OFF of the Cymbalta once again, so her pain will go back up once again and so will her horrible moods. I am having a phone conference with the ED of the MC on Thursday afternoon; they may want her to leave, IDK. It may be time FOR her to leave in any event, and to go into Skilled Nursing on Medicaid. I feel like she needs a higher level of care at this point and a shower where they can WHEEL her into for more safety, etc. I called the SNF and they do have availability, and their dining room is open and so is activities, etc. She'll have a roommate which is a con since she hates women, but oh well. What I DO NOT need right now is the added brain damage of applying for Medicaid but I may have no other choice.

DH is going to the surgeon a week from Weds for a consult to see if surgery is even an option for removal of the tumor in his liver. I'll go with him, naturally. Then he has an endoscopy/colonoscopy on the 31st. They're trying to see if he's even a candidate for a liver transplant at this point. He has other health issues (heart disease) that may prevent him from getting ANY surgeries, we don't know.

Meanwhile, his one daughter with 3 small kids wants to come to visit in 2 weeks for 3-4 days! UGH. We only have 1 guest bedroom and I DO NOT want them sleeping here. It's too much. We'll speak to his other son who lives here about putting them up at his house (at night) or we will pay for a hotel for a few nights. We have to tak

Thanks Chris. I am burned out and depressed. I'm constantly trying to address both of those issues. I am going to try and stay away for as long as possible, but I won't be able to get a week, let alone two. I'm lucky if I get two days. With her dementia, I can't just leave her alone for very long.

Thanks for listening, your supportive voice on this forum is something I value very much. Same for the others. When I come here it's like I've run from an insane asylum into a safe space.

The time is getting ripe for me to bring up hiring a companion as much as I dread the convo. I had been waiting for covid to get better, and it slowly is getting better here in Florida. My mom gets her second dose on March 15th. So, the companion conversation needs to happen and soon. This latest event might even be a good lead in - as I explain to her the reason I wanted to leave and left is because I am BURNED OUT being her ONLY socialization. These are hard conversations for me to have. I always end up triggered and exhausted. Last time she started saying I talked her into moving here. Total lunacy, untrue, and a bizarre re-write of history. Sigh.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could trade bodies for a short time so that somebody else could have the emotionally difficult conversations we need to have with our NMs..... It kind of amuses me to think about it. They would be all emotionally detached and unable to be triggered, so they could stay firm and say all the right things. I'd try to recruit Barb Brooklyn, she could calmly, sanely and politely lay it out for my mom. My mom would probably pass out from shock 😂

Lea, your step-daughter and kids really need to stay somewhere besides your home. 3 kids?? No way with all that is going on a hotel would be MUCH better. In fact if I was the S-daughter I would prefer that too! If you and DH can afford to pay for the hotel present it as a gift because it is, she will most likely be thrilled! Especially if the hotel has a pool for the kids and free breakfast.

I know you are worried about your DH, and I don't blame you. Can I ask- why the colonoscopy? Did they biopsy the liver tumor to determine if it is primary liver cancer? You will learn a lot in the coming weeks, and I am praying that DH is a candidate for surgical removal. There is also cryo-therapy for liver tumors that they may talk about.

I know you already know this, but please take any and all measures to take care of yourself as you and DH navigate this liver stuff. Maybe going on Paxil would be a good idea? Xanax would be good to have on hand too. Whatever works for you.

I'm sorry you might also be dealing with a Medicaid application. Can you get a social worker to help with that? It's good that you already found a place, maybe a social worker from that place could help? I agree with you that your mom is ready for skilled nursing. The constant falls are just too much and her dementia is getting worse. BTW- does your mom have enough funds left to pay for the skilled nursing for a few months while the social workers get her Medicaid ready?

Keep us posted Lea. You have a lot going on. Try not to worry yourself into a frenzy over the "what if" thoughts. I know easier said than done, but remember your "living in the moment" exercise? It really helps, I've been doing it since you posted about it. Also, there are many possibilities and many with positive outcomes for DH. When my dad had liver work (twice) over 20 years ago I was amazed at what they were able to do and he had multiple diffuse tumors. The liver regenerates, so recovery is definitely possible.
Sending you a huge hug.

Thanks EP; the cancer seems to be primary liver cancer, yes, but DH has cirrhosis too, non alcoholic (he has been a non drinker his entire life) so they are trying to determine WHY he has cirrhosis to begin with, so the endo and colonoscopy, and to rule out cancer in the colon/bowel also. His liver won't regenerate, unfortunately, so the only way to 'cure' him is a liver transplant, which may not be feasible due to his other health issues and heart condition. The tumor doesn't need to be biopsied.......it shows up as a hepatocellular carcinoma about 2.1 cm; the visit with the surgeon will tell us more. There are several other options available besides surgery, and many more doctor visits in the coming weeks.

I can't do Xanax during the day; knocks me right on my butt. I can take it if I can't sleep, it's great. I am thinking about getting back on Paxil though..........past few days I've been doing well though, so we'll see. DH is in good spirits, thank God, so that helps ME.

I am hiring someone to help me through the Medicaid process; got a referral from the SNF; the gal sends off the app (I fill it out with her help) and monitors the progress, etc. The fee is around $1400 which is fine with me. Mom has $$$ left to private pay the SNF until Medicaid kicks in. She has to quarantine in a private room for 14 days and then she's let loose. I can just imagine the carrying on that will be forthcoming when I let her know the move is happening w/i the next few months. By summer the latest, I think. This is out of my hands now, so sorry/not sorry............I have no choice.

While we can't really 'afford' a hotel for DH's DD and her 3 kids, we can't afford to have them wreaking havoc over at our house MORE, you know? I'd rather shell out a few hundred bucks and call it a day than deal with those out of control kids all night long. My DH doesn't have the word NO in his vocabulary, unfortunately, esp where his 5 kids are concerned. No regard to ME and my feelings on the subject either.

I use my 'living in the moment' exercise frequently and it DOES help. Sometimes I feel overwhelmed with ALL that's going on and have to step back and remember to breathe. We get to meet our new grandson on Sunday and I can't wait! He's so sweet and happy............my son said he's doing great & for that I am grateful.

Sending YOU a big hug EP, too, b/c I know what you are going thru with your NM is no joke at ALL. I remember the days when my folks lived in IL about 5 miles away and going over there for dinner. I had to grit my teeth every time, but fortunately dad was alive then and he was a dear dear man who softened the experience of dealing with my NM.

Oh, my goodness.

I've been reading the last few days of posts here, and keep thinking, "That's me! That's me!".

Thank you all for your wisdom.

And, praying for us all. :-)

Colleen

Lea,

I understand how you feel when you speak of a ‘sour mood’ when interacting with your mom.

I went through that also. My therapist recognized so many of my emotions.

It was such a relief to have my feelings validated by him.

I had the ‘sour mood’ that you describe, depression, anxiety, hopelessness, frustration and down right anger at times because I felt trapped in a never ending vicious cycle.

My word, look at the never ending cycle you have experienced. It continues on and on.

How many times have we wanted to scream, “Stop this roller coaster. I want to get off!”

For many of us that happens every single day that we have to interact with our parents or crappy siblings, right?

Don’t give any credence to anyone that doesn’t empathize with your feelings.

Well, I see you as a strong woman. I had to learn to become strong and I learned a lot of that from you.

There was a time that I put myself dead last. My therapist would give me homework to place myself in the forefront and give myself permission to live for me. That was a tough lesson for me to learn.

I guess that I was stupid or brainwashed at the time, or simply blinded by the agonizing pain that we as caregivers go through.

Please know that we are all here for you, no matter what you feel, no matter where you are on this long and difficult road.

We love you. Take care.

Piper,

Whew! I hear your exhaustion. I hope that you get a chance to catch a breath soon.

Elaine,

You do have to feel comfortable with the doctor or PA.

It does sound like it was too strong.

We have all had to have meds adjusted to suit our needs. Yes, some meds only need modifications, others just don’t serve the purpose.

Thank you NHWM. Don't ever think of yourself as 'stupid'...........we have all tried to do what is 'right' and 'best' for our mothers, mostly at our own expense. And while that may be a 'stupid' thing to do, it's done out of LOVE and doesn't make us 'stupid' people but loving people, and that's never a BAD thing. Thank God you got out of the situation that was killing you, though, I'm happy about that. And now that I'm into my 10th YEAR of caring for my mother, it's definitely taken a toll on me. But I will tell you this: when it's all said & done and she finally passes away, I will be able to say I did MY BEST and gave it MY ALL. And that's all any human being can do at the end of the day. Same goes for you and the rest of us here who care for our NMs in spite of it all.

The sour moods come with the territory b/c there's always something to fend off with them; some attack against our character or something we're 'not doing', according to them, making us feel 'less than' and as if we aren't doing enough. My DD just called and said there's a huge BLIZZARD coming here this weekend and my first thought wasn't 'do we have food in the house?' but OH GOODIE WE CAN"T GO HAVE A WINDOW VISIT AT THE MC ON SUNDAY!

Right now I'm jumping thru the roof every time the phone rings. I hate that; it's the heightened startle reflex that goes along with anxiety. I've had SO MANY calls from the MC lately about all the falls my mother's had that I'm always expecting another.

I'm glad to have you all here, it does help me. Love you too, NHWM. Hugs to all

Lea, thanks for the info on Medicaid. I am probably going to need to try that myself before it's all over since I am in no way qualified to provide skilled nursing care. Maybe if I play my cards right I can get mother to spend her $$ on AL before that happens instead of trying to go it alone in a condo. So sorry to hear about your husband's troubles, keep us posted.

Piper said: "I need help controlling my moods for the times that I have agreed to spend time with her. I really don't know what to do about it. I don't know how to explain to her that this is TOO MUCH for me, that I absolutely HATE the fact that she relies on me for 100% of her social activity." Hoooooo golly can I relate. This is *exactly* how I feel about both my mother and aunt who don't seem to even realize I have my own life, problems, issues, etc. since I'm expected to call every day and sit on the phone for at least an hour apiece listening to what they had for dinner, what's on television, how every ache and pain they have is likely cancer, in my mother's case how she's going to run out of money (and I'm never allowed to point out this wouldn't have happened had she saved instead of spending.) No matter how much attention I provide it's never enough.

In my own case what I did was just use my mother giving away $1000 of my things as an excuse to quit talking to her. I've also backed way off my aunt. I'm sure they're confused and in a way it's not fair, but I 100% KNOW I cannot call either and tell her how exhausted I am of listening to all her problems without triggering drama of the very highest proportion and I just cannot right now. Not on top of a year of covid taking away friends/fun and adding terror since we're in a very high case count area, on top of spouse with no job. I'm really not sure how I'll ease back into this because I doubt I can get away with not talking to them forever. All I know is I MUST have a break.

I know you're in a different situation in that your mother has dementia, but seriously - you have GOT to hire a caretaker or hustle up on putting her in AL or my guess is one of these days you're just going to snap like I did. In my own case I know my mother has other people she can call to whine to and I need her to start calling them, which is partly how I have the luxury of very low contact.

I have to wonder if your mom won't fight like hell at first but then once she gets to AL, at least somewhat enjoy it? There'll be people around 24/7 and others her age. Believe me I know how they get when they like things just as they are but this sounds so unfair to you.

Chris said "Sadly many of the effects of having an NM are there for life, even with the plans in place. I guess we have to learn to live with these effects, long after they have left this life or we are distanced from these people." Yeah, lately I've found myself melancholy over what life might have been if I hadn't had mother so unhealthily attached to me. Might have been able to go to a better college, have kids... I'm on another message board for children of NPDs and soooo many of us said having children of our own just seemed like insurmountable work on top of the demands of the parent, which was definitely the case for me too.

NHWM "Sometimes when things change, we can’t ever go back to the way it was or what we thought it was before. It’s not about holding a grudge. It’s not about forgiveness, none of that."

I don't think I can go back to un-realizing my mother likely has NPD. It hurts because it means I have to give up on the idea of us having a truly close relationship, but it just isn't safe with NPD - their wiring makes them manipulate others, even and especially their children. I don't need Mom wheedling me into spending my own retirement savings on her.

Thanks, Lea

Your words mean a lot to me.

You got that right! Ten years is a very long time indeed. You have done an enormous amount of caring in those ten years! You absolutely did and are still doing your best. It’s truly exhausting!

You know what? I couldn’t even remember what sleeping peacefully was when I cared for my mom.

I bet that you have forgotten what a peaceful evening is like too, unless we utilize meds to help us relax to get some sleep.

Otherwise, it’s like you said, we feel the negative effects that goes along with caregiving.

I hope the storm isn’t too bad. I think about my daughter adjusting to the cold weather. Ha! She wore t-shirts and shorts here for most of the year! No more!!! Now she knows what winter really is!

Hellebore,

You certainly deserve better!

It’s so challenging to sort though so much when we are caught smack in the middle of a mess!

Thank you Lealonnie and Needhelpwithmom with your comments. I’m not against antidepressants at all. I took Prozac back in 1998 when my father died for a couple of years. I loved it but I put on WAY too much weight.

I think the only doctor that can monitor antidepressants is a psychiatrist. He sees you often in the beginning to try medication with a trial and error approach. They are the ones that can adjust the medication.

Ill be fine. I have friends and a therapist I can talk to. It’s all just a process once your LO is no longer here.

Lea, I am so sorry for everything you are going through right now. Medicaid is a pain. I went through it with my son who has autism and I have legal guardianship. I had someone help me with the process step by step. Hoping things get easier for you. Giving both you and Needhelpwithmom a big virtual hug!!!

Hugs back, Elaine. 💗

EP,

All it takes for me to be in a sour mood is to see my NM calling or even seeing her face! She has a constant scowl that makes me cringe! It sounds awful to say it but it's true!
Keep working on the boundaries!
Do you have a therapist?

Lea,

Your hubby is going to need peace and calm!
You're right to end the chaos!
My cancer Dr has told me that stress is the worst thing for me.
That's kind of a joke in my current situation! Lol

Sending prayers to ALL of you!😘

Elaine,
I once had a therapist make me write a list of all the bad things that were told to me as a child then write how it was not true! The idea of this is 1) get the thoughts out of your head & 2) to follow the thought through to the end.

Example, I had teachers tell me I was dump and stupid. Now, I ask myself is this true? No. Why? Because I got A's and B's and sometimes I wouldn't show up for school except on test days and pass the test. (I skipped school a lot)LOL!! So the statement that I am dumb or stupid holds no weight! False statement!!

Example, NM thinks I am a bad person. Now, I ask myself is this true? No. Why? Because I take care of her and do right by her! I never take anything that doesn't belong to me; therefore, I am honest! I help people when I can. So this statement is false! It holds no weight!

I don't know if this will help, but I have found it helpful in the past and I am using it now. Hugs!


Lea,
I am so very sorry that you and DH didn't get better news. I'll keep you both in my prayers.

I bet you can't wait to see your new grandson. A little bundle of joy that you deserve. And yeah, I think having three kids staying at your house with what is going on with your DH and with the nonsense of your NM might be a bit much for you right now. Hugs!!


NHWM,
I'm with Lea! You are not stupid! Like Lea said, "we do what we do or have done is out of love & compassion and that is not a bad thing." They always say, "The road to h3ll is paved with good intentions." We all had or have good intentions, it's not our fault that our NMs took advantage of us and manipulate us and we didn't see it. We turned out to be good & loving human beings dispite what our MOTHERS did to us! So really when you look at it, we win!! Sure we have battle wounds, but we still can find peace, joy, and love. Maybe not right at this moment, but it will come! And when it does it may be short lived; however, our NMs never find it, nor will they ever! Hugs!

Shell,

Right on!!😘

Shell, that’s a GREAT idea!! I will try it. Thank you!!

Thank you, Shell.

Well, I have to say that sometimes I feel like a fool because I put up with so much crap.

NeedHelpWithMom: You were a stellar caregiver!

Thanks, Llama.

God knows that I tried. I can’t say that my mom was happy all the time.

In fact, she didn’t care for boundaries at all!

She liked most things done exactly as she wanted.

Caregiving wears us out, right? I get tired now but my gosh, during my caregiver days I was completely wiped out!

Haha, does anyone else remember almost falling asleep at red lights?

I started grabbing a coffee before driving to pick up my mom’s prescription at the pharmacy.

NeedHelpWithMom: You're very welcome. I never fell asleep at a red light. But I required surgery, but that had to wait as I had to move in with my mother.

Llama,

Oh yes, lots of our things got put on hold while caregiving.

It’s a major concern to put off surgery though.

Elaine,
Glad I could help. It really sucks to have those thoughts swimming aimlessly around in your head and no way to quite them down or get rid of them! I pray it works for you! Hugs!💞


NHWM,
I think we all feel like fools at times. Loving and caring for someone who we thought loved and cared for us, but didn't! I still feel like a fool sometimes, but the Holy Spirit reminds me "if He wanted me to know the truth sooner He would have told me." I have a friend who tells me "it worked out the way it was supposed too!" I have to just have faith in that! You have a pure and loving heart! Hugs!💗

P.S. Remember, hindsight is always 20/20! If we knew then what we know now, we would have made different choices!
Thank you Xray!💕

Thanks, Shell.

You’re right about things happening a certain way and they seem to endure for a particular length of time.

At times I do question certain things that have happened.

I used to try to figure it all out but maybe it couldn’t have happened any other way, because I wasn’t capable of understanding exactly what was going on.

It’s difficult to see everything all at once. It takes time for it to register.

😭