Caregiving for a narcissistic mother. Do we do it out of love or out of years of guilt and programming?

AOI,

Glad you were able to speak privately with the PRN. I will definitely pray for your friend and her child.

Sorry for you and your family's loss Lealonnie.

Lea, what terrible news! My condolences to your husband and to you.

Lea, I am so sorry. How is your DH holding up? My heart is hurting for you both. When it rains, sometimes it pours huh? Does DH have any idea where the daughters are? I can't imagine the shock of getting a call from the coroner. I'm so sorry you went through that, and just the shock of it all.

Please let us know how you are doing. Sending you a huge hug.

Barb, your narc story made me laugh. No you are definitely not a narc, but a narc survivor (your ex). But the take away is survivors of narc abuse are very much aware of the pain they cause and the thought of causing pain to your own children is horrifying. Your daughter sounds spunky and fun. I'm glad your meeting went well.

Jodi- no you didn't over-step any bounds, I'll take any advice I can get. I've tried a couple anti-depressants and I couldn't handle the side effects. They all made my nausea so much worse I could barely eat. Cymbalta wasn't one of them though, I never tried that one. To be honest I've been thinking about going back to my psychiatrist again if I can't get my stress under control and revisiting the medication idea again, so I may bring up Cymbalta. I did get the Zofran and it's helping my nausea.

I'm pretty certain that right now I am in the worse phase you can be in as far as dealing with a demented narc parent. My mom is still with it enough that I can't force her to do anything. But her needs are increasing and I keep pulling back and doing the bare minimum. I told my sister yesterday that when she can no longer live alone safely then she will have to go to MC because I REFUSE to do any more than I am doing now.

Last night I was talking to my DH and I think he was trying to give me some kind of reassurance that this stress wasn't going to last forever because he pointed out that my mom has progressed A LOT since 2019 and that he didn't see this dragging out for years and years. He fully supports the idea of my mom going to MC -- when the time comes -- so basically trying to tell me to hang in there. And I sat with that for awhile, and he is right. She is progressing, and even though each week, some days even, feel like an eternity it's really not.

I feel like I've missed a lot of posts lately so I need to catch up. I hope all of you are doing okay, all things considered.

I am very behind here. I missed something but hope you are ok Lea?

Lea, I’m so sorry to hear about your BIL. What a terrible shock! And on top of everything else too. All you can do at times like this is to focus on the absolute priorities each day, and leave everything else. Don’t forget that one of those priorities is to look after yourself and your DH at the moment. My DH is suffering some considerable difficulties with my BIL and SIL, regarding my MIL’s funeral arrangements. All I can do is help and support him daily, with whatever comes up, whilst trying to just keep the rest of our lives ticking over gently.

Shell, your experience certainly sounds like PTSD, and the triggers are obvious: your mother’s lifetime behaviour and the grief/shock/confusion around her death have caused powerful emotional reactions. It’s good you have a therapist - they should be able to really support you right now. I too used cognitive therapy when my dad died, and found it very helpful. It is hard work though - but you get out of it what you put in. Stick with it! It sounds to me like you are struggling with not having been able to have all of this out with your mother when she was alive. Would it help you to write down what you would have liked to say to her? I wrote a “hypothetical letter” that I would never send, to my stepmother to help me deal with the overwhelming negative thoughts and fixations at the time of dad’s death. I could never have had this conversation with her as she would have shouted me down (perhaps a similar response that you would have got from your mother if you’d tried to have this real conversation). About a year later, I found this letter amongst my CBT notes. Re-reading it, I could see how far I’d come, and how much progress I’d made. Remember these are very early days for you, and that when you get overwhelmed, tell yourself you are safe, and in a safe place right now. Keep trying to come back to the present moment.

Piper, your DH is right - this phase with your mum won’t last forever, although I’m sure every day does feel like an eternity. You are right to pull back and do less, for your own health’s sake. You say you can’t force your mother to do anything, but that works both ways - she can’t force you to do anything either. Keep telling yourself this when you are being sucked in...

So, Barb is a snitch! Infinitely better than having NPD though....

Piper, hope you are ok too?

My neighbour explained their struggle of 'parent not ok at home anymore'. It was an enormously stressful time. Their stopping point was 'unsafe to live alone' like you said, but they said one of the hardest things was identifying that actual point. Will it be one thing? Or a gradual creep of small things?

Mine has been a very gradual decline. Like the boiling frog in the pot, so slow I didn't know I was heating up. You are in the pot now I think?

Chris, did anyone tell your SIL that she couldn't speak at the funeral? If so how did that go? I'm sorry your DH is hurting. He is lucky to have you by his side as you are a nurturing and comforting soul.

Also:  You say you can’t force your mother to do anything, but that works both ways - she can’t force you to do anything either. Keep telling yourself this when you are being sucked in...

YES, this is exactly what I have realized in the last year. At times I feel cold hearted but then I realize some people (narcs, HER) will willingly and even deliberately suck all the life out of you. Just yesterday I realized this stark comparison. The nurse from my primary care called me to talk about the Zofran and my chronic nausea. Five minutes after we hung up NM was at my door to borrow a pan to make bacon telling me how STARVED and hungry she was, the woman has a huge appetite always. I handed it to her and thought if you only knew- I just got off the phone with the doctors office because I can barely eat because of YOU. I mean.... she is doing better mentally than I am.

It was like an epiphany of some kind. I had this vision of my mom outliving me. And I thought- NO, not going to let that happen.

Beatty, yes I know the risk of the boiling frog. Very appropriate for you to bring up. What did you do when you realized you were getting boiled to death?

I can relate to your neighbor. I'm hoping it is a doctor who determines my mom can not live alone. I obviously don't want her to go through a huge crisis, but I do fear it will take some kind of crisis, and probably a hospital stay before I can get a social worker on board.

The uncertainty and the waiting for a crisis is extremely hard as everyone here knows. But the general consensus seems to be that's what it takes with stubborn, selfish elders. Even my sister told me that yesterday on the phone. Sigh.

Exhausted and Beatty, I’m looking at the same thing with Mom. Where is the line in the sand between living by herself and moving elsewhere?

Until she is persuaded out of her stubbornness ( ha ha ha ) to see a neuro and has the diagnosed MCD described to her with a prognosis, I guess she stays put in her home.

I may have an opening come the first heat spell we have. EVERY year, she keeps windows and doors closed and sits in front of a small oscillating fan, without the working, all-house A/C on, while her face glistens with sweat. Had a heat-related ER visit six years ago when this scenario occurred after turning on the oven for her frozen fish dinner.

Area Agency on Aging will be called this year for an assessment!

Good luck to us all.

Beatty, Piper, Katsmihur, it's important to keep telling yourself that:

A) You are not responsible for your parent's behaviour nor for the choices they make about their daily living arrangements. If the courts and health professionals feel that things are not so bad yet that they will not intervene, it does not fall to you to intervene instead.

B) If there is a subsequent crisis, it is not your fault.

Piper, DH emailed his brother about not wishing SIL to muscle in at MIL's funeral (put diplomatically of course). Since then, stony silence. Phone calls, texts, emails relating to any of the formalities all ignored. All we can do is carry on regardless, with funeral planning and sorting out MIL's estate etc as there is no help with that either. My DH feels SIL is being disrespectful and this is adding to his grief. We expect to make the 4 hour drive to the funeral, go through the motions, and come home again. He's not bothered after that if he never sees his brother again. It's all very sad.

lealonnie, so sorry for the terrible news. How sad and so young. Oh you all have been through enough. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.

Thank you all, I appreciate the kind words. DH pretends he's 'fine' but he's not. He's over at his brother's place cleaning it out, with the help of his son & the son's wife, as that is his way to 'get something done and not have to think' about the hurt he's feeling. The place is small so he told me to stay home. The brother's rent is due tomorrow, so they figured it would be smart to get the place packed up today; meanwhile, his sister said the deceased brother owed her $$$ and it's 'hidden' somewhere in the apartment. Naturally, she has no idea how much it is, a dollar or a thousand, which makes no sense but that's how she rolls........like a empty headed beach ball. So they have the added stress of looking for cash but not knowing where it's at or how much it is. Fortunately, he rented a furnished place so there is no furniture to move. So all they have to do is look thru the drawers/underneath the furniture, and load the soft goods into bags/boxes, and then they can drop it all off at the air-headed sister's place to look thru if they don't find the $$$. BUT, she just had her foot amputated (!) up to the knee and is in a wheelchair, so they can't leave her with a truckload of stuff to go through, either. If they find the $$, they can drop most of his stuff off at the ARC donation site and the $$$ off at the sister's house.

My other SIL just called me with some details about BILs 'organ donations' b/c she said my DH is 'grouchy'. Gee, I wonder WHY when SHE is sitting on her arse at home making excuses why she can't help them do the packing and is just making phone calls all morning long? Ah, gotta love family dynamics, huh? And there are 5 of them to muck up up the family dynamics something FIERCE. As far as I'm concerned, my DH is the only normal one out of the bunch. Brother #2 is fighting with Sister #2 so they had to make sure they didn't show up together or a giant brou-haha would break out; sister #3 is in the wheelchair after the amputation b/c she refused to pay attention to out-of-control diabetes for 25+ years........ugh. Truly like a soap opera gone very bad.

My SIL told the coroner that the deceased brother gave up all rights to his 2 daughters (next of kin) many years ago (!) and so the coroner is releasing the body now to have whatever organs can be harvested surgically removed today; we can then proceed with the burial.

The brother died penniless, too, aside from the 'hidden money' in the apartment so the family will have to cough up the money for the burial. Translation: WE will have to cough up the money for the burial b/c the others will come up with a ton of excuses as to why they 'can't afford it' when they just received the same 'covid stimulus payments' we ALL did.

I feel badly that my BIL died but glad that he did so quickly & painlessly; just collapsed in the parking lot and it was over in a minute. I watch (we all watch) our mothers suffer and cause others to suffer for years & years with dementia & ongoing issues, so his passing, while it was a shock, was a blessing at the same time in certain ways. I wish he got to live a longer life, but the life he did live was on HIS terms in every way imaginable, without being a burden to others.

Lea,
I am sorry to read about your BIL. It is nice that he went quickly. You have to love family, especially the ones who want things their way, but don't want to help in anyway including paying for the funeral. Ugh!! I would tell them they need to help pay maybe 10%. But like my dad use to say, "You can't get blood out of a turnip!" Heavy sigh for you! Hugs!!


Chris,
I did have it out with her. I knew she was dying, so I took the opportunity to tell her EVERYTHING! She cried!! It was like she got it! As if God HIMSELF opened up her mind & heart. She understood what I was saying...I could see the "light bulb" moment! She left me a letter in her Bible telling me that "she was so sorry for everything she did to me. She went on to tell me that she loves me & knows I don't believe her. She also said, that she wanted my SO & I to have a good life." I think she wrote the letter 2 days before she died.

I am wondering if my problem is from cleaning out her room and finding things that she took from me to sabotage me like my 4th grade homework or a recipe that I used to make for my dad when I was about 11 yrs old! Plus, just shock that she is finally gone. Guilt from not missing her and making her cry 3 days before she died. Feeling very overwhelmed cleaning out this house! Just everything?!

Your letter idea is great & it does work because I did that with my dad after I figured out that he did in fact loved me & that my NM lied to me my whole life! I will probably write her a letter as well, but it might be awhile...when I am ready! Cognitive therapy is hard work, but I'll do anything to heal! Thank you for your kind words & support! Hugs!!

💞

Thanks Shell.

I didn't know your mother left you a letter. I believe she DID love you, in the only way SHE was capable..........and her mental illness compelled her to do hurtful things to you. I think we're sometimes driven to do things and we don't even know WHY (OCD) which is the C part of the OCD & part of mental illness. My mother used to clean and clean and CLEAN and once, when she was 'helping' me, she scrubbed all the numbers off of my oven control knob so I never knew what temperature I was cooking at! That's how compulsive she was at cleaning. Needless to say, that was the last time I let her 'help' me clean. Your mother probably felt compelled to do things to you and had no idea WHY. That's not an 'evil' person but a mentally ill one that never asked for medical help (similar to my own mother). She apologized to you and while that can never 'fix' all the problems she caused you, it seems genuine that she wrote such a letter right before she died, and you can use it as a means of comfort. Who knows exactly 'why' you are feeling the way you are/having the dreams, but you've been through an awful LOT the past few years, and IDK about you, but I break down when something is OVER, not while it's going ON, you know?

Shell, I think that when you are finding your old things in your mother’s room, they are triggering strong past memories, and it is the memories that are upsetting and overwhelming you, just as much as the bereavement itself. Nostalgia can cause powerful emotions, good and bad. Is there an urgency to sort and clear her room, or can you step back for a while when it gets too much?

Lea, there is comfort in knowing your BIL went quickly and without pain. It’s much harder for those left behind when this happens though.

Lea,
I notice that my NM was reading her Bible weeks before she passed. She was also asking me about the 'unforgivable sin'. So Tuesday the 13th I got this feeling that she didn't understand how salvation worked and something told me to tell her the back story of Apostle Paul & that if God could forgive Paul and use him to write most of the NT then HE could forgive her. So, I told her all that was in my spirit & heart. What she did to me, my brother, and my dad, but that God would forgive her and if she just believed Salvation was hers! That no one on earth was worthy nor could it be earned. All she had to do was receive it & it was hers! I could see the pain in her face of what she did. I do believe that she was truly sorry! I believe that Tuesday she repented and on Wednesday she wrote the letter and passed away on Friday. It was the only thing she knew what to do.

I found the letter in her Bible & I could see right where she was reading different parts of the Bible & she really was looking for answers to salvation. It brings joy to my heart to know that I could show her the way. I tear up about it every time I think about it!

Maybe your right! Maybe she did love me, although I look back on my life & don't see the love, but I really think your right on about she was compelled to hurt me & she didn't know why. My NM diffently had OCD! Aren't most OCD people hoarders? My SO thinks she hated herself so much that she transferred that hate on to me!

I wouldn't let my NM clean anymore either after scrubbing the numbers off my stove!!

Thank you for showing me it really was mental illness and she wasn't an evil person!

Chris,
We have to clean out this house because we have our stuff in storage and we can't afford this house & the storage. My NM filled this house full! Ugh!! I have had cleaned some of it out in the past, but there is still not enough room for our stuff.

The good news is that the dumpster came today and her room will be done this weekend then the attic! Order another dumpster and finish the rest of the house. I live in the northern states so we only have a short time to get this house cleaned out before winter comes. Finish the painting that my NM stop me from doing and get new carpet because this carpet smells! Then get our stuff here! It's a lot! But that's me always doing to much!

I have been through a lot. I think your right. I find my things and it triggers me. That makes perfect sense! I just want to get it done and over and move forward! Thank you for your insight.


P.S. Lea, I never break down while I am going through hard times it's always afterwards. Then I have my big cry!


I can't thank you gals enough!💖

Lea: I am so, so sorry to hear about your BIL's death. I send deepest condolences. How sad.

I’m back. Trying to catch up. Been working a lot of overtime so I haven’t had a chance to be on here.

Lea, I’m so sorry to hear about your BIL. I’m glad that he went quickly.

Shell, I’m so sorry you are having a tough time. I think the letter you found means something. It means that your mom loves you and always did all along.

Shell, that letter from your mom, wow. What Lea said to you was spot on imo. Undiagnosed mental illness. But I too believe she did love you, the way that she could love. And even though your talk made her cry, it was good that she had that light bulb moment before she died, because it prompted her to write that letter. She knew you would find it, and that you would read that she loved you. She wanted you to know, and that is a good thing. She died knowing you would read those words.

I'm sorry that you are still processing so much but you are making progress. Cleansing and healing. Once everything is cleaned out of the house and the old carpet is gone the new carpet will look and smell fresh. It will signal a fresh start. Hugs to you.

Lea, how is your DH? It really does seem like your BIL kept it simple. Not much to move. The money thing is odd, but doesn't seem like a big deal, well maybe to the sister. Hopefully she finds it in the bags. On the burial, have you all considered cremation? I was thinking about cremation the other day as a woman in my building passed and a small group of people took her ashes out to the Gulf and spread them in the waters she loved so much. Just a thought.

EP, DH is quiet which is out of character for him. He moved everything out of his brothers place yesterday in short order. Brought home a box of rare Zippo lighters which will pay for most of his final expenses, oddly enough. He did find the cash, too. No photos or anything, no mementos of family.....but he was an odd man. We are having him cremated, yes. The manager had wonderful things to say about his brother which was nice, good memories to share. DH disposed of most of his clothing which was saturated in cigarette smoke, and donated the kitchen ware, pots, dishes etc. Some family is planning to come out from Nebraska in summer with an uncle's ashes and we will go to the mountains to have a memorial service and spread all of the ashes together.

DH is having lunch with his old coworkers today so I'm glad he's doing something light and fun.

Thank you Piper. I am hoping with the new changes will help with healing. I do plan to sell the house, but that is yrs ahead!

I really can't/don't see any love from my mother! When I moved in with her in 2016 and was very ill, my mother & brother ganged up on me and treated me like sh@t. She didn't care that I just lost my house...she didn't care that I was ill...all she cared about was 'putting me into my place.' She put me down...told me how dumb I was...she told my SO & I what the rules were & yet my NB didn't live here but could take whatever he wanted & my SO & I had to ask her for permission...I saw the hate & discussed look on her face she had...she told lies on me & my SO...her & my NB looked down on my SO & me! It was so bad that I would cry in my basement at night! I had to decide to rip them apart before they ripped me apart! Can you just imagine being browbeat day in and day out & your very sick! The worst part is that she invited us to come live with her!

Here is the thing, my mother NEVER gave me comfort, hugs, kisses, snuggles, in fact, she never had a kind word to say to me in my life! She ignored me...never taught me much of anything. We NEVER shared anything...no memories of her making me breakfast nor doing anything fun with me. She beat me all the time. Once she beat me because some kids beat me up & I lost my shoe. With a cold wet foot and a bleeding knee she dragged me back to where I lost my shoe. After she found it then she beat me with it! So I got beat up twice in less than 30 mins! I was 7 yrs old. She NEVER even asked me what happened nor did she bandage my knee! I have countless stories of her doing this crap to me! She stole anything and everything that brought joy to my life including a doll house, clothes, animals, pillows, stuff animals and she even tried to take away my first car that I was paying for & my dad had to step in and take her key away from her. After my dad went to work I got slammed in the face for telling on her! There is nothing in my past that suggest that she liked me little along loved me!

Maybe she really was mentally ill, but I am sorry, I can't believe that she loved me...I just can't! She treated me horrible & that was not love!

I'm sorry for going on a rant, but I am still very hurt on how she treated me & all the lies she told me!😭💔

Shell: Just checking on you after you found that letter that your mom wrote. Are you okay?

My balloon has been burst!!

Starting Monday, NMs ALF is allowing the residents to leave the facility with family members (less than 24 hrs), without having to isolate upon return.
This means that they will now charge for transportation to Drs appointments.

Mom has a procedure Monday morning and guess who has to take her?? (Rhetorical question)

I now realize how much of a respite Covid has been for me!!
I am not being insensitive to those who have lost loved ones to the virus!! It's been tragic!!
And if you lost a LO to Covid, my apologies .

I realize that things are gonna get a lot tougher!
My Mom goes to the Dr for every little ache and pain.
She is convinced that she's in worse shape than anyone else in her facility. NPD.

This SUCKS!!

Jodi, why can't mom pay the transport charge?

I NEVER transported my mom in my car after her dementia dx. Did I mention she tried to wrest the steering wheel away from my husband during that last trip from rehab to AL?

I got out of the car and said to POA brother "ambulette with an aide from now on". He said "yes, ma'am".

Shell,

I know my NM loves me, however it's love as she sees it!
Completely conditional! It's how she learned from her Mother.

Thank God we know more today about NPD than they did back in the day!
It gives us the bridge to understanding that this is a mental disorder, it's not our fault and we can't fix it!!!
Most of all, we are absolutely lovable!!

I pray that you Mom got things straight with God!
Seems as though she was trying!

When I was cleaning out my Aunts house, I have to admit I was ruthless! I didn't have time to waste on sentimentality. I had been away from my DH and my home for 2 months. I thought I was going for 1 week to attend my Uncles funeral. Best laid plans!
I knew what was important (family heirlooms etc), legal papers and tax files. I did donate clothes and some household items, but the rest went into 2 separate HUGE dumpsters.

Hang in there girl!!
You got this!!

((((Hugs))))

Barb,

Mom is on a very tight budget.

Although she worked in accounting for decades, apparently she didn't do her math before moving from Colorado to Montana. Go figure!

I think she has given up the search for her own apartment (Thank God!!) because DH and I convinced the Director of her ALF to lower her monthly payment by $700.00 a month.
That puts her at the break even point without going into what little is left of her savings.
Where was her math skills??😘