Caregiving for a narcissistic mother. Do we do it out of love or out of years of guilt and programming?

Transport to Doctor's appointments? A Yeah/Nah... (Do you have this wonderful expression? 😁)

Yeah : I saw my family do this for years with my lovely aged Grandmothers. Very mild mobility issues, cog fine.

Nah : my reality is folk with major mobility issues, cognitive issues & who lack insight over their continence.

Barb's wheel grab story freaks me out!! There's another reason I won't transport anxious folk with dementia 😱

XrayJ, if you have to drive her, do it, but with your limits. If she misbehaves - next time, nah. If it is too stressful for you - nah. Keep it short & simple. No mission creep blowout, unless you want it too, like a nice lunch out or a foot massage or whatever.

Shell383143:"Here is the thing, my mother NEVER gave me comfort, hugs, kisses, snuggles, in fact, she never had a kind word to say to me in my life!" It's so hard to let go - I can't recall my mom ever saying a kind word to me she has OK moments if I do what she wants, play the game her way. But I always feel like I have to be careful what I say as I never know how it will be taken - so tiring to constantly have to be aware. I feel for her but I also feel for me - I want to be able to call my mom when I feel down but I never have been able to and from what I can see never will be. I am in my sixties and to still feel like this is crazy to not be able to let go, I now have an 86 year old child that will never give me joy sad to say. I feel like I need to hide everything for her as she finds a way to destroy any joy around her. I am trying to be understanding but sadly it's all one way and exhausting. I feel for you.

Shell, I am so sorry that you are having so many painful memories resurface. Do you think your mom's letter to you was a trigger because she said she loved you? Then I said it too, and it may have been a trigger. What you experienced in the past is certainly reason to have PTSD and CPTSD -- in both cases triggers are VERY powerful and can bring on a flood of raw emotion and panic.

This may sound a bit strange, but try to comfort that child inside of you. YOU be the loving mother. The person who abused you is gone. GONE. She can never hurt you again! The memories are painful but they will scar over in time.

Let us know how you are doing. Every day if you are up to it. Talk, vent, cry, celebrate your victories. We are here for you on this road of healing. How are things going with the clearing of the house? If it gets to be too much can you step back and take a break? The house won't be able to call you and guilt trip you- it can wait. All that matters is your mental wellbeing.

Send you love and peace. Hugs.

Jodi, are there any senior transport busses your mom can use?

I remember when I was fighting to get my mom off the road. What a nightmare. Now I think she has accepted it, and she can't legally drive anyway but now it's just another type of burden where she needs rides. Uber helps sometimes for short things like going to the nail salon but mainly it's just a huge PIA. I also know her ability to Uber likely won't last much longer.

In other words, I feel your pain. Well, back to that word we use around here CONSTANTLY-- boundaries! Set them and use them. I'm about to change an appointment my mom made for a dexa scan because she made it right in the middle of my son's vacation here. NOPE. Not doing it then.

IF you agree to take your mom to an appointment I think it's wise to be involved in the scheduling of the appointment so you can make sure the time is convenient for you. I'm going to start doing that more.

That's great you got your mom's rent reduced by $700, that's a lot, good job!

Lea- I'm glad your DH went out. I'm also glad the whole burial thing has been simplified and the lighters will pay for it. It's amazing your DH got everything done in a day! No wonder he was quiet. It probably felt -- a little strange going through his brother's things. I hope you two can plan a nice relaxing weekend together doing something fun. In light of what just happened with your BIL's sudden passing maybe ditch the NM visit this weekend?

Jodi, I never heard of an ALF charging for bus transportation to doctor appointments! At .least within a reasonable mileage from the facility. Also, why can't your NM sign up for the doctors who come into the ALF to see the residents? It is SO MUCH EASIER!

Shell, I'm sorry you're struggling with the belief your NM loved you. It's all very difficult I'm sure. I love Pipers idea of trying to comfort your inner child now. Can you take a break from the cleaning and everything and just have a nice relaxing dinner with your SO?

Cascia I'm with you. I can NEVER call my mother for comfort. Never have been able to do that bc she normally turns it into a hysterical nightmare about HER needing comfort and I have to drop everything to calm HER down. That's taught me to hide everything from her and keep my feelings to myself.

Piper, it's Mothers Day on Sunday so we can't call off the visit to NM. I think next week my son will go in my place and take the baby so she will get to meet her first great grandchild for the first time now that he's gotten his first round of vaccinations. He sent her flowers yesterday for mother's day and she called to thank ME and no matter how many times I told her they were from her grandson and his wife, she could not comprehend it.

DH and I had a nice day today in spite of his phone incessantly ringing. With 5 children and 3 brothers and sisters, it's always something. I told him tomorrow I want the damn thing turned OFF and I don't care. How did we function before cell phones? We DID. And that's how we will function tomorrow. By pretending we don't own cell phones.

Hi All, been away recently whilst trying to help DH with his mum’s funeral. Not sure where to start with this, and whether this is the right place, but the narcissist is now my SIL. I mentioned we’d had problems with my SIL wanting to assume centre stage at my MIL’s funeral, even though this is not her mother. My DH was against this, and wanted the minister to take on this role. After a week of silence from BIL, my DH received a terrible abusive email on Thursday, full of 40 years of grudges, resentments, petty grievances and criticism of everything about my DH and his entire life, from childhood to the present day, with a bit of bile about our son thrown in as well. He concluded by saying he wants no more to do with us, ever, and has threatened us if we attend the funeral. He has accused my DH of being grasping and in indecent haste to get at his mother’s money, when all he has done so far is his legal obligation to register the death, inform the funeral director and notify his mother’s bank of her death. Meanwhile the BIL, who is also an executor of his mother’s estate, along with my DH, has done nothing and taken on none of his responsibilities. All of our ideas about comforting poems and hymns at the funeral have been rubbished and criticised as being self serving and designed to make us look brilliant. There is so much bitterness, I don’t know how anyone can live with such bitterness through their entire life, and all of this has been driven by my DH standing up to them and telling them “No” for the first time in their lives. My SIL is the driving force behind all of this - we can hear her words and phrases in the e mail, and it is now clear she wants complete editorial control of the funeral service, and wants to rewrite her MIL’s entire back history with none of us in it. She also wants complete control over her husband and he is too weak to stand up to her, as well as the shocking fact that he clearly hates my DH and has done so for a lifetime. The email also said that only their immediate family and their village friends (not my MIL’s) will be coming to the funeral. All of my MIL’s other family and friends, including her very oldest friend who came to say goodbye to her just a few weeks ago, and who we promised we would get to the funeral, have been dismissed as being too old to attend the service. We are sure they haven’t even been invited, but have no way of getting in touch with them as my MIL’s contact book of her friends’ and wider family’s details has been taken by my SIL. My husband says he feels liberated from any obligation to look after his brother now, and has decided not to attend the funeral, as it won’t really be his mother’s funeral but a showcase for the SIL. Instead, we shall meet our son for a nice lunch on the day, so that my DH is with people he loves instead of people who despise him or who he has never met. He has also instructed his mother’s solicitor to assume centre stage now in dealing with his mother’s affairs, to ensure everything is done legally and according to her wishes. Thankfully the solicitor is the 3rd executor, precisely to avoid things grinding to a halt if the other two executors disagree. She will have the casting vote if my BIL becomes deliberately obstructive in administering the Will. I am so distressed about this. Where is the compassion for my DH and the loss of his mother? I feel so traumatised by the abuse, and am finding it difficult to sleep, eat, or to focus on anything right now. I know I have been full of advice for others on this Forum, but I really don’t know how to help my DH or myself right now.

Chris, I fully agree with you that your SIL is a horrible narc! What a toxic miserable horrible person to do this to your DH when HIS mother just passed all because she was told not to put on her little "look at me" show at the funeral. Unreal. Did your DH ever respond to the hateful, ridiculous email? If he didn't delete it, it might be wise to save it in case you need to show the solicitor why your DH just can't work with his dysfunctional, abusive brother.

Your DH's mother has passed. I think I would try to focus on his feelings regarding her passing, and go no contact with brother and SIL. Maybe even resign as executor if that's possible. Get his mind OFF that toxic sideshow and just focus on HIS grief- if he needs to talk, then you are there to listen. If not, you are there as a comforting presence.

I don't think you need to second guess your abilities to help your DH. Your presence and loyalty in his life helps him. As much as you want to take away his pain, it's something he has to process. But you ARE there for him.

Given how horrible SIL and BIL are, I'm kind of glad your DH decided not to go to the funeral. It's just a body laying there. MIL is not there. I'm glad he's not subjecting himself to anymore abuse.

Now, what can you do to calm yourself? Try to think back on the techniques that have helped when dealing with your NM. What helps you sleep? If you are having racing, intrusive thoughts I have recently found that podcasts for anxiety/insomnia are really helpful. I put soft earphones in and leave them most of the night. I can recommend what I have been using if you are interested just let me know.

Make small easy meals you like. Eat cake or desert or anything that is easier to get down when the appetite goes out the window. One of my go-to foods when feeling that way are home made french fries with cheese sauce. Not super healthy but I love them so I get something down. You get the idea.

I hope you and your DH can get out this weekend yourselves, and do something light and enjoyable. A long walk in the fresh air, share a bottle of wine.... whatever you two enjoy doing.

Sending you love and hugs.

Lea, yeah I had forgotten Sunday- tomorrow - is Mother's Day. DH reminded me yesterday. 😒 No good way to get out of a visit on that day. Reading Mother's Day cards in the store practically triggers me so I stopped buying those. I do food or flowers, and tomorrow it's food for me. So I'll be cooking fried shrimp, one of her favorites.

I'll be interested to hear how the visit with your NM's grandchild goes, because I recall how she acted when you told her the news. I hope it's nothing along those lines for your son's sake.

Woo-hoo, Mother's Day!! I hate this day. I mean when is there a day when it's NOT about them? And now we have to tell them how great of a mother they are/were?? Some company should do realistic cards for the children of narcs. Could you imagine?

"Thank you mother, because of you I know what NOT to do to my own child!"

"Thanks Mom for grooming me to think I'm responsible for your needs, it led me to therapy!"

I'm sure we could think of many!

Good luck to ALL on this thread tomorrow!

Chris, there are no words for what your miserable BIL & SIL have done in your time of grief and loss. As if a funeral is their performance stage. How dreadfully disgusting to do such a thing to your poor DH. I think EP has some wise and comforting words for you. I'm also happy to hear that DH is choosing to disassociate himself from his toxic brother and SIL and spend time with your son instead. Your MIL will be with you whether you attend that garish funeral or have a nice lunch in her honor. God bless you both.

Thank you Piper and Lea, your words are very comforting and supportive. My DH has not responded to the email. We are not into mud slinging and trading insults. I have now printed it off and am starting a file of this behaviour, in case we need it in the future. It is the “smoking gun”!

My DH will remain as an executor. He is very able when it comes to this sort of thing. My BIL isn’t. If he becomes obstructive, moving forward, the solicitor has the legal power to remove him if he is obstructing their ability to administer the estate. Generally speaking, BIL is suspicious of everything, feels the world is always against him and is awkward to deal with. He will be arguing with the solicitor in a few months’ time. If we give him enough rope, he will “hang himself”, ie get himself removed from his executor role whether he likes it or not.

Feeling a little better now I have written this all down.

Thank you!

Ep....yes, yippee to Mothers Day tomorrow 🤐. I can think of quite a few Hallmark moments we can capture for the NMs in our life 😂.

Chris: Wow - how horrible! For your BIL to send your DH a 40 page email is beyond unacceptable. So sorry that you had to endure that.

It doesn’t often happen that narcissistic liars are caught out. They are usually quite clever at covering their tracks. Satisfyingly, yesterday my SIL and BIL WERE caught out. An old family friend phoned my DH to offer condolences and said he would see us at the funeral, along with a number of other old friends. I cried. It was the first bit of compassion shown to my poor DH. It was a complete long shot that he had our phone number, going back to my FIL’s funeral years ago when we last met and we’d given him our contact details for another matter. We’d had no way of contacting any of these people, as BIL and SIL have taken my MIL’s address book of contacts. It turns out many of my MIL’s old friends ARE attending the funeral, despite SIL and BIL saying in their email that none were going due to their old age. I guess this is another narcissistic trait? Isolating the victim (my DH), keeping him apart from people who would support him, then trashing his reputation as a no show at the funeral amongst these same people where he cannot defend himself and his reputation. DH has forwarded the poisonous email to the family friend, so he can read the lies about who is/isn’t coming for himself, along with the rest of the personal attack. It is some comfort to know that when the lies start, those funeral attendees who know my DH will know the truth, and will know about the lies and threats made. It’s going to be a difficult next couple of weeks, but at least my DH is now less isolated and feels his mother’s friends won’t think badly of him for not attending.

I realize this is likely easier read than felt.
I recently read in a memoir mired in anguish (does anyone write a memoir of a joyous perfect life?) that we need to give up hope for a better past. It was such a simple statement yet powerful to me and I would imagine felt by many here. So I am working to have it be my new mantra

Just wishing everyone here a peaceful day today. Always there is a mix of emotions on the holidays for me, for what was, what wasn't and what is. I am always trying to change what is going forward but mom needs it her way so I succumb as always, and then stew- not a good plan going forward. It's never what I want or have hoped for but that needs to be let go and try to appreciate what is today. The letting go is the hardest and I, we need to try to work harder at that if there is any hope for me going forward. I am not even sure what that looks like but I know that is the only hope. Now that my dad is gone, I will try today on mother's day to try to turn my thinking around, let go, because that is the only way going forward for any peace for me.

@Riverdale Yes we need to give up hope for a better past - so true! and hope for a better future which we may then get. It actually helped me just to write this out on this forum. It is so cathartic to read comments here and thankful that I can write what is on my mind write what I cannot express with to many other people.

I came here to say the same thing Cascia -- hoping everyone on this thread has as much peace today as possible.

Your desire to "let go" is one I very much share. There is nothing we can do about the past. And feeling terrified of the future is just as bad, in fact I think it's worse. That too is something we can not control, and the constant worry about every possible scenario that *might* go wrong is beyond draining. I've never seen the importance of "living in the moment" more than I do at this time of my life.

I try to do the exercise Lea mentioned on this board - when feeling anxious stop and ask yourself- are you physically okay? Is something on fire? Is there an emergency that needs to be tended to immediately? The answer is almost always no, so reminding yourself that you don't need to be in flight or fight mode is helpful. Then some deep breaths, and change your mental focus.

The other one is when feeling triggered by NMs is picture all of us behind you giving you support. Remember the words and support, the wisdom of those who have given sage advice and KNOW that not only are you not alone, but you will be okay.

Love and hugs to you all, and to those who are also mom's - Happy Mother's Day to YOU.

Happy Mother's Day to all!

Chris, HA! Karma came around early to bite BIL & SIL on their arses, didn't it? :) In many cases, the TRUTH seems to prevail, I know. Hard as the narcs fight to have things 'their way' and have the LIES prevail, the truth manages to find a way. And your MIL is working her magic from above, I believe, to see to it that happens!

Riverdale, I like that "we need to give up hope for a better past". At this point, I'd be relatively satisfied with 'hope for a decent today.'

I've been trying to call NM since Friday and there has been no answer, not even at 9 pm! She again has the voice mail feature turned OFF. So this morning I called over to the MC and got a CG on the phone. NM was in the activity room; I asked that she be put on the phone. I asked her why she has not been answering her phone the past few days? "It's not working" she says. Meanwhile, my son was able to reach her yesterday. So when we go by to visit today, I will have her phone CHECKED out to make sure it is operational. If so, screw it all and she can call ME if/when the desire strikes her. That's one less thing on MY plate to worry about.

I hope you all have a good day today & that your NMs do not find a way to ruin it for you.

Happy Mother’s Day everyone 💗.

Chis,
The nerve of some people! I'm with Lea, what a horrible person your SIL is to make the funeral her stage!! And I sorry, but you have to be a low life to drag (Name calling or whatever) your son into this mess. It's fine if your DH brother has a problem with him, but to drag your son into it! Ugh!!

My dad use to tell me how funerals usually bring the worst out in people & it does! In my own family after my dad died my mother & brother acted like vultures. Sounds like your SIL & BIL are acting the same way! That is to bad!

If you think your SIL is a narc then you're probably right! Furthermore, in my experience the ones who accuses you of wanting all the money or is doing all the accusing of whatever it is are usually the ones who want it or doing it!

If I was your DH I would tell SIL to mine her own business because this wasn't her mom and she needs to but out, and do things that his mom because after all it's about his mom! A funeral is the last day where it is about the life & celebrating of that person's life!

I'm sorry for your loss and all the bs your DH & you are going through! Hugs!!

I am doing better! As I am throwing my NM stuff away it is making me feel better!

Llama,
I am doing better. I had a big cry the other night for that little girl in me! I put my mother's letter away! It just makes me mad! Mad because why couldn't she see what she did yrs ago or a year ago? Nope it had to happen right before she died! But I guess that was how it was suppose to work out!

Xray,
I think she did make things right with God! I think that is one of the reasons she wrote that letter. As hurt & mad I am about what she did to me and what a mess she left me, I do pray that she is finally at peace! I did forgive her!

Cascia,
It is exhausting and frustrating dealing with someone who only sees their needs & wants. Like you & probably most here, you have to walk on eggshells with these women. For me, I couldn't even be myself or there would be some kind of backlash! If I said the wrong thing my mother would get back at me & I would never even know what I said or done, but that is how they are!! I haven't liked Mother's Day either because it always brought out the fact that I didn't have a loving & caring mom. Selfishness has to be the worst thing to deal with! I am truly sorry that you have to be apart of this club! It really sucks!!! Hugs!!

Piper,
I do think that my mother's letter was a trigger for me. I didn't think about it in that way! I did put her letter away! The words I long to hear from her came three days before her death! I can't help but think she wrote it because she knew she was dying...like she had no choice but to make things right with me for 'Her Sake.'

I think it is a great idea to comfort the little girl, but I don't have a clue on how to do that. My dad raised me to be tough & strong. "Crying is for the weak & if your going to cry don't let anyone see it." My dad always told me to NEVER let anyone see you weak or know your weak points because they will use it against you! So, I am use to 'manning' up so to speak!

I am hoping that with new paint, carpet, and our stuff here will help me feel much better! I will be selling the house, but that is a few years off.

Lea,
I am sorry that everytime you turn around that it is 'ALWAYS SOMETHING!' You just never get a break from their shenanigans! Hugs!!


Thanks to all of you for your love & support! Sending all of you love, peace, & hugs!


Side Note: This is going to sound bad, but I took some of my mother's dolls (china) and the dishes & her nik naks (her precious things) and I smashed them in my driveway! That got out a lot of anger! My hope for what could have should have been died with her! I have hope for a new life!!

Chris: I am glad that your DH was shown compassion. The BIL and SIL's despicable deck of cards came tumbling down as it should!

Shell: You're very welcome. File the letter as you did and don't look at it again.

Shell - Do what you need to do to feel better, you no longer have to walk on eggshells, You can even be yourself without backlash, without everything being questioned "If I said the wrong thing my mother would get back at me & I would never even know what I said or done" I know this feeling all too well always careful what I share, never knowing what kind of response I was going to get. After years of keeping secrets that didn't warrant it should be somewhat liberating to have that weight off, try to appreciate it now as best as you can.

Everyone out there - when you go to the grocery next buy yourself some flowers!

It’s good to read how each of us are finding our own coping strategies and also how we are learning from each other and benefitting from our mutual support.

I’m still feeling very stressed today for my DH. He made the journey from one side of the country to the other last night, to go to his mum’s house today to deal with a surveyor who needs to look at her collection of valuable antique china, and who will then remove it from the house for safekeeping. DH stayed in a hotel as I was fearful of his safety if he’d stayed in his mum’s house, with the BIL living in the same village. He managed to call in on his mum’s oldest friend en route, who confirmed she’d not been invited to MIL’s funeral. My MIL gave my BIL some money to pay for her transport to the funeral, as she is not very wealthy. He has pocketed the money for himself instead!
Thankfully my DH had the good sense and foresight to photograph all of the china a few weeks ago when he went to say goodbye to his mum. He knew there was a distinct possibility that the SIL would help herself to things. It was just as well he did this as today he found the items had been rifled through and several large pieces have disappeared. He informed the surveyor and the solicitor and has photographs of the missing items. My SIL and BIL are so stupid. They took the largest items, presumably thinking they were the most valuable, whereas it’s actually the smallest pieces that are of the highest value! Also, it hadn’t crossed their minds that the large items might not be missed - doh! There is still the matter of the missing antique jewellery.
My DH is revisiting his mum’s old friend on the way home today, and has found some nice photos of the two of them together, that he can pass on as a nice keepsake. Then he will call in to see our son. I have told our son it’s the first time in his life that he needs to support his dad, rather than the other way round. DH will finally get back here around midnight I guess.

I am supposed to go over and see NM this afternoon. I’m so stressed and restless in the house that I’m actually looking forward to going - how desperate is that? I would love some support from her but am not building up my hopes, and then I won’t be disappointed.

Chris............I'd like to say I'm surprised at your BIL and SIL's behavior but I'm not. Not in the slightest. Criminals are ALL stupid and think they'll never, ever get caught, which is why the jails & prisons are so full! People rob banks on a daily basis in spite of there being CAMERAS installed all over the place! "Oh, I'll never get caught" they say. HA! I'd love to hear how they plan to squirm out of the questions about where the missing large pieces of antique china have gone? And again, karma comes along to bite them when they least expect it, one hopes.

To know that they've behaved in such a ludicrous way towards MILs friend, pocketing the money that was to go towards her transport to the funeral, and not INVITING her! Omg, how disgusting IS that? Neither of you had any idea just how low the two of them could stoop, or how ugly they are as human beings, huh? It's always a terrible thing to find such information out about family members. I'm glad your DH did not stay at his mum's house............sad but true.

I hope the visit with your NM goes well. Pretty sad when a visit THERE is something you're looking forward to, huh? Sending you a big hug today, dear Chris.

Thank you Lea. My visit to NM turned out ok actually. Having some distance between us is good. I still don't know where our relationship is at, though - I guess this is the case with narcs. You are on guard at all times.

Yes, I think I am traumatised from BIL and SIL behaviour. I knew they could be difficult but all of this is way beyond anything I would have ever imagined of them. I can't eat, with the stress of it all, and drift aimlessly about each day.

Thankfully DH met my MIL's oldest friend today. She had been told that my MIL had died, but had not been invited to the funeral, and was confused and upset but hadn't wanted to intrude by phoning my BIL. She was really cross about the terrible accusations levelled at my DH, and about the lies about funeral invites and attendees. He gave her a cherished photo of her with my MIL, which she really appreciated. DH will pay for her transport to the funeral if she wishes to go. I think she will be a real support to my DH over the coming months, and he will be for her, too.
I expect him home very late tonight and as he has tomorrow off work, I am insisting he has a day of complete rest.

Hi All-Been away for some time. I felt I needed to do some reading, looking for ways to stop the ruminating 'script' in my head since I am 'still dealing' with a severely narcissistic mother. (She is still living, despite all odds being against her. Her hospice nurse thinks she enjoys being the dying in pain martyr.) One book I read was 'Mothers Who Can't Love', by Susan Forward. It was insightful, even though I have done much reading on narcissistic mothers and their horrible legacies. Particularly alerted on theme of family 'enmeshment'. Made the realization that my mother deliberately created 'enmeshed' scenarios, and worse, had to make the realization that I was part of that enmeshment scheme and probably stressed out my sibs who are doing their own best to just survive in the face of her dying narcissism. Going to work on that, and someway/somehow get past this stupid ruminating.

On another note, I see that much has happened here in this forum in April and May. My thoughts are with all of you who are dealing with the aftermath of family deaths, and with health matters of your true loved ones. So many heartbreaking stories here, yet there is resilience, and humor, and support. Something that narcissists can't destroy, and that gives 'hope'.

Stilldealing, nice to see you posting! I can surely understand your NM relishing the role of 'in pain dying martyr'...........unbelievable as it is. I always say, these women fight and fight and FIGHT right to the BITTER end. Right until their last breath, and it's the 100% God's-honest truth. Making everyone's life a true nightmare every step of the way; it's the purpose of their life. :(

Chris............hmmm, wondering what will happen if your MILs friend does show up uninvited to the funeral; what will BIL and SIL do, I wonder?? That kind of worries me; that she would be there all alone with no support, at the mercy of those two terrible people who have proven themselves to be of the worst possible character.

I don't blame you for feeling traumatized by their horrible behavior. Good and normal people NEVER expect such vile actions from others; it's out of the scope of what our minds can imagine, you know? Then, to apply it to a FAMILY member is even more unimaginable. Kind of like what we deal with with the NMs from time to time; seeing THAT level of nastiness is hard to wrap one's mind around b/c we ourselves don't feel it in our hearts. Sociopathic type behavior is reserved for criminals and lunatics, we feel, not our loved ones for petesake! But then, we're gobsmacked that these sociopaths exist in our families and were able to HIDE it for so long! Makes one sick to the stomach, doesn't it?

Stilldealing, everything sounds very difficult for you. I know you’ve been reading a lot around the subject, but have you tried writing down your thoughts when they are overwhelming you? We’ve discussed this many times before on this forum. Sometimes the only way to stop the thoughts is to get them out - a bit like a purge of the system I think. It works for me. You’re right, there are some terrible stories here, but also so much goodness from all the support we give each other. I think together we can ensure the goodness eventually overcomes the badness.

Lea, I am on the case about my MIL’s friend if she decides to attend the funeral. I am in contact with the minister and will ask him to take care of her before and after the service, which I know he would gladly do. She is a feisty old bird though and is more than a match for those two rogues! She has told my DH a lot of things today about their behaviour towards my MIL spanning many years. Some of it is really shocking. I am pleased though that he now has a line of communication with her, as she knows she hasn’t been forgotten and she’s validated his honesty and integrity.

Chris, oh PERFECT about the minister! No wonder why the BIL & SIL don't want your MILs friend to attend the funeral! She has THE GOODS on them! HA! I'll say it again: KARMA is comin' round the bend for those 2 rogues, as you call them!