Caregiving for a narcissistic mother. Do we do it out of love or out of years of guilt and programming?

Chris: Prayers for your DH.

Quite upset to find out that last summer my MIL went a month without getting to the food shops as my BIL and SIL kept saying they were too busy to take her. She was reliant on them for transport, living in a village with no bus service. All the online delivery slots were booked up, and she ended up living on scraps of food from the small amount of canned food she had in the house. We didn’t know - and she only told her BF afterwards. I’d kept asking her on our weekly phone calls if she had enough food in the house and she’d said she was fine. It turns out she was fearful of upsetting BIL and SIL by accepting the offer of an order of food from us.

I contrast this with the complete focus I had last year on making sure my family, including my NM, were kept well fed. I remember how my NM just kept expecting the food to magically appear, with no thought as to how difficult that was sometimes, with large queues to get into stores, no online delivery slots and the worry of catching COVID and bringing it into the house. At the peak of the problem, before the stores had got their Covid secure policies in place and their distribution channels sorted, I spent hours each week trying to source new food providers, so I could avoid supermarkets and so protect my NM.

I suppose what I’m getting at is that there is a huge sense of injustice when you are dealing with narcissistic people, on top of the other angst and distress they cause. You do your best and that is ignored or taken for granted, while others do nothing, profess to be saints themselves and people believe them, or at the very least they get away with their poor behaviour.

Sorry Ladies,

I have to play catch up, but I wanted to share this before it gets lost in the cavern of the last few days.
It was an eye opener for me !

Visit with NM on Sunday (Mother's day) and I had to take NM to her Dr's appointment today.

My DH made the comment this evening that I am a totally different person when I have to deal directly with my Mom.

I'm at a loss!

How do we separate being the daughter of a narcissistic mother,
and the loving supportive wife?

How do we not let our narcissistic parents infect our relationship with our spouse???

Jodi, you are a different person with your NM as you are guarded, wary, fearful, distrustful, abused, and so on and so on.....

Like victims of other kinds of abuse, it is very hard for those experiences to not impact other areas of your life.

All I think you can do is to be self aware about this, and it is great that you are. Maybe write down the feelings and behaviours you have when with your mother, then ask yourself if you ever feel or behave like this with your DH. It might well throw up some danger areas that you could work on. Share the learning you get from doing this, with your DH. He sounds very supportive and I’m sure he would really help you if he knows that you are distressed and frustrated by some of your feelings and behaviours.

And remember, keep telling yourself: none of this is your fault.

Thanks Chris!!🤗

I'm so sorry that you had to find out about MIL's situation!!

I'm sure that causes pangs of guilt, but you did everything you could!!

BIL & SIL should be ashamed of themselves!!

Chris, the real truth is coming out now, in all its ugly detail, and your BIL and SIL have been abusive towards your MIL, that much is clear. While you feel badly about this, and who wouldn't, this is not your fault, and nothing you could have known about or even changed. Your MIL was fearful of these 2 people and kept their behavior a secret, which is very sad indeed. There is a lot of elder abuse going on in the world, behind closed doors, by 'loving family members' who pretend they're great caregivers and doing 'so much' for their mothers, when in reality, they're neglecting them. I'm so sorry your dear MIL went thru such a thing with her own SON, and that you are only now hearing the sordid details. Their behavior NOW is starting to make sense, though, isn't it? Pretending they were so 'wonderful' to your MIL and want to take full credit for her care and management by speaking at her funeral.............with any luck at all, they WILL get FULL CREDIT for all they've done! The truth will come out, in all its gory detail, and they'll be known all over town for the monsters they truly are. THAT would be the best thing that could happen to them!

Jodi, my DH says similar things to me about how I am a different person when dealing with my NM. Which makes sense when you stop to think about it. How are we SUPPOSED to be when dealing with fanged serpents? Nice and happy and bubbly? Or guarded and protected and trying to survive the battle? The key is this: NOBODY wins when dealing with a narc. You lose. He loses. Everybody comes out of the battle with scars. You can try to come up with a battle plan, and at best, the scars will be minimal. But there will still be scars b/c each meeting is a battle. We do the best we can during these battles, and short of going no contact, what is the 'solution'? What is your DHs suggestion for a solution? I find it annoying and offensive when my DH makes those remarks b/c they serve no useful purpose. I KNOW I'm a different person around NM, and I also know I'm trying my best to function within my role as the NMs daughter. I am also trying to function as his wife and all the rest of it but something winds up falling short because there's a NARC involved. It's like saying you're going to visit a den of poisonous snakes and expecting to come home smiling and happy. WHY? The snake den will have you on guard and worried you'll get bitten. You'll have your armor up the whole time! It's to be EXPECTED, in other words, that we're 'different people' when dealing with NMs or when we're dealing with a den of poisonous snakes!

Chris-I have tried journaling, writing out affirmations, and so forth. When I read the journal later, I am astounded at the shear extent of the senseless abuse perpetrated by mother. So not a good place for me to go. I think because mother's final illness has required more interaction with her on my part (she refused to make any sensible plans for her elder years or the fact she would eventually die from her cancer diagnosis, since her modus operandi always was to never be responsible for herself or her own decisions), the resulting medical crises, the work to get her moved into a SNF facility with her obstructing every move, has exacerbated my own mental distress (PTSD) caused by her personality disorders. What worked for me for many years was periods of very low contact, and 'gray rocking' during periods of contact (family holiday events, weddings, funerals, etc). Unfortunately, she now thinks her condition entitles her to obligatory visits, which she deliberately makes as miserable as possible. I now anticipate going no contact until her bitter end, out of necessity for my own well being and just good common sense about avoiding poisonous, vicious things. I used to worry about being shunned by my siblings for 'no contact' while 'poor mother is dying', but hey, they are entitled to conduct themselves as they wish, and I am entitled to conduct myself as I see best. Anyway, thanks everybody for the sounding board here. It helps to get this stuff out.

Stilldealing, your own health should be your number one priority. If you need to reduce visits or go no contact, you really shouldn't bother about being judged by siblings. If they're abusive too, cut them out as well and instead spend time with people who respect, value and care for you. I've had enough of abusive people. Why should we have to interact with people who seem to take pleasure in being horrible to others?

Chris: Oh, my! Your poor mother in law! I am so sorry that she was forced to live on scraps by abusive people not caring for her. They are the lowest of the low.

Jodi and Lea: Big virtual hugs to you both for the h#ll you've been through.💖

Llama, my DH discovered yesterday that BIL and SIL had been using my MIL’s bank card several times while she was in hospital and have helped themselves to £700 from various cash point machines in their local town. It’s all itemised in MIL’s closing bank statement. Every day there is a new, horrible revelation. It is exhausting and sickening dealing with all this. How do we prevent vulnerable elderly people being exploited in this way? I’d like to warn others of what can happen, but who expects this from their own family members: professional people who don’t even need the money?

Chris: Oh, my! That's fraud! Even if was your incorrigible SIL and BIL! Is there a way to report these criminally minded relatives to your MIL's financial institution, even though she has passed? I get being angry. I will be an advocate for the elderly. Once when I took my mother to her retinologist, I witnessed a nurse speaking in an acrimonious tone to an elderly patient. When I got back to my mother's house, I called back to the practice and spoke to the nurse's supervisor and told her what I had witnessed and mind you - it was a perfect stranger to me, but if I could help that elderly lady, I would and DID speak up.

Llama, my DH has forwarded the bank statement to my MIL’s solicitor so she can ask BIL to account for the missing money (along with missing jewellery too).

You did a good thing helping that elderly lady. I sometimes wonder how much of this stuff goes on that is hidden from us, either because it isn’t seen by anyone else or because the elderly victim doesn’t want to speak out about it.

Chris: Okay; good; I am sorry that jewelry went missing, too.

Thank you! I feel the same way about being an advocate for the elderly. I believe my mom's generation wouldn't want to speak up about it - I can hear her now saying 'Don't cause a scene.' No scene was created, though - not by me. They're the "Silent Generation."

Well, I just wanted to touch base. In the last two weeks my SO & I have been cleaning out the attic. It was filled to the max. We already filled one 20 yr dumpster and we need a 10 yr to finish. I have to say it has been very therapeutic for me. Throwing out all her precious things, which is old clothes that have been ruined, book, old sewing patterns that are also ruined, plus, her old broken dolls that my NM was going to fix but didn't. Don't worry most of everything in the attic has been ruined. I guess that was her place to hoard her things. Cleaning out the attic is like cleaning out my past!

Once the attic is done then it is time to do the dinning room clean & paint. I am going to take my own advice and paint my NM'S old room. I feel like I am putting my old past to rest, while I build a new future.

I am doing so much better. Thank you for all your support. I couldn't have gotten through it all without all of your helped. Wishing all of you love, peace, joy, and happiness. You all deserve these things and more. 💖💙❤

Hugs!!!
Shell

I didn't realize how long I've been away from here until I looked at the dates. I hope everyone is doing okay. Chris I'm sorry your BIL and SIL are so vile. As Lea pointed out none of what they are, or what they did is your fault or your DH's fault. I hope they can be penalized for helping themselves to assets they had no business taking.

Things here have been the same. So... yeah I'm still trying to figure out a way to survive and take care of myself while dealing with this ongoing situation with my mom. DH and I took her out to lunch on Friday, then afterwards we went over her place and continued to visit. After being with her for close to four hours I expected that would be sufficient, but when my DH left briefly to go get something at our place that she needed she started asking me to come back later and help her put her candles around. She doesn't need help with that she just wanted me to come back. Actually she didn't "ask" - she gave me a command- I need you to come over and help me with these when it gets darker (these are battery candles) to which I said- "I'm not coming back over tonight". I said it calmly, but she went instant psycho and in that TONE she glared at me "I'll do it myself!!" My heart rate went sky high instantly. I didn't say anything and she was still pouting when DH came back in, somehow his presence made her calm down, and she didn't ask me to come over to help with candles anymore. I was pretty much ready to get out of there at that point and we did leave about 15 mins later but she STILL tried to rope me in again by asking if I would come down and watch a show with her. I said no I would be in bed by then which was the truth but what the hell?!

One I vowed I will NOT be alone with her unless it is some kind of emergency. But 2- I can not deal with this needy demanding behavior. I didn't call or see her yesterday. Who knows what will happen today. I'm taking our dogs for a rabies shot at the pet clinic so I won't be around until later, but I'm thinking I will skip today too.

I'm just not getting any better at this. I'm feeling a bit worried that when my son and the others come for the wedding next month it's going to show on me. I've lost a lot of my hair, and some weight, I just think I look bad and I don't want my son seeing me like this. It's not out of vanity, I just don't want to look like how I feel you know?

Shell, you are doing really well! It’s so good to read about your progress and the forward plans you are making. It all sounds so much healthier than where you were a few months ago. I am very pleased for you.
Piper, thanks for your kindness. DH and I have had a quiet weekend and we are both feeling a lot better than we were a week ago. This week will be tough as the funeral is on Wednesday, but we are OK I think. I’m so sorry your mother got to you again. Good idea to not put yourself in a position where you are alone with her, although not sure how manageable this is on a day to day basis? I had to do the same with my stepmother when we got to a stage where the abuse could be turned on and off depending on whether she could get me alone. I have now cut all contact with her though. I do know what you mean about being concerned about your appearance. When my NM was at the peak of her powers here, and I was stuck in the house for so much of the time, I realised I’d neglected my own well-being when I was wearing really old clothes with holes in them and a raggy old pair of slippers. My hair seemed to be coming out in clumps too. In contrast, NM was smartly dressed all of the time. I’m not a vain person but it’s important to look after yourself, and somewhere along the way this aspect of self care had been swallowed up by my NM ‘s demands on me. In the run up to the wedding, can you schedule in some time to take care of yourself? A haircut, spa/relaxation day, facial, manicure etc? It doesn’t matter whether you feel you need them, but it will make you focus some time on yourself and make you feel more confident about your appearance.

Piper,
Have you tired meditation. Seriously! Just try to for 10 to 15 minutes. I do mind at night with music "Enigma" and I burn a white candle. The music is very soothing and the candle is the only light I use. White candles mean different things, but it is very good at cleaning out negative energy. Whether you believe that or not doesn't matter! What does matter is you being able to regenerate yourself emotionally and physically. Calming yourself and your stress down. Narcs are very good at draining people; therefore, we have to get good at refilling ourselves! I love Chris' idea about a day at the spa day. I lost a huge amount of weight caring for my own mother & I had terrible sores all over my body from my autoimmune disorder. As we care for them they suck the life out of us & we throw ourselves on the back burner. You really have to take better care of yourself. I know easier said than done. I think you should really try not to be left alone with your mom if you can help it. Great job for keeping to your boundaries! Hang in there you'll get through this! Hugs!!


Chris,
I have come a very long way & I am so proud of myself!

I am very sorry to hear that BIL & SIL took advantage of your mom. I hope some legal consequences can be done. If not, they will get what's coming to them--we always do-Good or bad!

The elderly seem to be targets for family, so call friends, and professionals. The sad part is most of them don't even know that they are being victimized. My brother victimized my mother & she really thought she was helping him, but really who needs two pairs of 300.00 dollar shoes...no one who doesn't work! It really is sad...but it happens everyday unfortunately!

My neighbor across the street had his grandmother buy him that house and 2 trucks and a jeep. When one truck broke down she bought him another truck and when he wrecked it she bought him a jeep. My neighbor's grandma tried to manipulate me into "watching over him." Of course, I told her that I had enough on my plate to worry about, but of course, she wouldn't hear of it! My neighbor is 23 to 25 yrs old and does work, so there is no reason for his grandma to buy him new cars, pay the mortgage or anything else he desires. I am sure her heart is in the right place, but it seems he is taking advantage of her! Like I said, it happens all the time!! It's just sad! You make sure you take care of yourself as well! Hugs!


You both will be in my prayers! 💚💜💙

Piper.....I think your 'job' should require more hours from you immediately.....maybe more days too so that you're no longer available to your NM for 1 hr stints never mind 4+ hrs. She's going to expect full time help from you soon and your health will only deteriorate from here. You and DH and your sister need Plan B and Plan C now to figure out what to do with NM as she continues to become more and more needy every day. Assisted Living with attached Memory Care would be your best bet. And NM will have no other choice IF you are not available to her anymore. When do you start looking after you? You sound like you're in a bad place emotionally which is taking a toll on you physically. Don't wait to be hospitalized before you make a decision to put yourself first. Maybe it's time to tell NM you're thinking about moving away and she needs to make other living arrangements? AL is a GREAT choice for so many elders these days! Sending you prayers and hugs.

Shell glad you are making progress in the house. Chris, good to hear you are feeling better.

My NM has been declining mentally....called me with a wild story about her place being renovated so she had to be moved to a new hotel. But the room was identical to her room at the other hotel and HOW DO THEY DO THAT? We saw her today and she's sounding congested in the lungs. But no fever or other symptoms so we shall see. She's talking like she's a youngster at 94+ and lots of residents there are 100. 🤐

Shell, Lea, EP and Chris: Virtual hugs to you all. 💙💚💜💖

This last week has been a ball buster!! So I'm playing catch up again!
Picked up NM from ALF early Monday morning for her Dr's appointment. Everything went well.
Although I truly just wanted to get her back to her lair ASAP, I took her to breakfast.
She almost seemed happy!!
Thank God!! It was the most pleasant interaction we've had in a long time!!

The party for my DH's clinic was last night. Things went great!!
My decorations were as I had envisioned and our band played great!!
My Fitbit logged over 20 thousand steps and 18 floors yesterday between setup, singing and dancing on stage, breakdown and cleaning up.
Today I have sat on my butt almost the entire day!
I may just do the same tomorrow!! Lol

Thinking of all of you Ladies!!
Prayers and (((hugs)))!!!

My new profile pic is from Mother's Day.
Mom wanted me to bring Norman (my dog).
And yes, it's the same dog as my previous profile pic. He's just had his spring hair cut! Lol

Jodi, you have given me a great start to Monday morning! Wanting to return your mother to her “lair” was so, so funny! And I love that your dog is called Norman! Such a human, serious, grown up name! I’m so glad you had a good party. We all need a lift like that at the moment I think, and that’s before you factor in NMs.

Today we have a really significant relaxation of lockdown rules. Indoor eateries can open for the first time since Christmas, and we can visit people in their homes, albeit with some restrictions. Outdoor eating has been allowed for the past month or so but as it’s been the coldest Spring here for decades that’s been a challenge too. Seemingly we are in a good place, and there are very few cases where we live, but the Indian COVID variant has started to pick up in the north of England, so our vaccination programme is ramping up further to try and suppress it. We are going to try and make the most of this freedom while it lasts, carefully and safely, as this thing isn’t over yet by any means. We all need some interaction with our friends and family, so I guess we need to find a compromise between safety and mental well being.

Jodi: Great profile pic!💙

Hey ladies. I haven't been up for posting much, but wanted to update here.

My brother had his cancer surgery yesterday. Unfortunately he is having a lot of bladder spasms and is in a lot of pain. This morning they increased the dose of his meds and he was finally able to better rest with pain going from 10 to 4. The plan was for him to be released home today with the catheter (for 2 weeks) but that has changed and he is not getting discharged today. I'm waiting to hear from his wife. Frustrating I don't have any hippaa rights here because I would have been demanding the doctor be called last night to adjust his pain control which wasn't working.

Meanwhile my mother and sister are there in a hotel. My mom has been a massive PIA for my sister and my sister is getting a real eye opening experience of my mother's decline. They have not been able to see my brother in the hospital at all due to the covid rules. (meanwhile mom and sister are fully vaccinated and my brother and his wife are not).... my mom and sister are scheduled to fly back to Texas tomorrow and won't be changing flights as they have already spent a lot of money.

I imagine my mom will be coming back here - likely Friday. During downtime my sister and I discussed my mom and my sister said she's been having some serious conversations with her- for one that if she didn't change her "lifestyle" she was going to end up in a nursing home. My sister was talking about my mom's refusal to do any kind of PT. I pointed out what she (my mom) needs is an ALF MC where she will have activities and a staff to deal with her dementia and she can't just change her "lifestyle"... my sister agrees. I also told her my mom could start with some hired help, but if she refuses then I will refuse to deal with her. I can't and won't take on multiple roles for my mom filling all her voids.

Basically I've made it clear to my sister that I am BURNED out and won't do more. She agrees with me- and said she will start talking to my mom about these issues. Feels good to have an ally on getting my mom OUT of here and into ALF where she belongs. Unfortunately we also both acknowledged my mom will be difficult like she always is, so this will not be easy.

Thanks for listening and letting me vent.

Piper, good to hear from you. Hope your brother is ok and gets the pain relief he needs. It’s good that your sister is now more on board with you and your mother’s issues. I feel from what you say that although it will be difficult, you will make things happen, now you have more support. Keep focused on what needs to happen, regardless of tantrums, emotional blackmail or any other manipulation.

Piper, sorry to hear about your brother's pain. I hope things improve quickly.
Glad you have your sister whose now understanding your NM a bit better. I think a regular ALF is her best bet, with MC also available when the time comes. She'd fight MC tooth and nail bc she's not that far gone yet. An ALF can be presented way differently and with her big ego at play, she may eat it up. Anyway, just a word from someone with an NM in MC now and who still says she belongs back in her old apt in the regular ALF bc there's nothing wrong with her. Eyeroll. Good luck with it all and her coming back on Friday

DH is being tested for a liver transplant right now which, if approved, can happen as early as Sept at the Mayo clinic in Arizona. We'd have to stay 6 weeks! Kaiser pays for airfare and hotel, we pay for transportation and food. The tumor ablation was not 100% successful and will have to be repeated again in a few months, and again when other tumors grow on his cirrhotic liver (non alcoholic cirrhosis is what he has). I feel exhausted after dealing with one issue after another with him since July 4 2019 (emergency pacemaker) and now this. Then there's the issue of my mother and what happens if she gets sick and how do I pay her rent during our stay in Az which could be up to 5 MONTHS if complications arise. Just a lot to think about. Plus I feel badly for DH who's been thru too much himself lately. God help us.

We took the great grandchild to meet NM on Sunday and she seemed happy, which was a change of pace. Something positive, thankfully.

Piper: I am sorry to hear of your brother's pain. I do hope that he was able to get some rest. Also I am glad to hear that you have support from your sister in regard to how difficult your mother continues to be. Stay the course.

Lea: Big prayers for your DH. I know that you ARE exhausted. I hope that you can get some rest when you're able. 💚

Lea, you and DH have been through A LOT. I'm so sorry the ablation didn't get everything. Has there been new growth or are they seeing something missed? I'm wondering if the next ablation in a few months might be more precise and get it all? Keep us posted on his testing for the transplant. IF he has to go that route keep in mind how well he did after his heart surgery, and iirc didn't the doctor tell you he would be a good candidate for a transplant if necessary?

How are you holding up? Are you able to get out and enjoy some things with DH? I'm glad you are enjoying your grandchild, and even NM seemed happy! That is a pleasant surprise. Also IF you and DH need to be away in Arizona for awhile then the staff will deal with your mom. You can still be reached by phone. Here is the thing, if you are unavailable, then you are unavailable, period. The truth is any one of us could become unavailable at any time if there was a health crisis, but the world would keep on spinning. So if you need to be in Arizona then NM's world will still keep spinning and be there when you get back.

Mine is coming back tomorrow afternoon. My sister has told me twice now we need to talk when she can do so privately. I'm thankful she is more on board, but I know my mother (as does she) and my mom is not going to willingly go to an ALF no matter how much we talk it up. Part of the problem (and I could KICK myself for this) is I moved her to a really nice condo. There is no ALF apartment that will compare. She's not going to want to take a step down (as she will see it) just to socialize with "old people" she doesn't want to be around.
In other words, she is going to be a nightmare no matter how much sense it makes.

I appreciate the support concerning my brother. By last eve his pain was manageable and he is going home today. He will have home health support for the catheter.