Caregiving for a narcissistic mother. Do we do it out of love or out of years of guilt and programming?

Piper, no new growth; they just didn't get ALL of the tumor with the first ablation, meaning it will continue to grow & need to go. Plus, with cirrhosis, the tumors are likely to continue to grow as the liver is diseased; it's a losing battle. Transplant is really the only 'answer' for DH. He seems to be a good candidate but only the full spectrum of testing will tell the story. Next week he has 4 days of tests scheduled.

I'm feeling stressed out, frankly. Had some bad dreams last night which were stress related. We are getting out and doing things, DH & I, yes. I am grateful to have my grandsons to keep my mind occupied, that's true. You are right in that the MC will deal with my mother, but that doesn't mean I won't have to get new POAs drawn up for my DD to intervene for me on NMs part should something happen while I'm gone. Just more details to think about and get straightened out. Remember: we COULD be gone for up to 5 months if complications arise with the transplant IF he gets approved.

Too bad your NM is coming back tomorrow. I am sure she will give you all sorts of hell about moving into an AL, why wouldn't she? There's 'nothing wrong with her' AND 'she's not old' either, plus, she's 'fine where she is', even though it's all at YOUR EXPENSE 100%. Women like this NEVER give a rat's arse who they're putting out or driving to the brink of insanity with their nonsense, because again, THEY are FINE and WONDERFUL and NORMAL, it's the REST OF THE WORLD that's INSANE. That right there is the issue, 100%, and there is no getting through to them as a result. It will likely take a meteorite to move your NM out of her comfy cozy condo unless you and your sister devise a plan to force her out. Remember: you two are smarter and sharper than SHE is. Period. Wishing you luck on that, fingers crossed.

So glad to know your brother is being released today, thank God. Continued healing is what I am praying for.

Thank you for the prayers Llamalover, I can sure use them.

Lea: You're very welcome. I am sorry that you had bad dreams. That's tough. Continued prayers.

Lea. Sorry to hearyour latest update with your husband. I know how hard it is to deal with our health and surgeries as a parent slides down the ladder of health. I have several surgeries such as rotator cuff that I am not even considering until after my son's wedding next year and I am through with my jaw. Even then I wonder how can I do some of them while my mother is still alive. I will hope the testing proves to be helpful and a suitable donor is found if that is what is determined to be needed for your husband

Riverdale, there are plenty of livers available; suitable donors are not a problem. If DH is approved for the transplant, we're going to AZ (or wherever we have to go) and that's that; however long it takes, it takes. My mother is in managed care & I'll just have to rest assured that she's being cared for where she's at and that my 2 kids will take care of everything while I'm gone, like Piper said. We have to do what WE have to do while our mother's are alive or not; at least they're not living with US and are cared for, one way or another! You have enough on your plate as it is with the jaw surgeries.

Thanks for your well wishes, I appreciate it.

Lea it's good to know that there are plenty of livers available. Please keep us posted on DH's testing. I'm praying he will be approved as soon as possible.

You are right, if DH gets approved you will be going for however long it's going to take. Your mom will deal one way or the other. It really sucks how these narcs suck the life out of us for so long that when some OTHER issue of importance comes up we're already spread so thin it gets really overwhelming. That's how it's been for me anyway, and I think you are spread pretty thin right now too.

I know this is easier said than done but try to focus on as much self care as you can right now. You know best what calms you, so try to practice those things daily.

Thanks Piper you are right. Sitting here at Kaiser now....got here 40 min early for DHs colonoscopy and endoscopy (for no good reason) at 6:55 am and he only drank HALF the lax bc he couldn't handle it. 😣 Who does that?? If they can't do the colonoscopy as a result, I'm gonna be pissed off big time! 🤐🤐

Lea I also hope they can do the colonoscopy! Was he going clear when he stopped with the lax? He got an early appointment so hopefully you aren't there all day.

Yes Piper, they did both the colonoscopy and endoscopy and we're back home at 10am. DH has some small varices in his esophagus from the cirrhosis but the heart meds he takes will keep them small and non problematic. Colonoscopy was clear. Next week is full of tests too. The Heptologist did the tests and said the Mayo Clinic is like being swept up on a river...you are on THEIR ride and doing as they say. One of her patients wound up in Az for 3 months and they decided to send him to the Mayo Clinic in Mn at the last minute for the transplant where he spent another 3 months. God give me strength. Plus, once DHs tests are complete, he'll have to go there in person (to Arizona) for THEIR testing and clearance. So we have a long road ahead to even know if the transplant will be an option.

Lea: Glad that your hubby's colonoscopy and endoscopy were able to be done. That stuff is gross to drink for a colonoscopy. I understand his reluctance, but it's necessary of course. For my last colonoscopy I drank the last bottle whilst only half awake. Too disgusting to be fully coherent.

Lea, I'm glad the tests were both done and there is nothing to worry about there. But as you say, this is going to be a long road from here to transplant. Have you told your mom, so she can plan to expect less from you as you have other things you need to deal with and testing for DH? How is your DH handling all of this?

I know the anxiety of worrying about the future and all the different possible outcomes, and I imagine you are pretty overwhelmed. Talk to yourself like you would talk to one of us on the board. Remember your tricks for staying in the moment, and also keep in mind that it's possible that things will go smoothly and fairly quickly, and that DH will be cured with the new liver before Thanksgiving. Your DH is a tough cookie and there is reason to feel optimistic that things are going to be fine.

It's the compounded stress that can really derail you. That's why I say to put a big boundary in place with your mother now and just tell her you can not be there as much, period. She is not the priority. YOU are, and your DH.

Mine came back yesterday and came down for dinner. She seemed happy (relieved?) to be back, but made sure to tell me what a great time it was, and how much my sister did for her! What she didn't know is I was in close touch with my sister during this whole trip, because I was concerned about my brother, so I knew what was going on and my mom was a complete PIA driving my sister crazy to the point my sister snapped a few times. If I wouldn't have been feeling anxious and full of dread and not wanting to get into anything right then, a part of me wanted to say-- Oh really? Yeah I thought her idea about you hiring an aid was a good and necessary idea too!, And she made a good point about a nursing home being a possibility too!... But I didn't say anything. I plan to have that talk after my son and wedding crew leave. It's too risky to make her angry before hand, I know how vindictive she can be so the talk will wait another 3 weeks. I just found it so typical of her. Always ready to pull a guilt trip. Another thing she doesn't realize is those games don't make me feel guilty anymore, they just make me angry and more distant.

Thanks Piper; I am using my own tricks to stay in the moment which is all I can really do. I have NOT told my mother a peep about anything. In fact, she has no clue DH even had the cancerous tumor. What for? So she can drive me even crazier than normal? She will be told nothing until the last possible moment; if we do go to the Mayo Clinic, she'll be informed the day before we leave. She has no memory to begin with, and if she did remember the details, she'd be calling and hounding me to death and making it all about her and how upset SHE is and blah blah. As usual. Every time I've told her anything about DHs health issues, I've lived to regret it. So not this time. She's been in a horribly foul mood lately anyway and we've had little contact, which is for the best. We are NOT going over there tomorrow b/c we need a break from the Sunday visits. I will tell her we
are babysitting one of the grandchildren. DH has a whole week of tests lined up starting on Monday or Tuesday, so he needs rest. DH is handling things like a trooper....as always. He has THE best attitude of any human being I've ever met, which makes things much easier for all of us.

I think you are wise to wait 3 weeks to talk to your NM yourself. Why create another sh*t storm before the wedding? We have to figure out what works for US with these women, not what works for THEM!

Lea, now that I think about it, you are right not to say anything to your mom until right before you leave. I don't know what I was thinking, I only tell my mother things when I have to also. Otherwise she will find a way to put the attention back on herself immediately which always feels like a slap in the face. I'm also glad you are pulling back on visits so you and DH can get some rest.

I didn't see my mom yesterday at all. She called to borrow something and DH took it over to her since I was busy. He said she seemed okay and I figure she's had a lot of socialization lately so I stayed away. I'm going to invite her to go along with us for lunch today. It's a very short walk away and I want to see how she handles it. I'm talking less than five minutes on a flat boardwalk.

Does anyone have plans for Memorial Day? I hope everyone is doing okay.

Piper, no worries. I figured you would re-think things.........our NMs are pretty much all alike with regard to telling them our business. NO CAN DO! LOL. Good luck today taking yours to lunch. Hope it will be bearable & she'll be in a decent mood. That's what I hope for when we go to visit mine. I miss the days of the beach and the boardwalk........living in Colorado there's none of that, but we do have the mountains.

So last night when I called NM, she went on a tirade for 20 minutes about how 'wrong' it is that she isn't living in her 'own home' and she 'doesn't belong' living in AL; she BELONGS in her Own Home. Never mind the fact that she doesn't OWN a home, that she's in a wheelchair 24/7, that she's incontinent, has more issues than Newsweek that the AL can't even really keep up with, and has fallen 72x. She kept up and up and UP with that line of angry-speak until I finally had to wish her a good night and end the 'conversation' as there is NO getting thru to folks with dementia. Not ONE HOUR later, my cell phone rings with a call from the nurse at the MC: NM fell out of her wheelchair AGAIN; leaning forward trying to PICK something up off the floor! This makes 73x falls now. But yeah, hey, you're right ma, you should be 'living in your own home', makes perfect sense to me! No injury, of course. And the band played on. And on.

Went over to see my mother yesterday for a couple of hours. I have to say we get on better now she’s not living with us. I caught a glimpse of that old selfishness though. She always used to buy loads of fruit when she was with us, and get through her ‘5 a day’ as recommended by the government health bunch. I noticed yesterday that her fridge was full of oranges and apples, with bananas and apples on a table to eat later. This is on top of the 3 full meals a day provided where she lives. I assumed she’d picked it all up on her daily shopping trips, which is what she used to do. But no - the place where she lives puts out a big bowl of fresh fruit each day for the residents to help themselves to. There are six residents, but my mother has clearly been helping herself to most of it, and I’m not sure if she’s left enough for everyone else. Since it’s a daily replenishment she doesn’t need to take so much, but it’s just typical of my mother to make sure she doesn’t run out, even if it means that others do. I don’t think this is about hoarding, I just think it’s about pure selfishness. Now I’m on the outside looking in, I can see that her selfishness was a big part of the problems of her living with us. The good thing is that it no longer impacts me directly and I can walk away.

Lea what do you say to your mom when she goes on about how she should be living "at home"? 20 mins is a long time to endure that nonsense. I take it she did not get hurt on her 73rd fall? Imagine trying to deal with those falls in your home?

Well I didn't see my mom yesterday either. I never got around to asking her if she wanted to go to lunch and we didn't go either. It was my DH who didn't want to go, which is rare, so I went along with it. He has more patience with my mom than I do so if he isn't feeling it, we aren't doing it. Besides I've said this before but I can't stand being alone with my mom, that is when she will really act out on me. I sent over some strawberries that DH dropped off and again she seemed fine. So now today- I AM feeling the pressure to see her so I will initiate something, probably have her over here to eat. That seems to be the go-to. There isn't much else we can do.

Chris, I'm glad things are better now that your mom doesn't live with you. I can not wait to have some distance and for my mom to be in care! Did you say anything about her taking the extra food? It could go bad and there is no reason if she can get it daily. Is she making friends there?
The main thing, is as you say- is if you don't like what she is doing you can walk away!

BTW- has the drama with your BIL & SIL died down? Are you and DH starting to put it behind you?

Piper, sorry you are feeling the pressure to see your mum. It is no use me saying it's self inflicted as I used to feel the same guilt and pressure. I did mention to mum about making sure there was enough fruit for others, but she just laughed - she has no concept of thinking of or empathising with others. The housekeeper had apparently noticed that the fruit had started to disappear more quickly than it used to, but that didn't stop my mother taking it " just in case". She has made "friends" with the other residents, but of course this will always be on my mother's terms. Regarding my MIL's funeral, we didn't go as my DH was adamant he would not sit through a fabricated account of his mother's life, given by SIL. None of my MIL's cousins nor her oldest friend were invited to the funeral, but my DH tracked them down and invited them to go in our place. They phoned DH afterwards with an account of the funeral. BIL and SIL's faces were an absolute picture when the uninvited friends and relatives walked in. The only other attendees were the pitchfork-wielding village yokels SIL had invited to chase us off the premises and out of town! SIL did indeed give her "tribute" at the service and for good measure gave it all again at the funeral wake afterwards, much to the boredom of everyone present. They were most surprised we didn't turn up and kept glancing guiltily over their shoulders the whole time in case we walked in. My BIL said nothing to anyone the whole time and just sat on his own, refusing to engage with anyone, revealing his complete inadequacy. SIL was wearing a huge hat - most inappropriate for a funeral but clearly designed for her to be the centre of attention. What a pantomime! We had a good laugh about it with friends and family when they told us afterwards. As far as the missing money, jewellery and other valuables are concerned, the solicitor is on the case and has asked them to account for it. She will be making them squirm. DH is ok. He knows he made the right decision and his MIL's other family and friends have been so supportive (as well as revealing more instances of BIL/SIL bad behaviour over the years that we knew nothing about). It's been good for my DH as the bonds with these people have really been strengthened, and that will really help them all, moving forward. Meanwhile, BIL and SIL will be sitting alone amongst the wreckage of their behaviour and toxic marriage. It really is a case of reaping what you sow.

Chris, 'funny' but my NM used to do the EXACT same thing with the fresh fruit when she lived in the regular ALF...........she'd put a whole load of it into her walker bin to bring up to her fridge and then never wind up eating it! There would be rotten bananas up there and mushy oranges, etc, but she'd just keep bringing in more and MORE every day to make sure she had 'enough' even if others wouldn't have any themselves! Selfish much? It's all part of what makes them narcs.

Disgusting the show your SIL and BIL put on for your dear MILs funeral/wake. Along with wearing a big show-off hat, nice and tasteless, but what else could be expected? I'm glad her friends & relatives were tracked down & invited to go; too bad they didn't capture the look on the in-law's faces when they arrived in a PHOTO!

Piper, the theme of my NMs misery this week is wanting to live in HER OWN HOME. What do I say when she's off on a rant? That obviously she's in no shape to live independently anywhere, with all the falls, the wheelchair situation, and the fact that she requires help with everything she does, all of which she disputes. It's a waste of energy is what it is, in reality. Her goal is to 'go home' which means to get OUT of there and to move in with me or with one of the 'family members' or whatever. To make her chronic misery known, in other words, and to lay a guilt trip on me and let me know how SAD she is, etc. This has been an ongoing theme for quite a while now, and the ED was talking to me about it as well. NM has pity parties for herself with anyone who will listen. Fact is, she will be miserable wherever she lives; she is lamenting her AGE and her CONDITION is what she's doing, I think, more than anything else b/c she's been in managed care since 2014. If she moved in with a 'family member' or whatever, nothing would change: she'd still be 'bored' but even more so, she'd still be in a wheelchair, still in pain, still requiring help 24/7, etc. THAT is the issue she's miserable about, imo, which cannot be changed. What she will not realize or address is the fact that when she alienates us with all this complaining and guilt-tripping, then nobody wants to deal with her, period.

Now she's angry with me, once again, and not speaking to me which is fine and dandy with me. I am not picking up the phone anymore to deal with the carrying on that ensues.........she can call ME and leave a voice mail, then I'll decide if I want to return the call. No she did not get hurt in the fall on Saturday night.

Piper: PS: I forgot to say that I also commiserate with NM and say I'm sorry she's feeling so 'sad' about her lot in life. I don't just ignore her feelings. And I also forgot to say that I sympathize with you feeling pressure today to see your mom; I feel it ALL the time. When there is only one person who bears the burden to deal with everything concerning these parents, of course we are going to feel the pressure to be the One who IS everything TO them. How can we not? Even though it's never enough what we DO do for them, and they never let us forget it, we still feel like we HAVE to do it. Ain't that the truth? :(

Right now I'm stressing out big time over whether to get NM into the SNF before the liver transplant or afterwards. Since we don't have a green light that we're moving forward with the surgery, I'm waiting. I know she will be MORE miserable with a roommate than she is now w/o one, but I think she will be happier in the SNF b/c it's bigger and has more activities and not 'only' dementia residents living there. She's running out of $$$ so it needs to happen, and I figure we have until January (her 95th birthday) before it's crucial she be moved. I just don't want to be in AZ and have to be faced with moving her, obviously.........so if it seems like we'll get the green light to go in Sept, I may need to get her moved in August. IDK.......it's a big burden on my mind right now. What do you think?

Lea, regarding moving your mum, I think you should just do it sooner rather than later. You know it's coming, whenever you do it now or later, but you probably have more "head space' to deal with it now. Ask yourself who could help you make this all happen, then enlist that help: other family, friends, medics, healthcare providers, etc. If you explain your own situation and also the impending surgery, you might find people will be even more helpful than usual. You've said it's a big mental burden for you, so obviously this won't go away until you sort it. If you leave it until later, it could become an urgent crisis and be even more difficult to deal with. It's not easy, I know, so I'm not offering this advice without knowing how hard it will be to see it through.

Lea, I agree with everything Chris said as far as moving your mom sooner rather than later. Even if DH doesn't have to stay in Arizona for long it will still be a huge pain to deal with moving your mom after your DH has surgery. I imagine you will want to come home for rest and to heal and not have a move on your plate.

Maybe your mom will like having a room mate more than you think? Do you have any say in who the other person will be? She's been solo since your dad died right? It's *possible* it could work out. Like if she can't figure out the remote maybe the other person would know what to do, or they could just babble nonsense to each other all day, complain together, make fun of the staff together....

Lea imagine if it did work, that could really take some pressure off you. Like you mentioned earlier it is SO much pressure to be the ONLY one dealing with a needy difficult elder. But if she doesn't like it-- too bad. She doesn't like anywhere so not much would really be changing in terms of her happiness.
It will interesting to see how your mom does with the change. Truly. Maybe she will be on "best behavior" mode to impress the room mate?
No matter what happens, the move needs to happen, and the best time for that to happen given your life is before DH's trip imo.

So, I ended up not seeing my mom yesterday either. She did not put any pressure on me so I just didn't initiate anything. She needs a med refill so I offered to do that for her today, and she then asked us to come over later for dinner and I said okay. So... I can only guess that she was worn out and sick of people herself the last few days. I can't think of any other reason for this subtle shift. Put it this way, I know it's not because she suddenly had an epiphany and was thinking about my well-being. It must be that she was worn out.

Chris- omg your SIL, her fake speeches and the HAT! What a piece of work they are, and you are so right- you reap what you sow. In the end they have been exposed for the vile creatures they are while your DH did the right things and had proper closure along with the respect of others.
I'm glad it's past you now.

In other news, I finally got my hair cut. I can still notice the hair loss but it looks better. I'm trying to feel positive about the upcoming wedding and really hoping it's a fun time for all. I miss my son so much and can't wait to see him. So I've been planning for things. Taxi's, the wedding cake, and figuring out the after-party. I'm trying to shift from my usual anxiety ridden worrying what's going to go wrong mode to relax and have fun for once mode. I'm telling you guys I have never had to do this kind of mental work before just to chill out! But each time I talk to the people coming, especially the bride as we plan things I feel that old happy person inside me and I want to have fun times again.

Piper, I think some of what you mentioned in the last paragraph in your post could be to do with social anxiety. There was a feature on this in the news a few weeks ago. It explained how, after over a year of restrictions and living “differently “, people are feeling anxious about reconnecting with others face to face, and it’s nothing to do with worries about catching COVID - we’ve just lost some of the ability to do things in person. At least you’re aware of how you’re feeling and are taking steps to deal with it. I can sympathise. We have an old college reunion in July, and are stressing about it a little. I keep telling myself we’re all older, balder, hairier, fatter, thinner, greyer, saggier etc so shouldn’t worry about our appearances. I’m going to try and go to it with no great expectations so that hopefully it will be fun and we will share some great memories.

Chris & Piper: I talked things over with DH last night with regard to moving my NM to a SNF sooner rather than later. We did the math; she has enough $$ to last 18 months in the Memory Care she's at now. (Her $$$ is in my name and I am managing it; she qualified for Medicaid in 2020). More than I had originally thought. We both feel certain she's going to totally melt down with a roommate and having to share a bathroom (in particular), not to mention 2 tv sets blaring, etc. She HATES women with a passion; I would have NO say in who they pair her up with in the SNF, nope. We've always felt she's much better off in the AL than she will ultimately be in the SNF. So I think we'll leave her where she's at for now, but I'm going to fill out the Medicaid application which I have on my desk and have it ready to go so I can get that stress off of my mind. The goal has always been to use up her $$ with private pay AL before going into the SNF with Medicaid. She's at the point now, though, where she is more suited TO SNF care b/c of all of her mobility/falling issues combined with dementia and health issues. A real Catch-22

As the tests are being done on DH, we'll have a better idea if he's a good candidate for the transplant. They're saying they'd like to see his ejection fracture raised, which is nearly impossible to actually ACCOMPLISH, so IDK. If the Mayo Clinic is going to use that for criteria, he will fail. They also do not like that he had the triple bypass, but his cardiologist has cleared him on our end. Again, not important to the Mayo Clinic. He will have to fly down there once the tests are completed to be evaluated by THEM for a final decision. Like DH said, we have 3 young men here to actually DO the move for my mother, when the time comes, so DH himself would not have to be involved at all if he were recuperating or whatever. So for now, we'll put the SNF move off. Part of me thinks we should do it asap, the other part wants to put it OFF as long as possible due to the fallout that WILL occur. If she thinks she's so 'miserable' now, just wait........she ain't seen nuthin' yet methinks. She has SO MUCH personal attention from a large staff caring for 20 residents and still she's 'miserable' and in a horrid mood 90% of the time. Right now I just want to focus on DH and getting him from point A to point B.

It again amazes me just HOW much heartache and trouble and stress ONE person can cause. Right Piper? :(

Piper, glad you had a longer break from NM than you were expecting. She was probably worn out, like you said, rather than taking YOUR health into consideration. That's laughable, really. The only time my NM is ever happy is when I tell her I'm not feeling well. Truly. I often tell her that JUST so she'll lighten up and sound happy. Nothing like having your mother thrilled to hear you're sick, huh?

Lea, understand where you're coming from. You have a plan, and it's a good idea to have the forms all filled in and ready to go, for when you need them. Good also that you have others that could get the move done for your mother when the time comes, which will keep you out of the direct firing line. You could then delegate a lot of this work whilst managing the process dispassionately. You know your mother won't be happy wherever she is, but you'll be optimising her situation with the funds available at the time.

Thanks Chris. I know it's a no-win situation no matter what I do. I'm just so sick & tired of the whole mess I could scream, quite honestly. I am (for once) planning to delegate MOST of the work of moving NM to the 3 young men in my family this time as DH has moved the folks 4x already. Enough is enough.

Lea, Piper and Chris: Virtual hugs to all of you.💜

OMG! I can't believe it's been 3 weeks since I have checked in!

Now that Moms AFL and my Aunts MC have started allowing them to leave the facilities all Hell has broken loose!!!

I am now taking my NM to all of her Dr appointments ( 3 in the last week and more to come).

My Aunt has multiple issues and I have hired her friend who is an Uber driver to take her to and from all of her appointments. He's been an absolute blessing and my hero!!

Piles of forms and phone calls!!
(Dare I say it?? I'm starting to miss quarantine!!)

Tons of company coming!
My brother and his wife will be here on Saturday and bringing a couple of friends with them.
NM insists on coming to stay with us so she can spend time with my brother too. I don't have the energy to fight with her.

I have made it clear to her that they are not gonna want to sit around and watch TV!
Her response was "Well they won't have to sit with us!" US??

I swear if she complains about the shower mat hurting her feet or that my bath towels are too big, I am gonna loose my sh*+!!

I hope you're all doing well!!
I have a lot of catching up to do!!😘

Most of us did NOT know they were Narcs!If we did we would have ran for the hills so long ago!With the mixture of dementia,the mask falls.This is who they really were ALWAYS!

6 days of my brother, SIL,their best friends(2) and NM.
I guess I was mistaken to think that my brother came here to visit our Mother.
The last week consisted of me making sure everyone was fed in the morning and then my brother and crew would take off, leaving me alone with NM all day. Then making sure everyone was fed dinner.
The zingers from my NM started from the moment she walked in my front door to the moment I took her back to AFL this morning!
Too many to recount them all.
I am emotionally exhausted!!
The energy it takes to bite your tongue and hold back your feelings is draining.
Piper,
Praying for your brother!!!
Thinking of you ALL!!
We are all in this together and I feel blessed to have you all as a sounding board!!
You're ALL amazing!!😘

Jodi: Wow! That was BOLD of your brother, SIL, their friends and your mother. The fact that you had to be the chef - good grief! No wonder you are exhausted. Get some rest.💚