Today I had my first appointment with an actual therapist (not a counselor).
Even though one hour wasn't long enough to spew out everything I need to talk about, this woman completely picked up on 2 truly major points.
1) Even ONE of the stressors I have been dealing with over the last year is more than enough to warrant therapy!
2) I have been the "caregiver " for everyone in my family since I was 12 years old!
She asked me what I do for myself?
I had absolutely no answer!!
Hence therapy!! Lol
Caring for a narcissistic LO is a labor of love!
Not because they will love us back, but because we need to love ourselves!!
How do you keep caring selflessly for your selfish LO?
What do you do for yourself?
(((Hugs)))
And if she doesn't like that arrangement, then you'll be happy to arrange placement for her in ASSISTED LIVING.
Good luck standing your ground!
No matter what crap things my kids have to say about me, and I'm sure there ARE things, they can never say things like I'VE had to say about MY upbringing, that's for sure. I, like most of you, I'm sure, have BROKEN that horrifying cycle of dysfunction I was raised with and I'm sure my mother was raised with. It has to end somewhere.
I know I haven't been a perfect mother by any stretch, but I also know I have a GOOD relationship with both of my kids and a good relationship with my 5 step kids too, thank God. It took work, too, and wasn't something that I was 'entitled' too just 'because' I was a mom, right?!
Also, I’ve definitely seen a tendency for the older generation in my family to be unable to deal with or acknowledge mental illness. One of my cousins spent most of his adult life living in secure accommodation due to mental illness. I only saw him once after he was sectioned, and that was at my wedding nearly 30 years ago. His mother, my aunt, said I was one of the few people who ever asked about him at family gatherings. Everyone else just brushed his existence away. Sadly he died in March after a short illness. I really believe that being institutionalised for most of his life cut short his life expectancy by at least 25 years. Only a handful of people from my family acknowledged his death too, it was tragic and very sad. I do feel though that the younger generation are much more open about mental health and that does give me hope.
When my younger son was going through depression and needing help, which I was thankful to find him a therapist and group therapy, I begged my mother to tell me what she was diagnosed with way back in 1978. I said I needed to know so I could help my son (her grandchild) she didn’t even want to talk about it. I said was it depression? She said yeah I guess it was something like that. I really don’t know she said.
She never wanted any help so she didn’t receive any help.
I allow my girls to live their lives as they see fit.
I love them with all of my heart but I don’t make decisions for them.
Not only is it not my place to make any decisions for them, people do not learn appropriate skills in life if everything is done for them.
I will always support my kids but I want them to know the joy that comes from being independent.
I am glad it became common for women to work in later years.
I truly feel that the ‘good old days’ were not always so good.
Women were solely dependent on their husbands.
I bet a large portion of women had unfulfilled dreams and I wonder how many of them took out their frustrations on others, especially daughters who worked during their lifetimes.
Please stop killing yourself, especially since she doesn’t appreciate it.
It is perfectly normal for you to want to place her in a facility.
If she won’t go and she can afford to hire someone, let her pay for her care. If she mistreats them, they will likely quit working for her, unless they really need the job.
Yes, that is another issue with many in older generations.
They believe that all care in facilities is subpar. Sure, some places are better than others. It takes research to find a suitable facility but it is worth it!
Good for your uncle!
My mom’s brother didn’t want to go into the nursing home.
He wanted to remain living in his two story house.
When he could no longer go up and down the stairs, he moved into his basement. It was only partially finished, no shower. He ended up getting a bad UTI and sepsis.
Then he said that he would hire a full time caregiver. His children worked full time. They had always explained to him that they would not be his caregiver.
His daughter told him, “Dad, you can’t afford a full time caregiver. So, you will be going to a NH.” He finally agreed to go. He lived there for two years until he died at age 96. He had Parkinson’s disease just like mom does.
My uncle lived in New Jersey. My cousin found a NH for him. They called hospice at the end. He received good care.
Mom’s 87-year-old brother just made the choice to go into long-term care and is extremely happy because he feels safer and is around a lot of guys his age. Mom doesn’t understand why he would want to leave his home full of steps. Her mind only remembers bad nursing homes that she will do anything To not be a part of.
She doesn’t understand that he is not being monitored for any medical condition. He just lives there and may get some help, if needed. She thinks he will go home at some point, when he gets better.
Sad she can’t see the benefit of her doing the same, although she has zero $ and a reverse mortgage.
I couldn’t agree more with getting a diagnosis for dishonest people is impossible.
What would it take for an accurate diagnosis?
If a person conceals info, the therapist doesn’t have enough details to have a clear picture of what is happening.
I have often wondered if they were secretly filmed or recorded and it was played back for them, would they deny their actions? Most never publicly admit anything.
Let me just say, that they have no issue pointing out others flaws, so they appear to know behaviors. So, how can they not recognize it in themselves?
Dishonest people always insult psychiatrists. They would rather say that they don’t know what they are talking about.
Piper,
Good luck to your mom with Uber! Geeeez, kind of sad.
My 98 year old cousin won’t give up driving, then tells off the cops when she gets tickets. Her grandson gets embarrassed because he’s a cop!
She has a shuttle that runs from her senior apartment complex but she hates it because she says she has to leave too early for her appointment.
God I'm SICK TO DEATH of these NMs today, esp after reading the foul things yours has said to you, EP, about being 'pathetic' for seeking out counseling. "If only" these PATHETIC women would have asked for such help THEMSELVES so long ago, perhaps WE could have been SPARED some of their vitriolic hate? Oh no, but of course not, they could never have broken the almighty SILENCE rule and stopped the dysfunctional cycle dead in its tracks! Nope. Not them.
Just sayin'.
Our parents generation was very ‘hush hush.’
My parents did the same thing regarding my brother’s drug use. They kept it to themselves.
I followed their example for years. After my brother had his accident and I went to see him in the hospital, a wonderful nurse in the hospital told me to go to meetings held for family members.
There were parts of my childhood that were incredibly confusing because no one said a word.
I knew something was wrong but I didn’t know what until I heard specifically about his drug use.
Our parents didn’t know how to speak about private issues. It’s sad.
Our generation broke cycles of secrecy. Most of our parents still didn’t speak openly about personal matters. We have to remember that they were instructed not ‘to air dirty laundry’ outside of the family.
In our parents generation, it was common for them to see any form of therapy as weakness or they were afraid of being called ‘crazy.’
There is still a stigma attached to mental health issues but not nearly as bad as in their day. There shouldn’t be any stigma attached to mental health.
One of her many cutting and hurtful remarks to me was when I was in counseling. After she called me "pathetic" she had to remind me -- "I know you better than any psychologist" undercutting any encouraging words I might be getting from a therapist.
I was in my late 20's when she said that and here I am at 58 still remembering it. The damage these narcs do is immense.
I'm just glad to see many of us have stepped back for self preservation. My mom has an appointment this afternoon with her PCP for a physical, and I'm not going. She's going by Uber. Miss "independence" can strut her independence all she wants, until she can't. My husband asked me last night if I was going to offer to take her, and I said no. There is nothing going on with her now (aside from dementia) and I'm not going to try and oversee this stuff anymore unless she requests something specific or a doctor contacts me. In recent years she's been all about "her privacy", well - you got it. I also told him on this Uber stuff that there will come a point when she can't use it, so until something demonstrates that she can't -- let her Uber.
Aoi- I thought your suggestion to Cascia to picture all of us behind her when she needs strength dealing with her NM by thinking of our avatars was so good it prompted me to add one. I used a pic I took a couple months ago when I managed to get myself out for a walk. The fog under the pier seemed appropriate and I'm sure I don't need to explain that to anyone here!
The show-timing topic should be an entire chapter in a book about dealing with demented narcs. It should be taught in medical school! I'm positive my mom's dementia started not long after her stroke in 2016, but she was (and still is) capable of expertise level show-timing.
Some of you know this, but before my mom moved here, she lived in a different city 8 hours away and spent a considerable amount of time with her friend Shirley. Shirley DID notice my mom's show-timing, and also that my mom was becoming increasingly more dependent on her. THAT is when the talks started about moving closer to me. I did not know it at the time, but my mom's first choice and what she was going for was to latch onto Shirley. Shirley (rightfully) did not let that happen. She became my mom's biggest cheerleader on making the move.
It was only many months later after my mom's move was a done deal and I was firmly on the hook did the truth start to trickle out from Shirley to me. In fact I got really angry that this was kept from me, and felt manipulated (I was). I'll spare that story, it's in my post history somewhere, but one of the things Shirley told me was that when she really paid attention to my mother, when they were with other friends especially, my mom would fake like she understood something when Shirley knew full well she didn't, and my mom would use this fake laugh like she just "got" what someone said when she really didn't have a clue. My mom still does those things, including the fake laugh, but it's more advanced and obvious now. My point is she was doing this in 2017 -- Shirley knew -- I had no clue. I just wasn't paying close enough attention on my visits which would last about a week. I was too busy counting down the days. My mom also had a neurologist in that town who she went to after developing post stroke epilepsy. He didn't have a clue either on any mental decline.
A couple months here, and I saw it myself. I was horrified and terrified, like what in the hell did I just do??? So when my mom had to find a new neurologist here I made sure to go with her, prepared. While I distracted my mom with her paperwork I had to sneak out of her eyesight like some ninja to get a note to the neurologist listing what I had been observing, and ended it with "I feel my mother needs a thorough cognitive assessment". To this day I am fortunate to that doctor because she got my mom to agree to neuro-psych evaluation.
My mom agreed, I'm sure, because she believed she would "pass" with her usual BS show-timing. Well, I am here to tell you those tests can NOT be fooled. Six hours over two days. Even when we went in together to get the results and recommendations my mom was still confident and even arrogant. I will never forget her reaction as the doctor went through the results and even worse the recommendations. One was that she not live alone, unsupervised. Another was that she not drive.
My mom got so mad, and so defensive the mask came right off. So much so it was included in the final report. She now "HATES" that doctor and vows she will never go back. So, for anyone who needs to get around show-timing, request the neuro-psych evaluation.
Beatty, my mum's demands for assistance always start with "I'll let you do.. x, y or z for me" as if she is conferring a great favour on me by letting me do her jobs for her. Such entitlement!! Taking your example, I shall now respond by saying " no thanks, it's fine, you do it."
One day when I was at her house 6 months before she passed, she was whining at me about something and scolding at me. We were expecting a phone call from her doctor and when the doctor called her whole demeanor changed. She sounded all weak and frail and tried to whip up some tears that she didn’t feel good and needed some medicine. Always wanting a painkiller for a sore toe or hurt back. The doctor always said no and told her to take Tylenol.
This happened on a regular basis the last couple years of her life.
Beatty, yes!! The stigma was huge back then. They didn’t want to talk about their problems. My mother’s mother was the same way. Everything was a big secret. Don’t tell anyone anything!!!
My father was an alcoholic and I would tell my mother to go to alanon. She said no she couldn’t do that. She might see someone she knows!! She didn’t want other people knowing her business.
Same. I feel my Mother missed opportunities to be dx that possibily could have helped.. Stigma was huge. Not called the Silent Generation for nothing!
I can't even imagine having to deal with what we now know as Dementia/Alzheimer's without a proper diagnosis!!
That's exactly why your insight is so valuable!!
Thank you so much!!
Silence
I am getting better at this.
I don't know when, but something just snapped. Some cord that kept me emotionally tied to the "I want you to..." or "I have a job for you...".
Now, I honestly don't give a rat's tail about whatever the request is. Just don't care. You want it - then WANT it. Or you DO it, or you HIRE someone to do it. You wish... then WISH it. Send your wishes out to the universe: on a star, to the moon, with the flying pigs in the sky. Wherever they fly they do not enter my real world.
Maybe I am being the self-centred one now???
In 1978 she was 54 years old and definitely SHOULD have gotten some kind of diagnosis but never did. She was in a facility for mental health and stayed there for 30 days. The reason she did not get a diagnosis is because she DIDN’T TALK about anything. She didn’t talk about the past, present, or future. How can you diagnose anyone when they WONT talk or share their life story or get a glimpse on what is going on in their head??
I feel that was the only opportunity my mother ever had for a proper diagnosis and instead of it being an opportunity, it was a MISSED opportunity.
So I guess what I am saying is that unless your mother or father open up and talk to professionals, they will never get a diagnosis. We do the best that we can as caregivers. We all deserve a big pat on the back for everything we have done for our NM. We should get a MEDAL for everything we have done.
If your LO gets a diagnosis, you are very fortunate. I just feel that if my mother had a diagnosis, perhaps she would have gotten the help she needed. A diagnosis is half the battle. I truly believe that the right medication could have helped my mother way back when she was 54.
I hear you loud n clear on the racist nonsense too. NM will tell you she doesn't have a racist bone in HER body either (she hates all ethnicities equally). Snicker. My dd has gotten to the point where she cant even talk to her because NM loves to throw out derogatory gay slurs which irks her no end. Actually, I can't think of ANYONE she really likes. Everyone has a nasty nickname like The Big Fat One (this from The 200 lb Woman) or The Cross Eyed One. Everyone has so many flaws except her.
That is vile for your NM to call her GRANDCHILD a half breed, and worse yet, to feel JUSTIFIED in doing so, as only a true narc could. It's like mine saying if it weren't for my father, she would've had children and grandchildren of "her own." I'm adopted. Some sh*t just can't be taken back once it's said. Just gotta step back and disengage.
Llamalover, thank you. I am JUST now feeling better and finally ate something after 2 days! Took a shower too and feel human again😁
Jodi, kudos to YOU for starting such a fantastic thread! It would be fun to be together in one room, hook boy, what a chat THAT would be 🤣
The fact that we're here on this thread (over 1k now), is in my mind a testament to our resilience!!
We have refused to be victims!
We are survivors!!
This incredible group has given me so much advice, insight, inspiration and support!!
Lord how I wish we could all get together in one room!!
We may be at different stages of our journey, but we stand together!!
I LOVE IT!!!
(((Hugs)))😘
Thank you. I got to the conclusions you just read the hard way 'round. Like you, I've just recently allowed it to make contact with my deeper gray matter.
The NM group were talking today about Nmamas and their ability to charm the socks off of just about anyone including seasoned professionals. Although the attempt itself is a red flag, our gifted NMamas have been at this for a very long time. Just as they know how to push our buttons, they also know how to unpush buttons on other people that release what I like to call "golden keys". They know how to "showtime" and for the most part, I think they love it which leads me to believe that all or most of the hytristonics performed as memory discombobulation and physical ailment are, indeed, false. Mom has been tested and retested for everything under the sun but the tests haven't revealed anything we didn't already know. None of her doctors have even begun to suggest mental screening. I've spoken to several of her health care workers, nurses and doctors concerning mental instability. I've done that right in front of mom which gets me the death-glare/murder-by-stink-eye and she's screamed over the phone while I've made appointments for her: "Don't pay any attention to her! She's trying to get me comitted!!" You'd think just that would raise a red flag, but no. It doesn't. According to her neurologist, she's got "unspecified anxiety" and mild cognitive impairment. Of course, if the neurologist would spend more than 7 minutes with her, other things might become apparent.
Mom's never been stable. I walked away at 22 years of age to take a job far away first, then get married, then started a family. To this day she interprets that as "running off". Each time she mentions that, I ask her "at 22, don't you think I might have been starting my own life?" Her answer is consistently " you ran off and abandoned your dad and me. You could have kept your job here and married one of your 1000 boyfriends but you had to run off and leave us and marry that Port-O-Rick-Ann and have a half-breed child." My family, what there is remaining, believe her and that there was some other, evil reason I "ran off". I haven't yet found out what that might be, beyond whispers that stop as I enter the room.
This comes from a woman who swears that there is not a racist bone in her body and people believe her.
So I completely understand the worst case scenario that plays out in your head, lealonnie1. I get it, all too well.
Bless you. Hope you rest well, if you read this in the early sunlight, I hope you had a good night. 🌹💖💐🤗🌷🌺🐰
This. I've never heard it summed up so perfectly. Phew. Incredibly insightful words right there
And, "Cascia, and the rest of us, you aren't the problem. You never have been. You aren't even a small portion indirectly contributing to the problem. We can't ever make things right or okay for our mothers. All we can do is our best to keep them safe."
Amen. I think I'm just NOW realizing this. My dad was "the problem". Then he died and now I'm "the problem". Truth is, SHE'S been the problem all along. As hard as I've tried, I've been unable to make things right or okay for her and now I'm sick to death of trying.
Hugs and a whole bunch of gratitude to everyone.
Tonight I'm waxing serious. And although I'm addressing Cascia, tonight, I really want everyone reading to know I'm thinking about you, have 98% caught up to current and thank you.
Cascia
What I'm about to say, I don't say lightly: Whatever happiness you earn, you earn. It's yours to keep in whatever way you choose to keep it. It can't be trivialized, marginalized, run over by a beast or guilted into non-existence. You earned it. Your mother is ENVIOUS of it BECAUSE it's yours and not hers. Her state of mind dictates that all joy should belong to her. Twisting what you say has a similar motive. All things that are valuable, should and ought to BELONG to your mother in her reality. It's the narcissist sense of entitlement that is sitting, squarely and without a license, in the driver's seat. Narcissists cannot live and let live. Whatever another has, they want for themselves and if they cannot have it they belittle it. In my experience, they are attempting to convince themselves that it isn't worth having while they are cutting it to ribbons. The fact that you're there to witness it is more than icing on the cake, it's a necessary tool that provides validation for the deconstruction of your positive experience that they cannot have/own/possess because it is YOUR experience and they envy that it cannot be exclusively THEIRS. All joy, all positive experience, all things in general OUGHT, in their minds, belong to them.
So, based on that you might think that narcissists had a rough time getting their needs met as kids and that's why they want to possess everything. Although it may be true that getting needs met was an issue, that is not, entirely, the driver of the narcissist train. If it were, each of us here would be narcissists. Let that sink in for just a sec. Like so many diseases of the mind, narcissism is a product of both nature and nurture. The traits are shared by every tyrant in history. Each of these people sought to own/possess everything in their path and everything they learned about. It is an insatiable hunger. Even when the narcissist gets what they want, they tire of it quickly and are often annoyed by it.
Cascia, and the rest of us, you aren't the problem. You never have been. You aren't even a small portion indirectly contributing to the problem. We can't ever make things right or okay for our mothers. All we can do is our best to keep them safe.
I hear you and I so want to be able to give you the tools to fix the problem that's causing you so much anguish. All I can do for now, is give you the small comfort of knowing that you aren't alone and narcissism is our common enemy. Know this: We all know that you are doing your ultimate best. When she starts in on you, picture us standing behind you, literally and figuratively. Picture our little avatars, the curly, black, dog, the tan pup with a tiara, The stylish girl in the golden cap, the turquoise bubbles, "B", "S", "T" and two "E"s , the lovely pastoral, green field, the pensive Husky, the colorful heart quilt block, the curious Llamas, the bobcat and the blue hare. We are united on your behalf. We've got your back.
Jodi, your mother is a big fat liar, just like mine! Good luck to her figuring out how to buy a car and then driving it to see the ingrate daughter who never Visits! Oh, and the difference between a Picasso painting and a narc is a Picasso is worth millions and people line up for hours to see them. And a narc? Worth nothing and people flee like scared rabbits to AVOID seeing them. 🤣
What DH and I were talking about earlier is how outraged I feel over her expectation that I uproot my whole life, renovate my whole house, move my DH into the lower level, so I can move her in here. In a wheelchair, completely immobile, in diapers where she has to be changed in BED in the wee hrs of the morning by aides due to all the FALLS, the 32 falls she's taken in MC ALONE the past 22 months.....meaning I'd have to call 911 each time to pick her up! DH can't pick up 200 lbs of dead weight, nor can I, so just that alone! Oh, and I'd have to renovate the shower to remove the tub, the toilet to make it higher, put bars in the shower, etc. Plus I'd have to heave her in there and wash her, dry her, etc. Who expects this from a soon to be 64 yo daughter with bad arthritis? A narc, that's Who! So the next time SHE calls ME in a foul mood about the nerve I have not moving her in here, THIS is the talk we're gonna have. Which will go in one ear and out the other, naturally. I'm right about at the end of my rope now.
And wait till she gets to the SNF and gets quarantined for 2 weeks and then moves in with a roommate! Looks like I'll REALLY be The Devil then, huh?
I think some of mine crossed over to the *dark side*. LOL