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Death is tough for a family. But I can't Imagine living a life time and all some family can speak of was that person's death and how they died.
It took me years and years to finally learn about my sig-other's relatives' life, who had passed on decades ago. All anyone would talk about was the funeral. For years, all I heard was the funeral, who went, who didn't go, what food was served afterwards, the burial site, the funeral home, etc. Yes, death is a milestone, but there were many more wonderful milestone that some how got erased in so many minds.
First I am nurse, second I had Melanoma 23 yrs ago. Very familiar with it. He was not taking chemo it does not work for Melanoma. They use immune therapy and radiation. My mom is a nurse and was present through most of the year with him. He was having progress and we both spoke with neurologist and saw the last MRI. He became more disabled from the radiation and his wife did not want him like that. As she said to my face, also Melanoma treatment has come a long way and not a death sentence anymore when it spreads. He had more time and it was not his wish to die without food or water. He wanted to be home with his son. I understand when someone is on their deathbed, he was not.
I don't see this as the fault of Hospice. Maybe by the time they got him he was transitioning. Morphine and other drugs are given for comfort. Water and food is stopped because the body is shutting down. If the family felt there was foal play they should have paid for an autopsy. Melanoma kills. Very few survive it especially when it hits the brain. All chemo was doing was extending his life. Unless u were there 24/7 and were able to talk to the doctors you really have no idea what was going on. Maybe your brother wanted to fight, but chemo no longer was working.
My brother was 48 he was fighting Melanoma that had only spread to the brain. He was having treatment and there was progress with immune therapy and radiation, he had already made it a year. His wife had POA and did not want to continue because she felt he was a burden. Even after he told her he wanted to fight to the end and at home. He was talking, eating and coherent. Just was weak and agitated from all the drugs she was giving him at home. Plus she was already starving him at home (Adult protective services is investigating) he kept saying his stomach hurt. She told the doctors he is declining. Next minute he is in hospice and drugged up, no food or water and we never got to say goodbye. I and my mom are nurses. It was horrific watching him at his young age die of dehydration. Disgusting and cruel. .
This is an old post. It needs to be taken down. People who believe Hospice kils aren't going to change their minds and those who support Hospice will continue to support.
I don't know, maybe it's just me, but when mom agreed to go into hospice, *they* NEVER administered any drugs directly to her other than 1 Tylenol suppository.
*I* was the one who gave mom the morphine, the Haldol and the Ativan. Hospice only made those drugs available to me for use to give my mother COMFORT at the end.
On the first day I started mom on the EOL comfort meds, I had left her alone for 1/2 an hour to go and take a shower. I asked her before I went "How're you doing mom? You OK if I go to take a shower?" She answered me "Yup, I'm fine. Go take your shower, I won't go anywhere" (she said that last with a smile at me).
In that mere 1/2 an hour time, by the time I got back to her, she had a look of ABJECT TERROR on her face... I asked her "Mom, what's wrong?" She said to me "Something is wrong, I don't feel so good..." She was gasping for breath. I could see her heart pounding against her chest. She was going through oxygen starvation. She was beginning her "transition".
Thank God I had the meds from hospice on hand! I just said to her "Don't worry, mom, hospice gave me the medicine for you for this" and started her on the combination of drugs to calm her and ease her breathing. It only took about 20 minutes for her breathing to calm, and she put her feet up and went to sleep. It was 4 days until she actually passed, but it was peaceful. She never had that horrible look on her face again. Ever.
If you don't want to engage hospice for yourself or your LO, that's fine, but please. Stop spewing this nonsense about "hospice kills". I get when people are in deep grief, they are looking for someone to blame, but enough is enough with this.
I myself would feel far guiltier if I had allowed my mother to suffer needlessly, rather than take the extremely low chance that hospice care - EOL comfort care - might - MIGHT - slightly lessen my mother's life. If I had had to see that look on my mother's face for the duration of those last 96 hours of her life, I would never be able to get it out of my head.
Why is this still coming up? My mom was 99 and had aspiration pneumonia that was not responding to antibiotics when she was prescribed and given dilaudid and haloperidol, there was no more "LIFE 2 LIVE".
I am not sure what you mean by overdosing...meaning how much. But hospice usually gives very small doses (strict with that) to ease pain, discomfort, and (recently learned) coughing due to lung cancer.
@LivinginTX: Like someone else mentioned, hospice means no more doctors, just comfort. I don't think they should have "stopped" her food if she was fine eating. That part I don't agree with. Also sometimes doctors give a broader time span, they told my father 6 months...it was 6 weeks!! The day we received the news from the oncologist about how bad it was, they told me we should look into hospice. I was like, "he's not ready for that." That was on a Thursday. The following Monday, I had called hospice. It can change at any moment. He had esophageal cancer. It's just a guess. Everyone is different and depending on the type of cancer and the aggressiveness of it. Sounds like she might have had lung cancer mentioning the fluid build up. What I am learning from that is that they give you morphine to help with the cough as well as pain and let nature take its course. Your Aunt I assume is elderly? Age makes a difference too. My mother being 88 yrs old, there was no other option, too old to try anything else. Now with my mother, I am well versed on how it works and take it one day at a time. Tomorrow is never promised.
If they had more life to live they wouldn't be on hospice. Let's get real here. It's not a badge of honor to see how much pain the human body can take before it finally gives out.
livingintx, really now, why would Hospice want to kill a paying client? Medicare pays Hospice for their work, and once the client passes, the pay stops.
If you still feel your Aunt was "killed" by hospice, did you call the police? If not, why not?
You mentioned that you would not want hospice for yourself. Please get that in writing, signed and notarized, and let your family members know of your wishes.
livinginTX, no hospice does not take you off your BP meds unless you agree to it. My mother was on BP meds for seven months after starting hospice and we only stopped them when it was clear they weren't working any longer.
My dad was given several months to a year, and once he left the room, I asked the doctor how long did he really have. The answer -- "Maybe a month."
Dad died six weeks to the day after his cancer diagnosis.
Doctors can't predict how fast cancer will move, nor do they know how a person's body will shut down with all the other factors involved. Some of them choose to give a time frame in part to give the patient some hope, while others will be forthright. My dad's doctor chose to give my dad some hope, but I made it clear I wanted the truth because I could handle it and was going to be responsible for caring for him. We were both satisfied with our responses from the doctor.
Your aunt is fortunate that the hospice nurse understood the purpose of morphine better than you do. Imagine the pain she'd have been in without it.
some of you report something similar I experienced with my Aunt. She had cancer, not certain what kind, but started having fluid build up. The hospital sent her home and she agreed to palliative care. My sisters rushed in and demanded she go on hospice so medicare would pay for a chair and a hospital bed. Big deal. The doc had given her from 6 mos to a year. She was dead in a week after siblings / hospice charged in. They overdosed her on morphine. took her off her blood pressure meds. She then immediately had a stroke. She was doing OK before hospice, then went straight down when hospice showed up. Bunch of ninnies that had the power of god in their hands and 'knew about death'. It was painful to watch because these people were psycho / flushed with 'power' and you could tell it. She could have gracefully died, but she died a very painful, sad, death that she always said that wasn't the way she wanted to go. I would NEVER use hospice. EVER. Morphine is not always needed nor required for the dying.
To me it's not about thinking my Aunt was going to improve. She wasn't. She was going to die. But she was still 'with it' and enjoyed life. I know she was scared, but wanted to continue living. She was not in any pain except when they drained her tube. She loved to eat and was able to until hospice showed up and cut off the food.
People can die naturally. They don't have to be hastened into it by people who think they are 'suffering'. I'm pretty certain my Aunt suffered more than had she been able to die naturally.
So I'm saying Hospice does in fact kill. I wasn't expecting my Aunt to live, but I wasn't expecting her to be denied the basic things that kept her alive.
In my experiences with Hospice, they do NOT even provide enough meds at one time to kill someone.
WE don't want to accept that our LO's are dying, and when it seems that as soon as they are on Hospice, they pass, we immediately want to place blame.
I personally do not want to outlive my usefulness here on this earth, and I MOST assuredly don't want to 'hang around' b/c my family doesn't want to 'let go of me'. My kids know what I want at my EOL, and it isn't heroic measures to keep my 'going' when I am done with my life here.
I have seen people do things that are seriously just barbaric to keep a LO alive when they are obviously suffering, and dying from cancer or whatever.
I'm truly sorry for your pain, but your LO was in the active stages of dying. You did them a favor by allowing Hospice to do what they do. When you have worked through the 'anger' stage of grief, I hope you can come to a state of peace.
My father was in a coma (at least he was unresponsive) and was actively dying at home. He was NOT having a hard time breathing and I wanted to let him die naturally. But I was pressured from my brother and the hospice nurse who thought it was best to take him off the oxygen and give him morphine. So, in essence they hastened his death and "killed" him. I told my father I loved him and he woke up briefly and tried to say it back, he then died. To this day, I still regret that I allowed my brother and that nurse (who I didn't like) to make this final decision.
People who are in hospice are supposed to die at any time. They are not expected to be discharged in perfect health. They only provide palliative care. If you have evidence that a homicide has been committed, press charges.
toosadtothink: Yes, i too have experienced the "killing" that hospice does . Hospice, along with my sister, intentionally, purposely and legally killed my mother . Oh but all in the name of "comfort" They claim to give morphine for pain . How could they possibly have known if my mother was in pain ..? They had already given her so much morphine that she could no longer speak . Cut off your meds .. cut off your food intake .. cut off your liquid intake .. all the while giving you dose after dose of morphine .. WHATS GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOU? EXACTLY! SO YES, HOSPICE DOES KILL.
I had a wonderful experience with hospice for my dad. I was extremely grateful he did receive everything necessary to make him comfortable, even if that did hasten his death (which I don’t think it did). I knew he wouldn’t improve and my only focus was making him comfortable.
I know many people feel hospice hastened death. I feel it is often driven by grief as I think it is rare for hospice to intentionally kill someone.
I am sorry for the loss of your mother. Having been through 4 hospice events with family and my mother's passing after surgery 2 days later (she stroked out during surgery) the hospice facilities are wonderful. Although it seems as though they are doing what you say they are, in reality making the patient more comfortable. Morphine reduces convulsions, fever, and all the involuntary things that the body does when it is shutting down. I too at the time thought the hospital pushed too much morphine on the last dose as my sibling (nurse) somewhat may have said or not said to the nurse. TBH my mom chose the time to pass after all the family was there even with all the drugs on board. The way they take the utmost care in your loved ones' comfort is with my utmost respect. They do what they have to do to be sure they are treated with dignity. This is my opinion from my own experiences of watching too many family members die. We all go, hospice makes it easier for those when it is difficult. My condolences for your loss.
By the time Hospice was brought in, both my parents were in the dying process. Actually, the Doctor said Dad would not last the weekend, he lasted 5 more weeks. I know its so he could enjoy Thanksgiving. Mom was in a NH. Had already shut her eyes, wouldn't get out of bed, and was having swallowing problems, first sign of the body shutting down. She passed 6 days after Hospice was brought in.
You are grieving and anger comes with that. Really, how involved were you in Moms prognosis? As said stage 4 cancer there is little hope for survival. And the pain! There is no way your Mom didn't feel pain. And who was in charge of Moms care? If she was lucid enough, she was. She determined how much pain meds she needed. Alva, an RN, can confirm this, there comes a time when the body, no matter how much oxygen is given, doesn't absorb it. The cells that are suppose to be carrying it throughout the body just can't do their job anymore. An the antipsychotic drugs, when the brain does not get enough oxygen, it hallucinates and if these hallucinations are causing anxiety, then meds are given.
Hospice has nothing to do with what happens to the body after it dies. What they have is information on the Funeral Home and they call them to pick up the body. Someone in your family had to tell the Funeral Director what they wanted. A regular service or cremation of the body. Hospice nor the AL make burial decisions.
Hospice means comfort care. It means the person wants no extreme measures to save their life. No doctor visits, no hospital visits, no immunology treatments. Just comfort care. And, morphine is given for ease if breathing not just pain. If your Mom was competent then she had to sign off for the care. If not, then her DPOA would have to sign off.
I have a feeling you weren't the one making the decisions for Moms care. I also have a feeling you may not have been told how serious her condition was. Or, you were in denial?
I think your anger is misplaced. Be angry that she died but don't be angry at Hospice because they didn't do what you felt was needed. And don't be angry at the person that had to make the decisions. That person made decisions based on the information they received. Unless Mom was incompetent, she had to make the decision to have Hospice come in and by doing that she new her days were numbered.
My deepest condolences on the loss of your mother. You sound like a person who is in terrible pain. I am so sorry for your suffering. Your mother must have been a great person to be so sorely grieved and missed. You say in your profile that she had Stage 4 lung cancer and that disease can be unpredictable. Right in my own family I've seen just how unpredictable. A good day can go fast into a very bad night and then dead. It was her time. No one can live forever and we are all bound for eternity. Hospice was not responsible for cremating her. Someone filled out paperwork with the arrangements for what would be done with your mother's body. I'm not a person who will much sing the praises of hospice care especially when done in the home, but they did not murder your mother. How much more life do you think she could have had? She couldn't recover from Stage 4 lung cancer. Maybe she could have suffered a few more days or weeks in pain and fear without all the medication. She is beyond all pain and suffering now and has gone to God's peace and mercy. I hope you can find some peace and comfort for yourself. Maybe a bereavement group for people who have lost loved ones to cancer would be a help to you. God bless you.
My girlfriend told me about hospice experience for her Mom. The most helpful, compassionate care. Her Mom, 88, cancer spread and noting but excruciating pain started about a month ago. Even though hospice was doing everything possible, as they could not get pain under control they transferred her to hospital. Morphine and other meds did almost nothing at the end, her Mom chose herself to be euthanized, her Mom died peacefully about 3 weeks ago. Point is, good thing she could choose herself.
Wondering what medical school you attended to know all this information. I can't think of any doctors who'd violate their oath to do no harm and let a lung cancer patient suffocate and feel every horrific thing that goes with that.
Sorry for your loss, but your rage is completely misplaced and in reality is grief. Please get grief counseling.
I must say, my mom was in major pain yesterday, hard to watch… hospice was finally able to get it under control.. my mom passed away tonight… not from overdose of morphine, but from old age, her body was tired, my mom had a pain free death..
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It took me years and years to finally learn about my sig-other's relatives' life, who had passed on decades ago. All anyone would talk about was the funeral. For years, all I heard was the funeral, who went, who didn't go, what food was served afterwards, the burial site, the funeral home, etc. Yes, death is a milestone, but there were many more wonderful milestone that some how got erased in so many minds.
Hospice is wonderful.
First I am nurse, second I had Melanoma 23 yrs ago. Very familiar with it. He was not taking chemo it does not work for Melanoma. They use immune therapy and radiation. My mom is a nurse and was present through most of the year with him. He was having progress and we both spoke with neurologist and saw the last MRI. He became more disabled from the radiation and his wife did not want him like that. As she said to my face, also Melanoma treatment has come a long way and not a death sentence anymore when it spreads. He had more time and it was not his wish to die without food or water. He wanted to be home with his son. I understand when someone is on their deathbed, he was not.
I don't see this as the fault of Hospice. Maybe by the time they got him he was transitioning. Morphine and other drugs are given for comfort. Water and food is stopped because the body is shutting down. If the family felt there was foal play they should have paid for an autopsy. Melanoma kills. Very few survive it especially when it hits the brain. All chemo was doing was extending his life. Unless u were there 24/7 and were able to talk to the doctors you really have no idea what was going on. Maybe your brother wanted to fight, but chemo no longer was working.
.
*I* was the one who gave mom the morphine, the Haldol and the Ativan. Hospice only made those drugs available to me for use to give my mother COMFORT at the end.
On the first day I started mom on the EOL comfort meds, I had left her alone for 1/2 an hour to go and take a shower. I asked her before I went "How're you doing mom? You OK if I go to take a shower?" She answered me "Yup, I'm fine. Go take your shower, I won't go anywhere" (she said that last with a smile at me).
In that mere 1/2 an hour time, by the time I got back to her, she had a look of ABJECT TERROR on her face... I asked her "Mom, what's wrong?" She said to me "Something is wrong, I don't feel so good..." She was gasping for breath. I could see her heart pounding against her chest. She was going through oxygen starvation. She was beginning her "transition".
Thank God I had the meds from hospice on hand! I just said to her "Don't worry, mom, hospice gave me the medicine for you for this" and started her on the combination of drugs to calm her and ease her breathing. It only took about 20 minutes for her breathing to calm, and she put her feet up and went to sleep. It was 4 days until she actually passed, but it was peaceful. She never had that horrible look on her face again. Ever.
If you don't want to engage hospice for yourself or your LO, that's fine, but please. Stop spewing this nonsense about "hospice kills". I get when people are in deep grief, they are looking for someone to blame, but enough is enough with this.
I myself would feel far guiltier if I had allowed my mother to suffer needlessly, rather than take the extremely low chance that hospice care - EOL comfort care - might - MIGHT - slightly lessen my mother's life. If I had had to see that look on my mother's face for the duration of those last 96 hours of her life, I would never be able to get it out of my head.
@LivinginTX: Like someone else mentioned, hospice means no more doctors, just comfort. I don't think they should have "stopped" her food if she was fine eating. That part I don't agree with. Also sometimes doctors give a broader time span, they told my father 6 months...it was 6 weeks!! The day we received the news from the oncologist about how bad it was, they told me we should look into hospice. I was like, "he's not ready for that." That was on a Thursday. The following Monday, I had called hospice. It can change at any moment. He had esophageal cancer. It's just a guess. Everyone is different and depending on the type of cancer and the aggressiveness of it. Sounds like she might have had lung cancer mentioning the fluid build up. What I am learning from that is that they give you morphine to help with the cough as well as pain and let nature take its course. Your Aunt I assume is elderly? Age makes a difference too. My mother being 88 yrs old, there was no other option, too old to try anything else. Now with my mother, I am well versed on how it works and take it one day at a time. Tomorrow is never promised.
If you still feel your Aunt was "killed" by hospice, did you call the police? If not, why not?
You mentioned that you would not want hospice for yourself. Please get that in writing, signed and notarized, and let your family members know of your wishes.
My dad was given several months to a year, and once he left the room, I asked the doctor how long did he really have. The answer -- "Maybe a month."
Dad died six weeks to the day after his cancer diagnosis.
Doctors can't predict how fast cancer will move, nor do they know how a person's body will shut down with all the other factors involved. Some of them choose to give a time frame in part to give the patient some hope, while others will be forthright. My dad's doctor chose to give my dad some hope, but I made it clear I wanted the truth because I could handle it and was going to be responsible for caring for him. We were both satisfied with our responses from the doctor.
Your aunt is fortunate that the hospice nurse understood the purpose of morphine better than you do. Imagine the pain she'd have been in without it.
To me it's not about thinking my Aunt was going to improve. She wasn't. She was going to die. But she was still 'with it' and enjoyed life. I know she was scared, but wanted to continue living. She was not in any pain except when they drained her tube. She loved to eat and was able to until hospice showed up and cut off the food.
People can die naturally. They don't have to be hastened into it by people who think they are 'suffering'. I'm pretty certain my Aunt suffered more than had she been able to die naturally.
So I'm saying Hospice does in fact kill. I wasn't expecting my Aunt to live, but I wasn't expecting her to be denied the basic things that kept her alive.
WE don't want to accept that our LO's are dying, and when it seems that as soon as they are on Hospice, they pass, we immediately want to place blame.
I personally do not want to outlive my usefulness here on this earth, and I MOST assuredly don't want to 'hang around' b/c my family doesn't want to 'let go of me'. My kids know what I want at my EOL, and it isn't heroic measures to keep my 'going' when I am done with my life here.
I have seen people do things that are seriously just barbaric to keep a LO alive when they are obviously suffering, and dying from cancer or whatever.
I'm truly sorry for your pain, but your LO was in the active stages of dying. You did them a favor by allowing Hospice to do what they do. When you have worked through the 'anger' stage of grief, I hope you can come to a state of peace.
I know many people feel hospice hastened death. I feel it is often driven by grief as I think it is rare for hospice to intentionally kill someone.
You are grieving and anger comes with that. Really, how involved were you in Moms prognosis? As said stage 4 cancer there is little hope for survival. And the pain! There is no way your Mom didn't feel pain. And who was in charge of Moms care? If she was lucid enough, she was. She determined how much pain meds she needed. Alva, an RN, can confirm this, there comes a time when the body, no matter how much oxygen is given, doesn't absorb it. The cells that are suppose to be carrying it throughout the body just can't do their job anymore. An the antipsychotic drugs, when the brain does not get enough oxygen, it hallucinates and if these hallucinations are causing anxiety, then meds are given.
Hospice has nothing to do with what happens to the body after it dies. What they have is information on the Funeral Home and they call them to pick up the body. Someone in your family had to tell the Funeral Director what they wanted. A regular service or cremation of the body. Hospice nor the AL make burial decisions.
Hospice means comfort care. It means the person wants no extreme measures to save their life. No doctor visits, no hospital visits, no immunology treatments. Just comfort care. And, morphine is given for ease if breathing not just pain. If your Mom was competent then she had to sign off for the care. If not, then her DPOA would have to sign off.
I have a feeling you weren't the one making the decisions for Moms care. I also have a feeling you may not have been told how serious her condition was. Or, you were in denial?
I think your anger is misplaced. Be angry that she died but don't be angry at Hospice because they didn't do what you felt was needed. And don't be angry at the person that had to make the decisions. That person made decisions based on the information they received. Unless Mom was incompetent, she had to make the decision to have Hospice come in and by doing that she new her days were numbered.
My deepest condolences on the loss of your mother. You sound like a person who is in terrible pain. I am so sorry for your suffering.
Your mother must have been a great person to be so sorely grieved and missed.
You say in your profile that she had Stage 4 lung cancer and that disease can be unpredictable. Right in my own family I've seen just how unpredictable. A good day can go fast into a very bad night and then dead. It was her time. No one can live forever and we are all bound for eternity. Hospice was not responsible for cremating her. Someone filled out paperwork with the arrangements for what would be done with your mother's body.
I'm not a person who will much sing the praises of hospice care especially when done in the home, but they did not murder your mother. How much more life do you think she could have had? She couldn't recover from Stage 4 lung cancer. Maybe she could have suffered a few more days or weeks in pain and fear without all the medication. She is beyond all pain and suffering now and has gone to God's peace and mercy.
I hope you can find some peace and comfort for yourself. Maybe a bereavement group for people who have lost loved ones to cancer would be a help to you. God bless you.
The most helpful, compassionate care.
Her Mom, 88, cancer spread and noting but excruciating pain started about a month ago.
Even though hospice was doing everything possible, as they could not get pain under control they transferred her to hospital.
Morphine and other meds did almost nothing at the end, her Mom chose herself to be euthanized, her Mom died peacefully about 3 weeks ago. Point is, good thing she could choose herself.
Sorry for your loss, but your rage is completely misplaced and in reality is grief. Please get grief counseling.