Can he make me move out?

Ccoast - you have been given great advice and experience.

I would like to add to the wise words of CountryMouse, JessieBelle & Babalou this:
- start salting away a few extra dollars each week. If dad inspects the bills, you will have to go creative on this….like buy a few extra things and return them and you keep the cash. A friend of mine had to do this to cover the cost of gas as her dad insisted that she was "gallivanting all around town on his dime" and that was why she spend so much on gas. Dad flat could not process that gas could cost close to $ 4.00 so therefore she was a lying gad-about thief as he cannot be wrong.
- you need to start a binder on dad's financials. Now is the perfect time of the year to get started on this & fresh for 2015. All of dad's financials will be coming in - from 1099's on interest paid, property tax bills, etc. You really need to have detailed documentation on just what dad owns & owes. You may find that things may not be as rosy as thought. Dad may be underinsured; may not be paying his taxes; may not have filed whatever in a timely manner. With dementia they will often in a fit of pique cancel something or refuse to pay something, and this snowballs to having a policy cancelled. Like they get pissed off that their life insurance company isn't sending them a prepaid envelope anymore, so they refuse to send in the required payment & the policy which they paid on for 20 years is cancelled. Totally loco but that is how dementia can be. If in the near future, you need to hire home health to augment what you do, you need to know and fast what funds are out there or what could be liquidated to do this.

Also realize that Dad probably has too much assets to qualify for governmental assistance (like Medicaid). If he was a veteran, he can get that though. It is my firm belief that IF they live long enough, they will eventually run out of money and the caregiver will run out of steam. You need to plan for that eventuality both in having a bead on what dad can afford and to plan for your own future.

It's telling that Dad is paying you an amount that is what you made when you were back in your high school days and still a minor under his authority. He does not understand what the economy is now and he finds what you do to be of no skilled value. That isn't going to change so you need to do whatever to plan for your future around all this. The personal services contract is a good place to start & you get 2 or 3 home health agencies to come in and give an estimate of what they would change your dad. Then either he pays you via the contract for what home health would charge or you hire home health and he pays for it which you can do as you have DPOA. You cannot continue with the Mr Nice Sonny Boy anymore & you can do this. If not, something is going to happen to you that leaves you incapacitated and the court do an emergency guardianship / ward of the state action on dad. You really don't want to have this happen & you can do what is needed to have dad cared for and have yourself properly compensated. You both are fortunate that dad has the funds to make this happen. Good luck.

Backing up, your dad has financial resources. Investments that produce invome, a paid off house. Does he have a will? Who are these assets left to?

I'm curious, because your dad seems to be saving for a rainy day and it's pouring outside. As POA, it seems to me that you have an obligation, not simply a right, to spend money on his care.

If he's gotten to the point where he's a using you of what amounts to abuse, for self protection, I would move him to AL or Memory care .

If your father is extremely resistant, you may want to file for conservatorship or guardianship. I believe this is usually handled through the probate court. There will be a good bit of paperwork to fill out to show that your father is not competent. I believe that the final court costs can be taken from your father's accounts. You may want to check on this. Since you are POA, you may be selected as conservator. However, the court can also choose someone outside the family if there is conflict or other reason not to award conservatorship to a family member. This may be the way you want to go if your father is incompetent and cannot be reasoned with.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could live peacefully with our elders? Dementia certainly throws a monkey wrench in things.

I meant to add: you are doing the right things for him. The fact that he complains or is unreasonably dissatisfied is not evidence that you are doing a bad job. Be comforted. He is incredibly lucky to have someone who cares what he wants as his POA.

Well. Move ahead… by that I mean, approach as a project the question of how your father is to be cared for from now on, in what setting, by whom, using what resources, etc etc etc.; and then the hard bit: go ahead and do it.

So, example one: it has become impossible/intolerable for you to remain living with him in his home. You might then decide that in that case he will need to move to an ALF (or higher level of support, even), his house is to be sold, and the whole funding process begun. You have the authority to do that.

Or, you might decide that he can live in his home but since he can't do it safely without live-in care you will try to find a paid, qualified, reputable companion who is able to undertake this role (I'm not recommending this, btw); and you will meanwhile make plans for your own future, relieved of day to day responsibilities but supervising from a distance while you get on with your own life.

That kind of thing. So I suppose the lynchpin is that what you can't do - or you can, but I think you'd be sorry - is sit back and wait for it to get worse. The answer to your original question of can he make you move out, assuming that he is truly and actually declared legally incompetent, is no, he can't. He now cannot make any such substantial decisions for himself, enter into contracts or enforce them. You have to do all of it for him, acting as far as you can as you know he would have preferred.

Since he is already pretty combative about this, I would say that the sooner you call in reinforcements or find alternative provision, the better. Meanwhile you are doing all you can to calm and reassure him; but if he isn't already he soon will be someone who cannot reason. Are there any support groups in your local area? A friend in need...

seacoast, I read where you said the neurologist wrote he could not live alone. Is this the same thing as mental incompetence, where he can't make his own decisions? I don't know how that works.

Countrymouse, what do you mean move ahead with POA and assessment ? I have DPOA and as I said he has been tested for competence, I have all the documentation. Tell me what you mean with move ahead ?

draw up a caregivers agreement so you are getting paid for everything you are doing if that is possible to change if he is paying you so little. if you are keeping him from nursing home admittance then you are earning the house regardless in some states but you will need an elderlaw lawyer consult

Seacoast, if you have POA and your father has been deemed incompetent, then your problem isn't that your father doesn't agree. Of course he doesn't agree! - that's kind of the point. The problem is that you now have not only the right but the duty to make decisions on his behalf whether he likes them or not. The scene has changed. Serving his best interests now takes precedence over respecting his wishes, rather than vice versa. Given your sincere and profound respect for his autonomy this is going to be no less distasteful to you than it is to him, but the time has come for you to plan his future care and go full steam ahead with it. What are the options?

Don't get me wrong, I don't tell him he is incompetent, but I question him on how he will do things with out me ? I watch the bills, I see the mistakes and let them happen only to correct them later when they come back. He think they are petty mistakes and they should have sent them back. LOL

JesseBelle, my dads PC doctor already sent him for a neuropsychological evaluation and that doctor deemed him incompetent a year ago. My dad doesn't believe the doctors diagnosis and thinks the man is a quack and that was all a rip-off. Everyone is out to rip you off in his mind. The hard part is getting my dad to understand that me or someone else is his choice for a caregiver, I always thought that me being the bargain would influence him to allow me to stay and care for him. He doesn't believe me that the the state can take over, in his words " Nobody can make me go in a home." He thinks he can care for himself, but honestly I know he can't. I really don't want to give up on him, it has gone well up until now and I think I can get past it. But I'll admit I really have been thinking of getting out for my own well being. I stess over things I don't feel I have control over mostly bills getting paid correctly or how my dad will react when I tell him something like the state will take over if I'm not here, or your unable to care for yourself. I understand nobody likes to hear they are incompetent & nobody prepares for this kind of disease. I think deep inside he knows he needs me but his stubborn side won't admit it.

Seacoast, I am just reading through this and imagining what I would do in your situation. Your father and my mother are similar in what they can and can't do. She has told me a couple of times that she wants me out of the house tomorrow and that she would have the police remove me. I knew, though, that she couldn't make it without help, so I couldn't just leave. Fortunately, the trouble blew over in my case.

POA does give you the authority to act on someone's behalf, but it is not imprisonment. You don't have to be living with someone to be meeting the obligations of the POA. A major problem that I see is that you don't have your own resources, so can't move into a nearby place. Also, I know that you worry about what would happen with your father if you weren't with him. Both you and he are in very vulnerable positions.

In this instance I would have a talk with my father that I will leave as he wants, but that the doctor says he is not able to live alone. He will either need to go into a facility or get a caregiver come in to take your place. You can also talk to his doctor about competence -- I can't predict how that will go, since doctors are often reluctant to officially state someone is incompetent. If your father is not legally incompetent, you will need to follow his wishes. If needed, you can resign the POAs. It still leaves the primary problems, but what can we do in situations like this?

My advice would be to spend the next two weeks securing your own future. Being financially dependent on an unstable man is not a good situation. I would also try to mend the relationship with Dad. Staying with him does seem the best thing at this time.

I think people on the group are probably like me in trying to figure out how to get out of the corner you're painted into. I see the biggest problem is that he wants you out and you have no money. You can always arrange for his care in some way. The trick will be finding a way to care for yourself. I really hope that you and your father can mend things and give you a chance to find your feet. Many caregivers find themselves in this situation and it is a difficult one to work through.

There certainly are plenty of people living with their parent(s) and not necessarily feeling all that welcome, shall we say… Try popping a few questions around that into the search box, top right?

Did you have any luck moving ahead with the POA and assessment for incompetence aspects? Until you have taken over legally, social workers will be a little bit up a gum tree because your father will be their "boss", so to speak. They still have to protect his best interests, but they won't be able to do a thing without his consent to it.

I guess I just don't feel like I'm getting the support I m looking for, maybe I need to be more assertive. Also thought I would would hear from some people having similar experience and get some stories I can relate too.

What's gone on, Seacoast? Different system, but I've always found social workers very supportive of elders staying in their own home, and with your POA (not to mention your exemplary attitude) you're the perfect candidate for them to choose to facilitate that. So I would have expected them, all things being equal, to be supportive of your having him assessed as incompetent and enabling your POA. Has there been a problem?

Have you talked to your local area agency on aging and or APS and or his doc about his condition and abilities this week?

Can I ask you all, if he can't cook, pay his bills, write a check correctly, get out to shop for food. How can I be forced out and leave him to fall apart again and end up dead or in a hospital ? It's like the state want you to bail so they can take over and do exactly what he doesn't want. I find this very upsetting.

Seacoast, none of us here knew that we could do that until we started reading stuff on this site! I can remember two years ago, the hospital told me mom was "all set to go". She had been in and out 4 times in as many months. I said, I'm not taking her home until you figure out what's going on with her bp. My mother was SOoooo made at me! But we finally started to get some results!

Babalou, I certainly will, should have the first time I got him out of the hospital.

By the time the end of the year gets here, your Dad may not even remember the conversation. Just wait until he brings it up again. Talk to the lawyer and get all your ducks in a row. Be prepared for anything. Best of luck!

Seacoast , this is so sad, both for you and dad. Has he ever been seen by a geriatric psychiatrist?

Sadly, he may end up falling, as you say. Please remember that if he ends up admitted to the hospital you insist upon rehab afterwards. You are also within your rights to say that you can no longer safely care for him.

My dad is still able to dress himself and carefully walk around from his room, kitchen and bathroom, also still showers himself. I've even found him to wonder upstairs when I'm not around, which scares the hell out of me, stairs, yikes. He appears very frail and his walk is very unstable. Scary to say the least, but he refuses walkers or wheelchair, he is proud and vain at the same time. Needs hearing aids, glasses but refuses to purchase hearing adds, got him glasses but he will not wear them. He wears his old ones, which I've tried to take away and he got angry, "I do t need to see that good." When I asked why. If you ask me "Is he a fall risk ?" I would say yes and I'm on my toes to catch him when he moves but I'm not there everytime.

Oh, he does have a substantial savings/investment, along with his large house on Cape Cod.

Thank you for all the responses, maybe I need to add a few thing in.

My dad's PC doctor (who I set him up with after his old one retired and he had none) sent him to a phsychologist who evaluated him and did a neuropsychological evaluation. In Dr. Mueller's words he said my dad has a "wide ranging cognitive deficits including the area of attention and concentration, memory impairment, language functioning, difficulty in learning and retrieving new information, visual spatial/constructional impairment and difficulty initiating activities, shifting sets and planning towards goals. Loss of abstract thinking ability and very slow in mental processing. Testing showed he was often preoccupied and un engaged." He ends the paragraph with "Clearly that patient could not live independently given his present cognitive and emotional state."

So that all being said, I think I have a lot prepared for him and I already. Really need to sit with the lawyer. But I thought that might have some of you understanding at what level he and I are at. I do not have the fund for guardianship. He pays me a very little weekly salary, about what I made out of highschool and I have used most of my retirement and savings to have something of a life for myself.

Pam, I really don't believe with all that I have just written out about his diagnosis he can make me leave. I'm hoping either ES or the lawyer can help him understand his current position and options. He is very tight about money and refuses to pay anyone for assistance. Everyone is trying to rip him off, and apparently after the argument he has accused me in his words "Jewing me little by little everyday." Yes it does hurt when your dad accuses you of being a thief and would rather die alone then with his caring son. Another quote.

You talk to the lawyer about Guardianship, and it can be pricey, $3-5K or more if it is contested by anyone.
Can he make you leave? yes he can, but you cover your axx by alerting the Elder Services to his risk, you inform them in writing if you retain an attorney and seek Guardianship.
If Elder Services documents him as confused, and his MD documents his losses as well, the Court Evaluator will award Guardianship to you, but only after a complete background check, including credit records and work history.

I'm so sorry, what a terribly uncomfortable position for you to be in.

Normally, of course, you'd say it's his house, he says who lives in it. But this situation is not that simple. For one thing, he cannot stay safely on his own at home - he would be at risk of injury or worse. For another, from your description it sounds as if he has lost the ability to make reasoned decisions; and that means that you, as his POA, are now responsible for his welfare. Bummer!

As he doesn't agree that he needs somebody with him all the time, you can't even nominate a proxy and get either an HCA or another family member to come and stay. He wants to be left in peace, on his own, but for the sake of his own safety you cannot comply with his wishes even though you would like to.

Short term, keep out of his way as much as you can but keep your ears open for trouble. If he confronts you about leaving, tell him (calmly, not arguing) that you will make arrangements for that as soon as you can, but you have to do it in a practical way. On Monday morning call your attorney and ask about having him declared incompetent. Obviously that isn't something anybody wants to do, but the time has come for you to take charge and to do that you need to have the relevant legal authority.

Once your POA is in force, your father will no longer have the legal right to act for himself. I know how Draconian that sounds, but the good news is that your father, unlike too many people, has had the good fortune to give this exceptionally important legal power to you, a son who genuinely has his best interests and welfare at heart. From everything you have said, I feel confident that you will then look carefully at all the options that are available to him and choose the one that is the best match possible for what he wants. That doesn't mean he'll be happy, necessarily, but it does mean that your conscience can be clear. What he'd like is to be living independently and of sound mind - it's not your fault that he has lost those things and is grieving for them.

I applaud your attitude. You are getting this all right. Best of luck, please update.

First of all let me commend you for taking on the welfare of your dad. All that you describe is pretty typical of dementia. Hopefully he will forget that he has asked you to move out. I guess you can stay and see what happens. Has he been evaluated for dementia? If you can get a statement from his doctor? If not, it would be good to document what you have written here and present it to his doctor. Was he somewhat like this before the dementia or has he changed with the onset of dementia? Teepa Snow has some great videos about dealing with Alz/dementia patients and they may be helpful to you. It sounds like you and your dad are in a power struggle and that never turns out well. Read all you can about dealing with dementia. It is no use explaining and explaining things as he cannot get it. Not "will" not but "can" not. His brain is diseased and that will only get worse.

It may be helpful to you to contact the local Adult Protective Services (APS) to see if they can help you. It is common for dementia patients not to recognise that they need help and want to stay in their homes alone.

You have been and are making a huge sacrifice. I am glad your girlfriend is able to visit quite often. You need to think ahead about you willingness/ability to continue with caregiving. Perhaps your dad would accept hired help if he can afford it. It is better to approach such things from the point of view that you would be uncomfortable with him on his own, as opposed to insisting that he needs the help. Many resist this. He probably senses that he is losing control and is fighting it.

I think you are wise to consult an elder law lawyer. In some cases people have had to let the senior be alone until something happened to prove to them that they had to have help eg a fall, or meds mix up that took them to ER, however according to ES that leaves you vulnerable.

This time of transition is very difficult for many. Babalou's suggestion about visiting facilities is a good one. Keep in touch and let us know how it goes.

You should talk with the lawyer first and foremost about what your responsibilities as DPOA are. If you were his guardian, yes, then you could be charged with abandoning hin. But the rules on dpoa vary from state to state.

If your dad has dementia (my mom also has vascular dementia) there is really no reasoning with the demented brain. It is possible that the lawyer will be able to get through to him, but you need to have plan B in place.

Those places? Is he still able to handle his own personal care, walking to a dining room snd the like? You might want to take him on some assisted living facility tours. He might be surprised.