Follow
Share
Read More
This question has been closed for answers. Ask a New Question.
Find Care & Housing
Deb - for CodyBaby the property is in a Life Estate, so family doesn’t really own it completely till after the elder dies. LEs have ownership shared between the life tenant and the remainder men. Just what the % & amount depends on tenant age and property value and then what type of LE was done. It’s not simple to begin with and if Medicaid is applied for the remainder men part can be viewed as gifting with transfer penalty placed depending on what type of LE and how long ago it was done.

Your family is having an issue that happens often..... the elder refuses to or cannot pay property costs. If it’s that the elder can’t afford property costs, then family needs to pay the whatever’s.
But if it’s that the elders viewpoint is “you all are going to inherit, so you all need to pay now”; that they have the $$$$ but won’t pay, that’s a very VERY different problem. Elder is holding you all hostage. If you call their bluff and refuse to pay taxes, insurance etc, just what will they do??? For property taxes, most places have 3 consecutive years before a tax lien redemption can happen, if you like risk....you could push not paying taxes to 2yrs 11 mos to see if they crater. Interest is significant on delinquent property taxes, so keep that in mind.
Helpful Answer (1)
Report

First, igloo, I believe codybaby's family, as I said, has probably passed the lookback period, like we have as well, so don't think the remainder is the issue as much as the actual LE value is; in our case, true, mil no longer has the actual money fil left her to take care of such things, but he set up his pension in such a way that she would get it, which would well take care of the property taxes, even if she has remarried, which, one, not sure he expected - but then not sure he didn't either; either way he provided for her - but even if, not sure if he knew the rules had been changed and she would continue to get his pension anyway, which didn't used to be the case; not sure how he'd feel about it, but anyway....but as for the other, either nobody's willing to call her bluff or doesn't think she should have to pay or don't think she's the one actually responsible; everybody pretty much thinks they actually own the property, just have to let her live there if she were to choose to do so; the issue is more if she were to have to go to a nursing home, which begs the question in the scenario you presented; how was son able to sell mom's house in the first place? but the question here is not so much if Medicaid would be applied for, which keep forgetting probably would since seems they don't consider her value of the property, but they would, wouldn't they, but the question is would they then expect nursing home to be paid upfront or would/could they just put a lien on the property until her death, although, either way, if the only money to pay would have to come from the sale of the property, ostensibly; I've heard about that MERP exemption but don't remember exactly what it is - do you mind explaining, though I'll try to look it up - thanks
Helpful Answer (0)
Report

duh, right here - Medicaid Estate Recovery Program, right? but in Codybaby's case don't believe anybody was living with mom, not sure what will end up happening with mil, actually talked to new hub over the weekend, had gotten the impression he didn't think anything was wrong, but didn't get that idea then, not sure what he's thinking; he wasn't with her, not sure what that means
Helpful Answer (0)
Report

oh, regarding the other, almost had that situation, not with my family, but with some friends of one of my children - with some of their/our help - not mine - they got his father down here out of the facility he was in, apparently he had no guardian, etc. and could make that decision, even though he was there because of a tbi - go figure - anyway, affected his colon, so because of the 45 day waiting/transfer between states period you can just guess, leave that to you, but emergency surgery, then attempt at rehab but you can imagine how that went; they weren't told about his tbi when placed, so definitely were ready for him to go when time came but "they"/son and just gf hadn't realized what they'd bitten off so they didn't want him back and even left town the week he was to be discharged to them; well, leave it to me, I suppose but I didn't think fair to them? him? but also he had family, still had parents himself who'd been watching out for him - again, not sure of legalities, but knew they wouldn't want to happen to him what happened with situation you described so called and told them what was going on; wasn't entirely sure what you described would actually happen but guess it does, at least eventually, and they certainly were saying it would but they left anyway and refused to come back, except, and, yes, this is exactly what they planned to; they'd had his check transferred, since not lt yet, wasn't going to nh yet, they planned to come get it but not him, but finally, I suppose, either enough pressure or they finally got convinced of what would actually happen; think they thought would go the other way that if they didn't come get him he would just get to stay where he was and they could either come see him or at least they'd know where he was, think only when realized he really might be moved and they wouldn't know and might even be held responsible that somebody, not even sure it ended up being them, finally did come get him, take him back to at least the area he was, though don't think was allowed to go back to where he was, which probably wasn't a bad idea; had little too much freedom there, which is part of what allowed that whole situation, and got him placed in a somewhat more secure facility, though it was a hard adjustment on him; I normally am more a believer in letting even those type people have as much liberty as possible but guess have to say in this situation his really did need to be more curtailed; he just didn't have the judgement
Helpful Answer (0)
Report

Deb - since each state runs its Medicaid program uniquely, everybody’s answer is right and everybody’s is wrong depending on what state your in and what the latest changes the legislature does.....

On LE my understanding is most have LE if it was irrevocable done over 5 yrs ago is beyond MERP. But LE irrevocable under 5 yrs has transfer penalty. And states consider any LE if revocable to involve gifting & transfer penalty and the amt based on the % tenant owner age & property value with % shared by all remainder men. Revocable can be switched back. It’s not simple; really LE needs sharp elder law atty to shepherd the application imo.

LE breakout usually done by a taxation pro. Although irs has tables. If it were me, I’d get a property inspection then solid appraisal done & perhaps residential engineering report done before even turning it over to taxation atty (LL.M) to run %.

About the son who sold his moms house at my moms 1st NH, I imagine he had dpoa that allowed for all finances, sold her home, put the $ in her account and then paid himself. TX MLS allow dpoa to sign off the paper work at the act of sale, so his mom not needed to be there. TX has annual recertification, so I’d bet property sale showed up as all real property data is easily cross referenced btw county assessors & state database and the property was already in her file from the initial application. Just a few keystrokes for Medicaid to find sale to surface and to the penny. But whatever the path was, he didn’t report it to Medicaid, he ignored all correspondence and NH had enough and got APS involved which snowballed to his mom being made Ward of the state and moved to another NH by the new guardian. Major drama and totally avoidable.

I hope your families LE is irrevocable and beyond any MERP should they ever need Medicaid as it sounds so very very convoluted. Good luck.
Helpful Answer (0)
Report

If you want to see how the home was sold and money misused, there is a headline for Ryan Todd Powers, just convicted in Florida of elder abuse.
"Son steals parents' money, leaves dad at funeral home"
he left mother in medicaid nursing home, stole both parents pensions without paying nursing homes after he put parents in different ones, and he left his father in funeral home without paying for services so taxpayers would pay final expenses. A real charmer.
Helpful Answer (2)
Report

GuestShoppe - Ryan Todd...beyond a charmer. His Mom “he was coddled too much”, now that’s an understatement...... bet she goes to visit him in prison as it really wasn’t his fault. Ryan Todd was led astray by bad convienience store clerks and unscrupulous pawn shop owners. I bet if you added up the check cashing fees, they made a hefty sum out of his fraud.  My goodness his folks were living at what look like from the photo a modest trailer park; “Ryan Todd” poster boy for POS. 

 Love, love, love the part where “Ryan Todd” asked the NH for a refund of the $ paid for his dads last month NH stay as dad died before the end of month cause there should be a refund paid. Cojones! 
GuestShoppe, honey, you gotta link good old boy “Ryan Todd” on a regular basis to posts on AC!
Helpful Answer (1)
Report

igloo, life estate doesn't say whether revocable or ir, but nothing ever said about taxes, how would that work? all deeds have been recorded; are they checked? they definitely weren't done by elder law attorney and actually attorney who did the most of them said only did because fil had had done on the one deed he made sure was done before he passed because he wanted to make sure it was turned over to them; the rest weren't actually done until after he passed by mil and gc she made poa and they didn't care; actually mil didn't even really want but didn't tell lawyer, actually not even sure - well, know she didn't know anything about them, because upset at "finding" out, otherwise, why looking for that one, then upset at not being able to find out; lawyer, of course, only knew it was done, not what fil had done with it
I learned about the percentages from the IRS tax tables; nobody thinks any of the property, even the house, is worth very much anyway, so they don't really think be issue with Medicaid re nh, but any property has some value but would Medicaid have appraisal done themselves to determine how much lien or at least how much value toward the lien?

re other situation, maybe it's a state thing, too, but in state of my dad, courthouse told me even dpoa wouldn't cover real estate unless specifically stated to so couldn't sell dad's house, at least not legally, but if I had would have been to have allowed him to go into assisted living, probably not nursing home, at that point, anyway, but something ran into after he passed away, with them only having recertification every 4 years is his house was not worth what they assessing it at, so trying to get comps by house sales in his neighborhood, only one close at time, but was foreclosure, so didn't count, but burned - strange, huh - shortly after, so then bought from insurance company? since when were houses totaled out and turned over to insurance companies? what about the property house was on? have you ever heard of anything like that? bought by somebody who owned another house in neighborhood with mortgage but none on this one, bought by mortgaging yet another house owned that he lived in so no real record of final price paid, then another house finally went on market, with same situation, elderly male widow owner passed away and even though assessment situation might have been different, still didn't sell in its condition, not until same type repairs made, all this determined to be defined by insurance companies who won't insure, not necessarily because of condition, just age, and basically had to be done by family, otherwise getting underwater for sure, still had to lower price even after for to finally sell, but at least had family willing to do, something don't seem to have
in current situation, not sure why issue brought up about uncle laying outside for an hour before being missed
Helpful Answer (0)
Report

The house was put into our names 10 years ago, with her having a life estate giving her the right to live in it until she dies. Her name is not on the title, and it was done 10 years ago so look back period is not an issue. The deed is in mine and my brothers name, then there is a letter stapled to the deed giving her the life estate. Had she not done the life estate at all, and just put our names on it (without the life estate letter attached) then we could just sell it now. Someone said all 3 of us could sell it. Legally yes, but then it would no longer be protected and it would start the look back period all over again. The nursing home would want the money from the sale. What if we rent it out? Does the nursing home get the rent money, even though her name isn't on the title, and is way past the look back period?? Could some of the rent go towards maintaining the house?  Also, I am her power of attorney.  Both financial and medical.
Helpful Answer (0)
Report

Cody - it can be rented.
But before you pop open that bottle of bubbly........ needs to be rented at fair market value. & rent is income to each “owner”. Income is reportable and taxable. Someone will need to deal with property management and also make sure the % of rent due to mom is included in required by Medicaid copay to the NH. This could pose eligibility issue if fmv rent added to moms existing monthly income (like SS, other retirement) could take her over the Medicaid limit for income set by your state.

It flat won’t be simple.

Really gather up all property legal, all of moms old dpoa and schedule a appt with an elder law atty. If this were me personally I’d get NAELA level atty.
Please realize it is NOT that the NH that wants the $ from the house sale. NH needs to be paid for their stay...... whether it’s paid from $ from moms savings; from the sale of a home ; or if eligible from Medicaid’s daily paid R&B $ to the NH; or or that someone in the family private pays for her stay.

Based on what you’ve posted, it reads there is no way around Moms having her LE on the property without it having a value which is an asset. Have NAELA atty work with mom & you all to look at what options exist and what the costs would be.
Helpful Answer (1)
Report

An elder law attorney just recently informed me that putting the Life Estate up for sale will enable the applicant to qualify for Medicaid. This does not change the ownership of the real estate. In reality, a Life Estate is only worth the rental value for the rest of holder's life. What will anyone pay for that? Effectively, there is no market for a LE; but as long as it is up for sale, Medicaid requirement is satisfied.
Helpful Answer (1)
Report

Check what that look back period in your state is. I think in most places it is only 5 years so you might not have to deal with that. Maybe you could ask Gray Law attorney or legal adviser at a senior center in your community what your best plan of action is.
Helpful Answer (0)
Report

When, the original poster said the CDs were cashed and given 3.5 years ago, well within 5 year lookback. And parent needs nursing home now, so they do need to worry and find out legal options before filing for Medicaid.
Helpful Answer (4)
Report

This question has been closed for answers. Ask a New Question.
Ask a Question
Subscribe to
Our Newsletter