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Life is short. Appreciate your mom while she’s here. Take her on vacation and have her at your house for Christmas. Why Not?
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Abby2018 Oct 2021
Indeed, life is short. All the more reason for her mother to acknowledge that if her children want to share their day with her, be grateful. Where the holiday takes place is of no consequence. Just because we age it does not give us license to behave like demanding, spoiled children.
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This question is very troublesome for me. My only sibling passed aways 7 years ago this coming November. I moved back from 17 years in Texas and left a solid job to take care of my mom. That was 5 years ago. It took me 3 years to figure out that she was not capable of being different then what she is, by doing much research on Youtube. I had to learn to not take things that she says or does personally, because her brain is broken. I promised her that she would never go into a NH. There are times that I feel like I am in my own personal hell, but sometimes we have to suffer, because there is a greater plan that we do not understand. I know, I am getting deep here. I can only discuss from my own experiences here, but in my heart, I know that the holidays are the hardest for anyone who is alone, because I am. Over the last five years, I have thrown out my back trying to make the holidays as awesome for my mom as possible, because I am never sure if it is her last. She complains about the food, or gets freaked out if something is changed, or there is too much commotion around her. I try to walk in her shoes and realize that to her, I am still her child and not a senior myself. I face this everyday, since I live in her unfinished basement so that she does not fear being alone. I do this not because this is how I want my days to be, but because God told me to honor my mother, whether she be an * Old Lady* or not and because no matter who she has become; she is still (somewhere inside of her) the mother that raised me, and cared for me when I was ill and unable to care for myself. I think there are some great ideas here on this page, but please take the time to breath, and ask yourself how will you feel next Christmas if she is no longer on this earth, and you chose not to spend Christmas with her this year? I cannot answer this question for you, but I want to help you feel comfort in the days past this one day that we celebrate the gift of unconditional love. The day that Jesus was born to save the world by his sacrifice. God bless you. I pray that you will find the right answer for you and your mother.
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rovana Oct 2021
I respect your beliefs Raskasha. You are doing what you believe you need to do. I cannot however, agree with what seems to be your definition of "honor your parents". I think that this means to treat your parents with respect but does not mean you have to accommodate their every wish. You are not responsible for their happiness. They are.
I would like to point out something that would apply to believers. If your parent has lived the life of a bully and abuser (I am not talking about behavior due to dementia), then ask yourself if you should encourage them? This is evil behavior and they will soon be standing before the Lord to be judged. Is it not better and kinder to push them, in any way you can, to morally decent behavior?
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BHItn2u and Mahogany,

People like helenb63 and myself have almost always known a lot of guilting for a lot of years in our lives.
We usually come from narcissistic, gaslighting, abusive parents too. All too often we are the ones who drew the short straw in childhood and became family scapegoats. We became emotional dumping grounds and whipping posts for our selfish, narcissistic, bullying mothers to 'take it out on' because they're usually too cowardly to take it out on another adult.
So, employing the old familiar guilt trip of 'mom won't be here forever' and 'you'll be old yourself someday' doesn't fly with us. People like us have had way too much blame and guilt put on us for a long time and we did nothing wrong.

NO ONE owes an old person anything simply because they are old.
No one has a right to expect to get in this life what they were never willing to give themselves.
Some narcissist who always came first, last, and always in their life does not deserve nor should they expect their adult kids to cater to them when they become needy and demanding in their old age. I don't think so. These kinds of parents should count themselves lucky if their adult kids make sure they have food and a safe environment to live in and that's usually more than they deserve.
This is a support group. No one needs to have the guilt trips put on them here.
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NavyVet90 Oct 2021
BurntCaregiver,
Bingo! If I could give you a thousand "likes" instead of just one, I would.
Narcissists are emotional vampires. People who had a nice upbringing with normal parents instead of toxic and abusive ones have NO idea what we have endured. My sociopathic Narc father was so impossible to deal with that both my physical and mental health were ruined to the point I had to go No contact a couple months before the pandemic broke out. I made sure he was well taken care of at the ALF. I had lost all love and respect for him years ago as my mother bore the brunt of his abuse. I lived in the F.O.G. for so many years. We did not spend his last Christmas (2019) with him. Hubby and I stayed home and had a quiet peaceful day.
It is often said that extreme Narcissists usually die alone because they have driven everyone away. He was a miserable toxic person. It was such a relief when it was over; no more gaslighting, scapegoating, temper tantrums, complaining, lying, crying wolf, wild goose chases, etc.
I have not felt an ounce of guilt or grief. My blood pressure and PTSD are doing much better now.
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She is making a 'big ask' of you. The calls and errands and visits you do on a regular basis are mostly invisible to her...no matter how long a visit lasts, she will mostly focus on the time you are not there. So you are doing quite a bit already.

Your mom has 2 other choices - dinner at the AL (if she chooses not to attend and have it served in her room, she can choose that) or travel to your brother's house (if that option is still open to her.) Coming to your house for dinner is not an option this year. You don't have to give her an explanation.
What if you and your brother pick a day before Christmas to go to the AL and celebrate with her? Or take her out to a restaurant, or even back to your house? You can share a meal and memories, enjoy Christmas decorations, take photos, and return her to AL in a few hours. That gives her a Christmas celebration with her two adult children.
This also shows your adult children and grandchildren that are lots of ways to celebrate holidays,or start conversations about what a holiday means, to each person. Hallmark holidays only happen on TV.
You don't say it, but I imagine your 'not very social' mother in law doesn't interact much with your adult children and grandchildren...if only because there is more activity and it is hard for her to keep up.
Just my 2 cents.
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helenb63 Oct 2021
Helpful; thank you.
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Just had a similar conversation with my Mom yesterday. She would rather come to my house than my daughters. Too bad. We will pick her up to go to my daughters or she can stay home. Do what u want. She chooses to go or not.
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I would not feel guilty sending her to brothers. Just because she doesn’t want does not matter. You can go visit your grands they are only small for such a short time. Enjoy them while you can.
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I hope you’ll take a trip with other family. The chances for fun times don’t always come back. And always know the beauty of being an adult is getting to choose what you will and won’t do, no need for explanations or guilt
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Tunfet Oct 2021
This is a great idea. Your husband, children and grandchildren deserve your love and attention too. And you deserve to enjoy your time with them.
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I cannot believe some of the answers you are receiving here. A simple 'no' from some of those commenting below, would have been suffice. 

You could possibly have answered your question yourself. 

I cannot believe some of the answers you are receiving here. A simple 'no' from some of those commenting below would have been suffice. 

You could possibly have answered your question yourself or you could take the worst possible advice that's been on here in quite awhile.  No wonder people are in the shape they're in today .
And I don't even want to hear what you 'old' people think. I'm 30 years old & I not only care for mum, but grandparents AND work at a Nursing Home.

So, go ahead & start smoothing out your own wrinkles in the mirror. When you do - I guarantee you'll see the reflection of your narcissistic children running past you to do something that's a lot more fun😊
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shuffle Oct 2021
I hope to never need help.
But if I do, I hope to be kind and grateful for the help.

I do not have children.
But I like to think that if I had, I would have been a kind, caring, loving, nurturing, thoughtful, patient, protective, understanding, good role model in their life. I hope they would have felt safe in their home with me.

We were not all that lucky to have had even 1 person like that growing up in our life. So please before you judge, come back when you have more experience, and are more aware of yourself. You will take stock of how you were raised, and who is to blame for the good or the bad and based on that you will understand more.

You need to be aware that many parents were not good to their children. Many parents are guilty of every kind of abuse imaginable and even some you would never imagine. The people complaining about their parents on this forum most likely did not have caring nurturing parents. If you are lucky enough to have good parents that is great, You are luckier than most.
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Personally, I look at it this way and not all will agree. She is a narcissist and you did not have a good relationship. She has lived her life and that is her problem. You are living your life now with your offspring as you should be doing. I would discuss with your brother (l) DOES ANYONE WANT HER TO COME? If not, let her stay at assisted living so the others have peace and harmony. (2) Decide who, if either of you, wants her to come but beforehand lay down very strict boundaries what will and what will not be tolerated - and be ready to enforce those rules. I personally would NOT have her if it disrupted my life and family - they come first.
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Riley2166 Oct 2021
And whoever decides to have it, that is where the dinner will be whether she likes it or not. Tough.
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I feel sorry for your mother and I don't even know her. Whatever you feel you could live with then you should do. Have a Merry Christmas whatever you decide.
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Hopeforhelp22 Oct 2021
To Isabelsdaughter - since you "feel sorry" for her mother, as you say, then perhaps YOU should invite her to your home for Christmas holiday! :-)

And you are right - you stated that "you don't even know her mother"...I think I can guarantee that if you did know what a covert narcissist mother is really like, then you would feel differently.
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J Bryan, you may be one of the lucky ones. With my Mom, this question would have never been asked. Her kids were happy when she was around. Even my curmudgeon father. But not everyone have parents like this. There are people that are so negative and controlling, they ruin get togethers. Its all about them. They have no idea how to enjoy themselves and just bring everything down.

This mother has someplace to go for the Holiday her sons. Its his turn. Helen had her last year. Mom has no choice, it her son's turn.
"Mom, he would be so hurt if you didn't come" 😊
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You mother cannot shift any responsibility 'for her life,' without your consent and willingness to do so (unless you are the legal POA and have these responsibilities). It sounds to me that you and perhaps your husband need to decide what you want to do and set boundaries, explaining clearly to your mother what you will and will not do.
* While I understand the sense of obligation, these are internal feelings / behaviors likely established decades ago.
* there comes a time - like now - when you take your personal power back and do what you want to do, realizing that the feelings of obligation may lurk around for a while as this is new behavior.
- If you have difficulty setting limits, enlist the support of your family, a social worker, or a therapist.
- This care isn't all on you unless you decide it is. This doesn't mean making these decisions are easy. They are not. However, you need to evaluate the quality of your life, your life-style, your relationship with your spouse and the rest of your family - and figure out what you want.
* I would presume that others in your family could help YOU out - ? Perhaps talk to them. This is NOT about your mother making decisions and 'ruling the roost' as she likely did all your life (being a narscisst as you say) It is about you taking your personal power back and doing what is right for you, with the support and help of your family.
* Be aware that you use phrases such as "do we have to . . . " you need to be aware every moment you say this or words / phrases that give your mother the power to decide what YOU do. NO YOU DON'T HAVE TO. And tell yourself that when you reframe your thoughts . . . which translate into behavior.
- Learn to reframe these thoughts. Take back your inner power. You deserve a quality (of) life, TOO. Right?
*****
Yes, that 'obligation' darkness will lurk over you like a thundering storm about to drench you; be ready for it and observe "Oh, I feel . . . without the judgment).
- If you can do just this - it'll be huge. When you remove the judgment, you can make healthy decisions for yourself, and your mother.
*****
From my point of view, you and your husband have EVERY right to choose what the two of you do; you need to feel this in your gut and heart. Otherwise, Mommy Dearest will have her way with you. Here's a hug. Gena
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helenb63 Oct 2021
Much appreciated and we do try to get a balance, but it's hard after nearly 60 years of mind training!
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Let’s go back to Helen’s original question because it’s pertinent to many people on this forum.

”But it’s the sense of obligation and the perceived unfairness that niggle me: do my husband and I have a moral ‘right’ to choose what we do... or do we have to put mum’s wishes first.”

Christmas is two months away and the poor woman is already worried about needing a break from her mother, for a single holiday, with other provisions available.

She’s suffering with the unfairness of bearing the burden unilaterally.

She’s not asking for tips on how to reduce the stress of pandering to her narcissistic mother’s wishes. Those well-intended suggestions compound the sense of obligation.

She’s considered the realities of having her mother for Christmas and decided that’s not best for her and her husband this year.

She’s asking members of this caregiver group for approval, or permission, or a maybe a simple lack of condemnation, to prioritize her and her husband’s needs.

Yes. It’s ok to take a break for Christmas.
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helenb63 Oct 2021
Thank you!
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helenb63: Imho, quite honestly, you have want to have her over for a limited amount of hours. Ergo, you would not feel immense guilt over not doing so, if you were to chose that route. However, you do not have any moral obligation.
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OMG. If she only wants to go to your house, and you don't want to do it, Don't Do It! She is trying to manipulate and control you and has no care in the world about your happiness or quality of life. You do what you want to do, and if she gets "stuck" spending her holiday at the ALF, then she will have to deal with that. Parents with declining cognitive function still seem to be expert emotional manipulators! Your quality of life is Just As important as hers!!
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If you don't want her over, don't! Maybe drop off some leftovers later but enjoy your family at your home.
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I also have a covert narcissist for a mom and mine is 93 yrs old. I am an only child. I will not be having her over for Christmas dinner. I prefer to spend my Christmas with people who I truly love and people who truly love me. Unfortunately, that is not my CNM. I truly hope you find peace and happiness with whatever decision you make. I truly feel for you. 💕
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I think it would go better if you visited her for only so many hours than if you had her over.
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Edit: You *may* want to have her over.
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Helenb63,
I give you permission to enjoy your Christmas without your mother.
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NO. She is safe where she is and Christmas lunch is provided. You have children and Grandchildren it would be perfectly reasonable that you went to see them on Christmas day (it may suit you better for them to come to you, but perhaps they would like you to go there, in which case you would not be available to have her to yours.) Talk to your brother and your children and decide what you would like between you. I expect you see far more of your mother than you do your children, so just for one day a year the wishes of other people come first. There is a difference between obligation and fairness, and satisfaction of a self centralist person you do your best for throughout the year. Take a holiday and relax for a few days.
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helenb63 Oct 2021
Thank you for understanding!
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Helen, can we just clarify the timeline here?

Your father died x years ago.
Your mother continued to live alone for [time], then unilaterally decided to move nearer to you.
For x years, you and brother alternated Christmases.
X years ago, mother stopped going to brother for whatever reason (probably dispute related, to do with sprout preparation or pigs-in-blankets or Queen's Christmas message or when to open presents - those are the big issues).
So how many Christmases on the trot have you done now?

It is definitely his turn, I'm just wondering how big a precedent you have to overcome.

Christmas lunch at the ALF is for people who don't have any family within travelling distance, or not that can tolerate them anyway. It isn't reasonable to expect your mother to include herself voluntarily in that category. "My presence is a nuisance to my children, this is only natural and I must accept it" is a bit too big a philosophical ask, really.
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JoAnn29 Oct 2021
My Moms AL was local people. The Holiday Dinners were for families to join in. I chose not to attend because too many people. My Mom always had Holiday dinners with us since I lived 5 min away.
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if you don’t want her over, just say no. It sounds like such a gathering would be less than enjoyable all around.

Certainly you recognize that your post is extremely offensive to many of the participants in this forum who have lost a parent and are overcome with grief when faced with nostalgic thoughts of the holidays.

I’m glad, though, that you are asking in this anonymous place rather than asking people that know you.

Sounds like the Apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.
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LPRhelp Oct 2021
Walk a mile in someone else’s shoes. Each person has a different journey with their parents and family. Don’t judge.
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My relationship with my parents was a close one. Even if my brothers had lived in the same town, I would have probably been the one depended on, which was OK. I never complained but unknowingly set boundries. I worked and had a family so my parents understood I would do when I could. Mom was happy as long as it got done.

But my GF had a mother who she never understood why she treated her like she did. No physical abuse but it was very obvious that younger sister was favored. It was so bad when Summer came, her Mom shipped her off to relatives 7 hrs away till school started. She was one miserable lady.

Thank God that you have never been around a narcissistic person. Its all about them. They really don't know how to love and have very little empathy. They bring everyone down.

I had a friend's boys tell her that she was not invited to Christmas dinner because they didn't want the Drama. She just couldn't go and enjoy the time with her son, she had to make her comments to others that she rarely sees her sons so it was nice finally being invited and so on and so on. She never saw where she was wrong.

Yes, this woman is old and won't be around much longer, but SHE has made her bed. People don't want to be around negative people. Yes, its harsh. Me, I am 72 and I really don't want my remaining Holidays ruined by a negative person.
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Helen, has Brother invited Mother properly for this year yet? 🤞
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helenb63 Oct 2021
No, he says it's up to her, which means she will choose us!
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Just a suggestion:
Most AL facilities work hard at having an exceptionally nice Christmas dinner and may welcome families who make reservations. Could you work this into your schedule? Bring her some gifts or special treats, Then celebrate at another time with whomever and however you wish. If you attend dinner at the facility, she won't be able to call the shots, claim you abandoned her or run the show. And it won't be a long drawn-out affair since care givers there must get on with their usual duties.

You don't need to offer her an elaborate "excuse"...anything that seems appropriate .Could be just have "some other plans for the day" or claim you want a break from all the cooking etc. "We thought this might be a nice change!" could be enough...Keep it brief, simple, than change the subject.
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helenb63 Oct 2021
I think the AL usually do welcome family members, but of course this year may be different because of rising COVID cases. We are also trying to fit in with the varying plans of three children and four grandchildren, whom of course we want to see and we want Mum to see, but it's a difficult juggling act!

Thanks for all the practical suggestions - clearly not my strong suit.
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This is your life and your traditions to make.
Go away with your family and simply say you are unavailable.
Sounds like you have had years with her there, so there is no law it has to be every year.
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I see my mom the weekend before or after the holiday for similar reasons. It's just too much to do everything on the same day.

It's her choice if she wants to skip your brother's year and you don't have to fill in the gap. She may decide that it's better to go to your brother's house than be alone. It Is Her Choice to be alone if it is his turn.

You are not responsible if she chooses to be alone, even if she tries to guilt you into it. You do not have to tie yourself into knots trying to please someone who won't treat you well.
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In my area there is talk of shutting things down, no elective surgeries, etc again. Maybe it will happen where you are too. Problem solved.
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Helen, in my book, one of the marks of being an adult is being able to say "no" to one's parents with big drama on your own part.

"That doesn't fit in with our plans this year".

"We've decided to do Christmas early this year and make it quieter so you don't get frazzled like you did last year".

"I'm having some health issues and my doctor has told me to tine the holidays down this year".

If the parent creates drama, tries to manipulate or induce guilt, keep quiet, don't react, respond with an "hmmmm".

Call up your brother and tell him that you cannot and will not invite your mom this year due to your health and her unhappiness at your home in the past.

It sounds like your mom carries her unhappiness around with her wherever she goes. Your husband needs to realize this.

No one is responsible for the happiness of another.
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helenb63 Oct 2021
Thanks, Barb. Might just try that!
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