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Just had a similar conversation with my Mom yesterday. She would rather come to my house than my daughters. Too bad. We will pick her up to go to my daughters or she can stay home. Do what u want. She chooses to go or not.
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She is making a 'big ask' of you. The calls and errands and visits you do on a regular basis are mostly invisible to her...no matter how long a visit lasts, she will mostly focus on the time you are not there. So you are doing quite a bit already.

Your mom has 2 other choices - dinner at the AL (if she chooses not to attend and have it served in her room, she can choose that) or travel to your brother's house (if that option is still open to her.) Coming to your house for dinner is not an option this year. You don't have to give her an explanation.
What if you and your brother pick a day before Christmas to go to the AL and celebrate with her? Or take her out to a restaurant, or even back to your house? You can share a meal and memories, enjoy Christmas decorations, take photos, and return her to AL in a few hours. That gives her a Christmas celebration with her two adult children.
This also shows your adult children and grandchildren that are lots of ways to celebrate holidays,or start conversations about what a holiday means, to each person. Hallmark holidays only happen on TV.
You don't say it, but I imagine your 'not very social' mother in law doesn't interact much with your adult children and grandchildren...if only because there is more activity and it is hard for her to keep up.
Just my 2 cents.
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helenb63 Oct 2021
Helpful; thank you.
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BHItn2u and Mahogany,

People like helenb63 and myself have almost always known a lot of guilting for a lot of years in our lives.
We usually come from narcissistic, gaslighting, abusive parents too. All too often we are the ones who drew the short straw in childhood and became family scapegoats. We became emotional dumping grounds and whipping posts for our selfish, narcissistic, bullying mothers to 'take it out on' because they're usually too cowardly to take it out on another adult.
So, employing the old familiar guilt trip of 'mom won't be here forever' and 'you'll be old yourself someday' doesn't fly with us. People like us have had way too much blame and guilt put on us for a long time and we did nothing wrong.

NO ONE owes an old person anything simply because they are old.
No one has a right to expect to get in this life what they were never willing to give themselves.
Some narcissist who always came first, last, and always in their life does not deserve nor should they expect their adult kids to cater to them when they become needy and demanding in their old age. I don't think so. These kinds of parents should count themselves lucky if their adult kids make sure they have food and a safe environment to live in and that's usually more than they deserve.
This is a support group. No one needs to have the guilt trips put on them here.
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NavyVet90 Oct 2021
BurntCaregiver,
Bingo! If I could give you a thousand "likes" instead of just one, I would.
Narcissists are emotional vampires. People who had a nice upbringing with normal parents instead of toxic and abusive ones have NO idea what we have endured. My sociopathic Narc father was so impossible to deal with that both my physical and mental health were ruined to the point I had to go No contact a couple months before the pandemic broke out. I made sure he was well taken care of at the ALF. I had lost all love and respect for him years ago as my mother bore the brunt of his abuse. I lived in the F.O.G. for so many years. We did not spend his last Christmas (2019) with him. Hubby and I stayed home and had a quiet peaceful day.
It is often said that extreme Narcissists usually die alone because they have driven everyone away. He was a miserable toxic person. It was such a relief when it was over; no more gaslighting, scapegoating, temper tantrums, complaining, lying, crying wolf, wild goose chases, etc.
I have not felt an ounce of guilt or grief. My blood pressure and PTSD are doing much better now.
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This question is very troublesome for me. My only sibling passed aways 7 years ago this coming November. I moved back from 17 years in Texas and left a solid job to take care of my mom. That was 5 years ago. It took me 3 years to figure out that she was not capable of being different then what she is, by doing much research on Youtube. I had to learn to not take things that she says or does personally, because her brain is broken. I promised her that she would never go into a NH. There are times that I feel like I am in my own personal hell, but sometimes we have to suffer, because there is a greater plan that we do not understand. I know, I am getting deep here. I can only discuss from my own experiences here, but in my heart, I know that the holidays are the hardest for anyone who is alone, because I am. Over the last five years, I have thrown out my back trying to make the holidays as awesome for my mom as possible, because I am never sure if it is her last. She complains about the food, or gets freaked out if something is changed, or there is too much commotion around her. I try to walk in her shoes and realize that to her, I am still her child and not a senior myself. I face this everyday, since I live in her unfinished basement so that she does not fear being alone. I do this not because this is how I want my days to be, but because God told me to honor my mother, whether she be an * Old Lady* or not and because no matter who she has become; she is still (somewhere inside of her) the mother that raised me, and cared for me when I was ill and unable to care for myself. I think there are some great ideas here on this page, but please take the time to breath, and ask yourself how will you feel next Christmas if she is no longer on this earth, and you chose not to spend Christmas with her this year? I cannot answer this question for you, but I want to help you feel comfort in the days past this one day that we celebrate the gift of unconditional love. The day that Jesus was born to save the world by his sacrifice. God bless you. I pray that you will find the right answer for you and your mother.
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rovana Oct 2021
I respect your beliefs Raskasha. You are doing what you believe you need to do. I cannot however, agree with what seems to be your definition of "honor your parents". I think that this means to treat your parents with respect but does not mean you have to accommodate their every wish. You are not responsible for their happiness. They are.
I would like to point out something that would apply to believers. If your parent has lived the life of a bully and abuser (I am not talking about behavior due to dementia), then ask yourself if you should encourage them? This is evil behavior and they will soon be standing before the Lord to be judged. Is it not better and kinder to push them, in any way you can, to morally decent behavior?
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Life is short. Appreciate your mom while she’s here. Take her on vacation and have her at your house for Christmas. Why Not?
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Abby2018 Oct 2021
Indeed, life is short. All the more reason for her mother to acknowledge that if her children want to share their day with her, be grateful. Where the holiday takes place is of no consequence. Just because we age it does not give us license to behave like demanding, spoiled children.
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I find this heartbreaking. As a mother and grandmother myself, I have spent many holidays alone. Mostly due to my children living across the country. One of my children does not celebrate xmas, which is fine with me. She has just moved to my area ( not to be close to me but a job ) The main thing I find as a senior myself ( 78) . its heartbreaking to read all these remarks and wonder how my children feel about me. Think about when your mother dies, at her age and with dementia it won't be long and you will be free of your mother. Sadly it seems she is a burden to you at least during a holiday. One day you will be old yourself, how do you want your children to feel about you?
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Mahogany Oct 2021
I agree with you. I’m on. This site quite often. I can believe the reactions to some of theses questions. I was around my mother all the time and moved in with her to care for her. She crossed over this year. I will love to have her back. I Loved my Parents. I can’t understand those that act as though their parents are a burden.
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In healthy loving families, we have freedom to choose and freedom to have boundaries. Don’t listen to anyone who thinks it’s selfish or tries to shame you. You are allowed to have a life outside of your mother ( my daughter does and I’m so thankful).
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Nothing whatsoever is wring with going away with your own family once in a while for Xmas.
Your Brother can have mom over that year for Xmas or she can stay at the facility if she doesn't want to go to your brothers.

I do understand however if you children and Grands come down, tour mom would want to see everyone and should but just let her know she can't spend the night because there is No Room.
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Boy oh boy do I get that. Unfortunately I have no choice because my mother LIVES with us. She's 93. What a dilemma. I feel for you, I really do.
UNFORTUNATELY..... most people do not have the slightest idea what it is to have to have a narc for a parent. I do. I would say, LEAVE TOWN. Just this once- tell her you promised the kids, whatever. You definitely need a break. Don't listen to people who say you are being selfish because with a parent like that, believe me, YOU HAVE TO BE SELFISH FOR YOURSELF because they will take everything you have and everything you are.
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I can’t believe the selfish uncaring replies here !!! Of course it’s your responsibility to include mother for Christmas !!!!
how are you not even embarrassed
to ask ???
what an example you’re setting for your children … be ready for same
treatment when you’re there !!!
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BurntCaregiver Oct 2021
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You are free to do as you like. You might want to consider "changing up" the usual holiday gatherings. Maybe go to her place for a short time with the family for cookies, holiday drink, opening presents... whatever you and the family can endure.

I would suggest that part of the problem is not the holiday obligation but her worrisome behavior. Please consider reading any of the "boundary" books by Townsend and Cloud. With your spouse, come up with plans to deal with each of her problem behaviors - the books are really good at outlining steps to accomplish this. It might also help to book a few sessions with a therapist of counsellor to help with this process.
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rovana Oct 2021
Good advice but I must disagree with the idea of "holiday obligation". Who says that anyone is obliged to celebrate holidays in any particular way? Not the Bible, not the civil authorities, so just who is this "who"?
I've spent too many holidays washing dishes, endless kitchen clean up. Why not work on some holiday "traditions" that you can actually enjoy?
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When I was a kid my uncle and father had a falling out and did not speak for several years. We used to spend all our holidays together. My grandmother was not content to spend one holiday with one family and one with another. My uncle did most of their celebrating Christmas eve so my grandmother would be there, we celebrated Christmas morning and she insisted on being with us too. Problem was my grandmother and uncle lived 50 miles away. So my father (who was conditioned to my mommy happy at all costs) would get up in the middle to the night to drive down and pick her up so she would be with us Christmas morning. My mother made the trek with him just once then put her foot down. She was not leaving the house at 4am to pick up her mother in law only to come home and cater to the woman for the rest of the day. So yes, sometimes it is too much to ask.
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I would tell her sorry mom we are going to my brother's house for Christmas this year. They have asked us to come. I would also tell her this Christmas we have something else planned and we will be gone. Its time for your mother not to pick sides and put you in a bind. I would go with my family because you don't know what life with bring you in the end. Being at peace is priceless. Also I would tell her from this time on we will rotate Christmas's and there will be time for you to stay there if one of us decides to go on vacation somewhere. It won't hurt her to do this.
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I think you have done well up until now and now it’s time that you did what suits you I’m sure your mother will understand.
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Good god! Is it that much to ask?
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rovana Oct 2021
Yes, it can be too much to ask when it is just one more in an endless attempt to manipulate and control.
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It's Christmas dinner....family.....peace.....love....dove. It sounds pretty certain that you don't want her to come. In my own opinion, there should be a sense of obligation to include a parent in a holiday dinner/day. If you already had plans to be out of town, my answer would be different, but you tossed that end at the bottom of this post.

Since it's two months away and you're already this worked up over it, call your brother and ask him to collect her to go to his house. And ask that he not discuss it with her until closer to the holiday. No point making her fret over it until then. Situation solved and she won't be intruding on your family day.

There may be a little more going on that what meets the eye on this post. Maybe you can calm yourself by putting her at brother's house - and then plan new years or another special dinner at your house where an old lady wouldn't dampen the mood of the day. I'm kind of scratching my head on this one.
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Beatty Oct 2021
I don't know all the history here of course, but I can tell you I personally am starting to stress & it's 60 days away. I know! Chill right?

But past history can certainly trigger high emotions.

People wanting to arrive & be catered for, despite low mobility & lack of access. Despite not being invited. Despite their 'host' not even being home (at work).

I was where the OP seems to be (pressured & guilted) with what I suppose appeared, to outsiders, a reasonable request. To 'Have Mother (or whoever) over for Xmas'.

I's not really about if the request IS reasonable or not - to me it's a boundary issue.

It's Mother saying "I WANT" & testing her power.
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There does not IMO be any "moral obligation" to have anyone visit your house at Christmas or any other time. This does not sound like a religious celebration of Christmas, but more like a folk custom, like Thanksgiving. I'd just do what you and your family enjoy. After all, mom can celebrate at her facility if she wishes. It is on her.
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helenb63 Oct 2021
Actually we *are* churchgoers but Mum isn't, so that can cause friction too!!
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Has or will Brother invite her this year?

I think if he is willing to take turns - make that the plan this year.

No need to convince her. Brother's or AL. These are the only choices on table - SHE picks one.

A few strategies for you.

#1. Open. Mother, it's great you will get to see Brother & XYZ at Xmas this year. Yes, you have been invited there. Mine? No, that was last year. It's only fair we take turns. Honest & positive.

#2. Covert. Work behind the scenes. If Brother is inviting, then that is the plan. Let NOTHING deviate from this plan. Never bring it up. If she does, minimal response.

Mother is acting like a Queen Bee who has powers to dictate who will serve her.

Her motivation may be fear of being alone, fear of not being loved or wanted.

So if you do want to play her games, or smooth her feelings - ramp up how much she IS wanted - at Brother's this year, yours the next.

If she goes next level into Dictator Mode: everytime she says she IS coming to your home instead. Say, "YES. 2022. Be great. See you then". Every time.

I'd call that #3. Wear her down.

Two can play that game. But you will win (unless she can taxi to whereever you will be Xmas Day).

Best of luck!
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This one troubles me. To be left alone for Christmas, and feel no one wants you, is painful. I understand your perspective, but from hers she likely was a good, loving mother who is now being shut out because she is old and inconvenient. I am not saying that is what you think, just what it would likely be for her.

You, your brother, and your mother all live very near each other, so is a combo Christmas celebration somewhere possible? At her assisted living, ideally (if your local Covid restrictions allow), or some other neutral ground like a community hall or restaurant? Could it be on the 24th? Or 26th? You certainly don’t have to have her stay in your house to include her in some of your Christmas gatherings. Can any of your adult children be her transport for your gathering? We used to celebrate Christmas with my grandparents at their nursing home, brought in some easy-to-transport food, and gifts. There would be 20 of us there, at least, from half a dozen households with two hours about the longest drive away for anyone. It’s not the setting, nor the table, nor the food that makes a Christmas gathering, nor even the specific date. Each of our families also had Christmas gatherings in our houses, or at in-laws, outside of this one at the nursing home. Are any such alternatives possible?
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rovana Oct 2021
Your flexibility in terms of celebrating is a great idea.
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Yes--your mom's had her chance to dictate how you spend your Christmas for 87 years. And I'm guessing not just how, but with who and when. Head out and have your own holiday :)
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God help us one and all, here we go with yet ANOTHER blasted Holiday Season to stress out over and it's not even Halloween yet🤐

This year, we've invited ourselves over to my stepsons house for Thanksgiving. Christmas may be a pot luck at my house, MAYBE, where I'll provide the dinner rolls, the kids can bring the rest of the meal while I recline and get served.

Since my mother is in a wheelchair and too large to haul around, we visit her to celebrate the holidays a couple of days before the real holidays and bring food in to the memory care to share with her. Just Christmas Eve, Thanksgiving she eats at the MC and Christmas day dinner as well. Done and done.

If you want to go away for Christmas, tell mother you're going away and she can either spend that holiday with her son or at the AL, her choice. I'm an only child so it's me or nobody. Use your brother as your equal partner in sharing the burden of your difficult mother. That's what I'd do. Now that my mother's dementia has greatly advanced, it's actually gotten easier to get in and out of her MC with less fuss than it used to require when she was more lucid and demanding blood from me.

Wishing you the best of luck doing things YOUR way this year
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BurntCaregiver Oct 2021
lealonnie1,

A Christmas potluck at your house sounds pretty nice. Everybody brings something and it's not just one person driving themselves to exhaustion trying to do everything. I like this idea and am considering trying it myself this year.
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Warning ⚠️ Gut response a-coming..

No. You don't like it Mother? Diddums.

(I'll be back when I have read the other replies).
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Beatty Oct 2021
PS

I have just started a December Stress Discussion. This topic triggers an explosions of seething mess for me - & I do not wish lump it onto Helen's question.
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How about telling your mother that your brother would be incredibly hurt if she didn't stay with him this coming Christmas and that it's very important to him that she spend the time at his house...and it's really important that you all respect his wishes! How could she say no to her own son! Just explain that he's really looking forward to it - so it's already arranged !

Maybe it's all in the delivery of how you present the info to her - you can spin it to make it positive! :-)
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BurntCaregiver Oct 2021
Hopeforhelp22,

This is the best suggestion on the thread. Using "reverse guilt" to get the mother to go to the brother's house.
Very good idea. Helenb63 should lay it on thick to her mom about how bad her brother will feel if she doesn't go there for the holiday.
She should also add in that is it 'too much to ask' that mom go and spent the holiday with her son.
Brilliant!
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I decided after my marriage ended in divorce I was going to spend holidays with people who I liked and who liked me. I do not worry at all about other people's expectations of what I should do for the holidays.

I do not spend them with either of my parents. After decades of criticism from both of them, I have no interest in listening to it anymore. If I were to serve anything other than turkey all heck would break loose. Well you know what? I don't like anything other than the thigh meat and would rather have a nice roast for dinner, or better yet, brunch, the spend the day reading my new Christmas book all alone.

Helen, you have every right to spend Christmas any way you like. Do not feel any obligation to have someone who does not like to socialize anyways dictating how you spend the holidays.
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Frankly, when you get to your mother's age, Christmas can be any day in December or thereabouts. Just because you aren't there on the 25th, doesn't mean you aren't having "Christmas" with her.

You pick a date, call it Christmas, and that's the day you spend with Mom. Then you do Christmas when you want to with whomever you want to.
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If you want to go away for Christmas, go away for Christmas. If you're having it at home, though, it would be hard for her not to see being excluded as a slap in the face - what other interpretation could she put on it? Would you have any way of explaining why she's not invited except that she gives you a pain in the neck?

Or, you tell her that brother expects her to make an effort at least one year in three and will be hurt if she doesn't join his family. I assume this is approximately true. Is it???
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helenb63 Oct 2021
You're spot on, except my brother would probably prefer not to have her at his house - he says it's up to her, which means she will choose our house. It's very sad for her, actually, that none of us are desperate to have her. We don't mind the old pattern of alternating, it's just a lot to have her *every* year!
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I remember the stress of trying to coordinate getting my father from AL to my house on a holiday then back home. My son was nice enough to go and get him Christmas morning. He could not bring him back as he spent the latter part of the day with inlaws. So after hosting and cleaning up I had to chauffeur him home. I was exhausted. When my daughter lived home she would go and help but then she moved 2 hours away so could no longer help with this. I don't think they ever knew or appreciated the amount of work it really was to include them in a holiday celebration.
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Boundries should have been set when Mom first entered the AL. She has staff who can take care of her needs. 3 meals a day and snacks. She does not want to socialize, then that is her problem. You cannot be at her beck and call. What do you have to do for her other than maybe keep her supplied in Depends and toiletries.

If this is Brother's year than that is where she goes. I like the idea of having dinner at the AL and stopping in Christmas morning with a little something. If all Mom contributes to the get together is negativity, then I wouldn't have her. Or have the dinner Christmas Eve and have Mom over Christmas Day for leftovers.

Does Mom spend the night? Good reason not to have her, sorry girls and grands are coming home, no room.

I personally have to have boundries or I get overwhelmed. My Mom was easy but when she had to stop driving I set one day a week to shop, go to the bank and lunch out. Dr visits were done when I could do them, I worked p/t. We lived in the same town so picking up things, when I was out, was not a big problem. But it was, when u can.
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If you want to go away for the holiday that is your choice. Simply tell mom that you will be out of town this Christmas and that she goes to brothers house or she stays in the AL.
She makes the choice to "not be sociable" so if she eats dinner in her room that is up to her. I would think the facility staff would try to get her more involved but if they have tried and she still prefers to be alone that is her choice.
And...it is your house you can invite whom ever you wish to.
(personally I would not want to go anywhere where someone felt "obligated" to invite me, if I am not truly wanted I would rather stay at home)
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helenb63 Oct 2021
We don't mind having her every other year, as I don't like the idea of her being alone even if it is just another day to her; it's just another psychological burden when it's *every* year.
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We usually did a family party ay mom's NH the weekend befire or after a holiday.

We spent each holiday with our own family.
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helenb63 Oct 2021
Good idea - maybe we could try that with my brother. Thank you.
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