I have a rather unique situation that I could use some good input on. First off, I am my Fathers Durable POA as well as the POA for his Last Will and Testament. When we went to the Attorney's office to have him draft up all the documents, my Father's wishes were me first, then my sister and lastly my brother who is also on a separate document, the Caregiver for my Father.
I diligently watch all of my fathers accounts to assure that all of his bills are being paid, and nothing suspicious is happening with any of his 4 active accounts. Recently, my sister and I had a rather bad feeling that my brother who as I mentioned is my Dad's caregiver was possibly doing something wrong. He has a past history of gambling and running up debts in my mother and father's name. That was a few years back when my mother was alive, but for now, my sister and I know exactly what his financial situation is because of everything that was disclosed at the Attorney's office prior to making him the Caregiver. So let me jump to the actual situation at hand. My brother has the same name as my father, he's a Jr. Recently my sister and I ran a credit report on my Dad and found out that 5 new credit cards had been opened up in his name. Well after approaching my brother on this, since we knew it wasn't our 83 yr. old father who did this, our brother fessed up and said he did it. He racked up $40K in debt on the 5 cards. Now, we brought this to my father's attention and since his health issues have to do with memory conditions, he said "it's just money, we will resolve it" well as you can imagine that made my sister and I livid beyond words. My father and his brother who is several years younger 68, went to the Attorney and the Attorney who drafted up the original documents told my Father and Uncle to immediately remove me as the POA as well as my sisters name as 2nd in line.!!!! and obviously remove my brother from everything. The reasoning which I am having a hard time believing is that the Attorney indicated to my father and uncle that I could be held responsible for my brothers actions???? Although I guess I failed in some ways, I feel as though my responsibility was to watch my father's active accounts which I did and nothing was taken from those and everything was fine in that arena. Am I responsible for running occasional credit reports on my Dad to assure this his eldest son wasn't in fact doing what he was doing?? Anyway I sure could use some input on this as to what my liability is as it pertains to my brother's wrongful acts.
thank you
BTW, is your brother paying off the monthly bills he has accrued in your dad' name?
Let me see if I can simply two stories. The first one my parents had friends that they had known for 45 years. I discovered by a pure fluke that my mom was giving them big chunks of money and that their "friends" were using them for the money. Oh man was I ticked off. I wrote my parents' friends letters and the responses I got back just confirmed more and more how they were abusing my parents. So I go another attorney that handled elder abuse cases (did the free consult). Brought the proof before the attorney, and he discussed with me the course of actions available. We took them. Fortunately, I didn't have to follow through with the attorney any longer because shortly thereafter they were moved out of state for their daughter to care for them and then they passed. It was a blessing in disguise, but I was not going to allow these people to abuse their friendship. It was a headache to deal with no doubt, but I had all the proof of the financial elder abuse they had done and had an attorney willing to go the distance.
My mom had one surviving sister and three surviving brothers. Realize my mom was narcissistic which also doesn't help the situation with family throughout this whole process. Then I had mom's brother, Uncle Idiot! Oh man. Now there's a story. Basic gist was my mother was to receive her sister's total inheritance due to a long story and history behind that. My husband had witnessed the verbal agreement and heard all the discussions between my mother and her sister upon her death. My mother was supposed to receive it all. It was a fairly large inheritance.
Well over the years when I found out mom's sister was having a hard time in Florida where they lived and we are in Michigan, I called my Uncle Idiot's wife at the time to see if she wanted to go down there with me and help out. She would always say no, and politely give excuses. Well come to find out after the fact years later, she and her son would go down to Florida quite frequently to help. They also got themselves on the will for half of everything.
Well skipping a lot of the lies and stories, jumping to where my mother's sister and her husband hand now passed, now we had the Florida estate to deal with. A Florida attorney who was handed the case, was a crook!!! He was trying to got Uncle Idiot to have mom sign off on her part of the estate so "he" could take care of everything. Now I was mom's POA and I had a right to go down to Florida to help handle things, etc, but with all the screwing around that this attorney in Florida did, Uncle Idiot sold things out from under mom, etc. It got so bad with the attorney trying to teach my uncle how to isolate mom to get her to sign off on the estate paperwork, that I had to unplug mom's phone and turn off the ringer so that her "sweet baby brother" would not con her into signing off anything. Finally I got mom to sign the estate papers that would start where they would equally divide everything in half. I was ticked because I couldn't protect her previously, but I was certainly going to protect her now.
Uncle Idiot was a pain in the total butt! I showed him the POA papers I had and highlighted my responsibilities and accountability issues. He would pass it on to the Florida attorney and that moron would try to intimidate me with legalese. Oh I was not going to let these two take advantage of my mother. So I hired an attorney in FL that was a pit bull to keep an eye on this moron attorney. Thank God for that! But the intimidation by my idiot uncle and the original estate attorney was a nightmare. Then at one point something happened where some money was found in the home in FL and according to the moron estate attorney he said that a reward of ten grand should be given to the cleaning company who found it. Oh that was a whole other issue, but in the end, I won protecting mom from just pure stupidity.
As a POA, make sure you read what you are signing. For me, I could have been held liable if I was negligent in my duties over their finances and their health, but I had proof and documentation and plenty of witnesses along the way that watched me in action.
I would not recommend this job to anyone, however, if you are going to take it on, make sure you have the tenacity to do what is needed. Sometimes it is against those like my parent's friends for 45 years. Sometimes its protecting them against their own family members, but never apologize for taking care of your own. They put you in charge to handle things because they believe you can do it.
The other thing if they do not have memory issues, you cannot change the fact they are allowed to make up their mind. Find an outlet to get angry, but remember you have to know in your heart you did everything you could to the best of your ability and now its out of your hands. Those that are taking advantage are the slime. Your parents are the victim. If you can help them, help at all costs, if you cannot, then just pray to God that He will provide a covering and watch from afar.
God bless each of you that are POAs. It's a bear of a job, but it does end eventually. I'm there! Now comes the recovery for me. :)
It does sound like your uncle is less likely to put up with your bro's shenanigans, & is closer and able to keep a better eye on things. You are right in that it IS your Dad's $ to waste, and as long as he is cared for... . As wierd as it sounds, maybe take Dad up on the early inheritance offer if it can be done, as that is the best way to protect the assets 100% from your Bro. You can always use the $ to help your father later if he needs it. Talk to Uncle first, of course, & tell him why. YOU know you & Sis are innocent of all wrong-doing, but even if Uncle believes you he needs to be most concerned about protecting his bro.
Something sounds odd that the atty, wants to put blame on you...
I would also take all documentation to the PD and file a report ...stolen identity, fraud, $40.000 the Police should take it very seriously because of the amount. I believe it is definitely a Felony!!
I don't know how you can be held liable? Just make sure you are accounting for all dealings with the money and this will fall into place.
There does seem to be something strange going on with the lawyer and I am glad you and your sis will be speaking to him directly. This is imperative.
Your dad has already extended himself buying a nice home your bro and sil. Now bro has created a debt for your dad. Where is this going to end? Your bro had found himself a soft spot and is taking full advantage of it. Sil is not the only enabler here. Anyone who has any power over this and allows it to continue, is an enabler. I agree he should pay back the $40 K. My oldest son was a gambler. I helped him out as I saw fit, but he paid every cent of it back - and that was the condition of me helping him. Thankfully, he has been clean now for a number of years, so it can be done. He took himself to treatment several times. However, he did not ask for help until he had hit bottom as was pretty desperate. Don't protect your bro from the consequences of his actions - not saying you are - but stressing the importance of him experiencing the consequences of his behaviours in leading him to a recovery path. That he fessed up is great and could be a turning point for him if this is handled correctly. I saw an addictions counsellor and recommend that for you and your sis at least to get guidance from one as to how not to enable, and what you can do towards urging your bro to get help, and whether or not "keeping it in the family" is wise and beneficial to all. Also a counselor may help you consider the wisdom of bro staying on as caretaker, all things considered.
It is a very challenging situation. I think you are not liable as your father is still deemed competent. so he can spend his money as he wishes, but a consultation with a different lawyer seems sensible to clarify the situation. The current lawyer's suggestions do seem strange, though he did well by removing your bro. I know you want to do all you can to protect your dad.
(((((((hugs))))) to you and prayers for this to work out well for all
Secondly, you can report to the new credit cards that they were opened by your brother and not your dad. If the signatures do not match your dad's he committed forgery and credit card fraud. You can report them and the credit card companies will do the research.
But I strongly suggest you can an attorney to assist you out and protect yourself. I am having to do that right now. I am getting a lot of crap from siblings yet I put out the most money for my mom and am the caregiver.
So seek legal advice for yourself.
Being accused of elder abuse is scary. I’ve read enough on this site to see how APS came down hard on people just from simple accusations and/or bruises. I would not want to have their attention to turn to me at all. I agree with LEP. Protect yourselves because you all know that bro is Not going to stop. He has an addiction to spending and he will find a way.
I was about to mention the credit block that ellantz mentioned. I saw that on HLN News. Since father is still competent, I would ask him to agree to this. If you believe your uncle is trustworthy, then put his name on file. You can’t use your father’s name because your brother almost shares the same name. A person can call up the house and bro will pretend to be father. While visiting, ask your uncle why you have been moved to 3 name and why sis was kicked out. And why the distant cousin? Does uncle/father know the reputation of this distant cousin? Is he dependable? I’d also do my homework on cousin.
Can you please update us on the news as it happens? I’m so curious on all these whys…
Good luck to you.
You had asked about our sister in law, good question. She is as big of an enabler as some say my Dad is at this point. She pretends not to have known anything about her own husbands actions as it pertained to the credit cards. My sister and I do not believe her or my brother for one minute!!! As I analyzed all of his spending from the various cards once he disclosed all the usernames and passwords to me so I could review this, there were a plethora of charges that went to her, as well as the house . She knows what income they have since it's primarily hers from teaching and for her to pretend that she knew nothing of this makes me more bitter than I already am!!!
To Lep627: thank you again for your comments! I really didn't take it that you were judging me at all as a matter of fact I appreciated your input as I have with all of the comments. It's truly helpful to see how various individuals would position themselves in this type of scenario. In any regard, Im very sorry to hear about the loss of your father recently. I am so very close to mine and have been since I was a child. Just another reason this situation hurts as it does. I lost my mother a few years ago and she and I were also very very close, a great woman!!
My sister and I and her husband are indeed going to seek the opinion of another Attorney. Not only because I really don't trust the current one, but as you indicated, I need to protect myself and get some more information that may be helpful prior to our meeting in a couple weeks.
I'm also not a very religious individual but I too pray that this situation ends on a positive note!! What that note is, only time will tell. I'll make sure to share the outcome upon my return after Fathers Day. I hope that you just take time on FD and reflect on what a great father you had!! I know you think about him often, but that day is extra special! Sometimes memories help with the pain. This is what I try to do every Mothers Day is to remember the great times I had with her .
Thank you again for your input
T
Please try to speak to another attorney with just you, your sister, and possibly your Uncle, to be sure you are protected. I know your Dad is obviously not concerned, but they (as in the Court system) won't care about that. Please take whatever steps you can to protect yourself & your sister. I see you are trying to do this with love, make sure your Dad is okay (and he wants to protect your brother). Isn't it crazy how our parents enable us when they shouldn't? I had a problem with money, and declared bankruptcy 5 years ago. Ironic that I am now the one in charge of the finances. But my mother didn't trust my brother (rightly so). Because of that and health issues, I am going to name the back-up trustee as my co-trustee because I suspect my brother won't stop. It's so sad. And I know this won't end until my Mom passes. To say my family is toxic is an understatement.
My Dad (who died in 2011) was the buffer AND the glue. I cry almost daily because we lost him in December, and by February, it was obvious to me that something was wrong with my Mom. I had to fight tooth and nail to get her seen (and she wasn't very willing). My brother only sees her for one purpose: money. But now that he has assaulted me, the attorney said I can bar him from the house (but if my Mom wants to see him, I will not stop that), but there will always be a third-party present. What a mess we both have on our hands, huh?
Good luck. I'm not a religious person, but I pray that you and your sister stay safe from your brother's crime. Take care of yourself. I know it is very stressful. I envy you that you get to celebrate Father's Day with your Dad. My Dad's birthday & mine fall close to that date, and I miss celebrating our birthdate together. But I was so lucky. My Dad lived to be 80 (though he had kidney disease for 40 years).
❤
Thank you again for your input.
First to Debralee, I rally don't realize since I've been in the position what it would feel like to have to be faced with a decision like that if it were my son. I do know their are situations I would never tolerate if my son did other crimes, murder, child abuse , physical abuse etc. this however although very very serious, is very difficult for a parent I would imagine. I can't speak for my father and make a good evaluation until I get down there but my guess is that his mindset is that it's money that can be paid back and then how do we prevent this from ever happening again. Is it right???
To Alwaysmyduty: I thank you for your kind words but honestly my sister and I don't have time to feel sorry for ourselves. Our goal is to get down there, give our input and assure that this never happens to our father again!!! It's just that simple. The relationship between my brother and I may never be the same not just because I've helped him financially not only with this recent trip but with many other things, it's more that he could do this to his own Father !!!! It does bother me deeply that because this has happened in the past the logical solution would be to lock his ass up. The entire family realizes that his personality would result in him committing suited if ever faced with that option . That too may be weighing on my dads decision. At the very least if we cannot force him to seek professional counseling, I know I shall have no further relationship with him!!
Thank you again for your input!
He certainly deserves to go to jail and to live on bread and water. However, if he will still be living in the house with your father and caring for him, you don't want him to be feeling an extreme financial burden. A burden, yes. Make sure it's a repayment he can live with so he can't use it as an excuse to do more bad stuff.
No one has mentioned the sister-in-law. What does she think? Is she your ally, or part of the problem?
I also think your brother is awful. He took advantage of his father AND his siblings. I don't see how he could go on that trip to Paris, courtesy of his sibs, and not feel any shame. That is disgusting to me. Your dad should feel embarrassment for him and I'll bet he indeed does.
If I may take a moment to clarify a few points, it may help to better understand my position on this mess.
First off, I do not disagree with the points you are making. While I am indeed my fathers acting DPOA it should be understood that he is still considered by the courts, medical arena, and State to be of sound mind. As a result, although this situation was first discovered by my Father and his brother while my sister, I and my brother were traveling abroad, it was not until we returned that my sister and I discovered on our own that my brother was in fact doing this. There had been signs while on vacation that our brother was using a CC to purchase items, and we knew he shouldn't of had any cc's because we are familiar with his financial situation. It was I and my sister who paid for my brothers trip because we wanted to thank him for taking care of our father and to give him a little break. My Dads brother decided to watch him for a few weeks while we left for Paris. It was during this time that he and my father discovered my brothers actions. My sister and I were not privvy to this, nor was my brother. When we returned from Paris, this is when my sister and I decided to run a credit report on my father to see if there was anything suspicious taking place. Again, we had no idea now that my father and uncle already discovered this. Once we ran the report on my father, we noticed that 5 CC had been opened in his name. At that time, my sister, her husband and I collectively decided to call my brother out on this. When we did, he confessed to everything. At that time we then agreed to make plans to go to Dallas and bring this to our Fathers attention. Now in the meantime, my Father and Uncle disclosed their findings to my brother. He confessed everything to my father and uncle. Once my father contacted my sister and I to inform us of this, it was then when we told him that we also had found out. Luckily I had all the emails going back and forth to my sister discussing our discoveries and our plan of how we were going to fly to Dallas and fill my dad in. Without these, their may have been some more doubt in my dads mind as to whether or not we were part of this or actually knew about this for months prior.
So, now everything is out in the open. Keep in mind, my father can still make decisions on his own . He is not medically incompetent. He and my uncle took my brother to the attorney who drew up the original documents of my fathers Estate. It was then that the attorney discussed exactly what you are touching on. All of us are quite aware that this is INDEED Elderly Financial Abuse and is a felony. You must remember though, it is Not my position or authority to press charges. The attorney asked my father if he wanted to press charges and he adamantly told the attorney that as long as he has a breath in his body he will not put any of his children behind bars unless the crime was much more serious. My sister and I can disagree with this until we are blue in the face but it is his decision to make this call. To touch on another point you made, I would have no problem contacting the authorities if In fact my father was incompetent and could not make decisions on his own.
So I'm not sure if this clarifies things, allow me to also say it will indeed be my position to explain in front of the entire family as well as the attorney why I do not feel as though my brother and his wife should continue to be my fathers care givers. Again, you must realize that even though the Attorney, my sister , her husband and everyone else may agree with me, it is still my fathers decision. Is it the right decision? No, but neither I or anyone else can force him into doing something he does not wish to do unless someone within the medical arena or State can find him incompetent . Until then, it is my position as well as my sisters to do everything in our power to assure that this does not occur again and that his remaining years are comfortable one's. I touched on it earlier in some previous posts, even though our brother has an illness of and an addiction when it comes to money, he has done this to both of my parents in the past, not on the same magnitude as this one, but his illness is money related. Although it is indeed very serious, he and his wife have taken wonderful care of my father aside from this. I'm talking about taking him to every doctor appointment, taking him to PT 3 times a weeks, preparing his meals 3 times a day, helping him with his hygiene when needed, everything that a caregiver is required to do, they do flawlessly. The issue is his addiction to abusing money. Again, please understand I am not justifying his actions, I am not trying to sweep this under the rug, I am only stating the facts. As I've indicated, even though his caregiving skills are very good, I shall still take the position that things should be modified in this arena.
Thank you
I am actually the Caregiver for my Mom, and I have a brother who is a mooch, and I believe a thief. Last month, i looked at his email. He found out and assaulted me. Then I filed a Temporary Restraining Order because I am (have been) afraid of him. He has called Adult Protective Services twice with false claims. I just hired a new attorney and am going to be a "co-trustee" with a friend of my mother's so my brother can't continue his vindictive B.S. (I have some health issues & he could try to have me taken off because of that). But if I had any proof, I'd turn him in in a second.
I know you don't want your brother going to jail, but there should be a trustee who is not a family member. You should also get everything in writing, and force your brother to go to counseling and an addiction recovery program (if that is a problem). But don't be an enabler. You are not helping your brother in the long-run covering his misdeeds (which is probably the reason the attorney wants all siblings off the POA). MAKE SURE EVERYTHING IS WRITTEN DOWN and NOTARIZED. If your brother does this again, since you knew about this, you could get in a lot of trouble. You really should talk to a criminal defense attorney. I worked in the legal environment for 20 years. Believe me when I tell you the attorney is doing this for his client. It isn't personal. And once you meet with him, I'm sure you will understand. If you don't like him or agree, meet with another attorney. But your brother needs to no longer be his caregiver. It's too high risk for your father, and your brother.
1. How can we prevent this from occurring again
2. Based on the findings on my brothers actions and his wife having to know he was doing this, do we feel he should continue to be the care giver?
Although he did indeed steal from his father, we know he and his wife have been excellent care givers and my father agrees to this. This all began a year ago when we found out my father could no longer live on his own. I was willing to take him with me but he cannot breath very good in Colorado due to the altitude, my sister agreed to take him but she is experiencing heart issues and her and her husband own a multi level home and unfortunately it is not conducive to my father's needs. So the my brother and his wife were more that happy to take him in Dallas. As a result, my father even bought a new house for them which is a very nice place with a pool and its a ranch style so no steps for my father to deal with. This was part of my brother inheritance. My father said if you guys don't mind doing this for me, I'll give you and early inheritance.
3. Why did the attorney elect to change the names?
My sister and I are completely confused and a little hurt. I'm trying to figure out if my father feels as though I didn't do my job and I should have caught my brother before he did this??? While my sister is completely stumped as to why he wants to remove her altogether?? So this is a critical one to clarify. I hope and pray the actions of my brother who has a illness, does break up the family as a result of his inappropriate actions !!!
4. How does he and his wife pay this back in a timely manner.
He does indeed get a little salary for his care giving services. He also has a little food business that he does from the house. His wife works full time. It will be my suggestion to remove his salary for care giving and garnish her wages until the debt is paid off. Let's remember they have no house payment!
5 Lastly and very important. Can my sister and I along with the attorney convince my father to make his son seek counseling for this addiction? Since this is not the first time he has done this, we feel it is critical that he along with his wife who obviously is the enabler here get help and get it fast!!!
Thank you again for all your input. It truly helps me to open my eyes to other questions and ideas to present to the family and attorney when we all meet in person!!!