When is enough enough with narcissistic parents?

All my life i've felt like an object...anyone else? I still do and feel like i have no life...no right to be happy...I feel shame guilt and anger most of the time...rarely any joy...I am a Christian and knowing I can talk to God about it is so helpful but that doesn't change the fact that I'm depressed and DO NOT TRUST MY OWN MOTHER! Does anyone else feel that way? So many times I feel like i'm crazy for seeing her faults and behavior toward me...I am confused that sometimes she can be loving and then suddenly switch into a demanding, condemning person...

I guess more reading/research is necessary to get to the point where I dont take it personally anymore...and accept her as having a disorder because of neglect/abuse in her childhood..

It's difficult, isn't it, to focus on her needs when that's all i've done my whole life...what do all of you think?

thanks for listening...I feel so crazy and alone...

Does anyone not even share about themselves with your mother while taking care of her because you don't think she even cares?

Smitty from a very young age you learn to never share any part of your life or accept any offering as your nose will be rubbed in it and it will be held over your head for the rest of your life.

~~That "other mother" who was sweet, kind, caring, loving, understanding, and absolutely a dream to be around. The one with warm loving arms and calming words. The one that was never real in the first place. The only place this other mother lives is in my head.~~

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Sandwich - this is so well said. My "head mother" is like the imaginary friend - always there with a kind word and a loving shoulder to cry on. The woman who gave birth to me and was physically present when I was a child is the same one who will tell me that she resents (insert my helpful behavior) and speaks to me as though she sacrificed her whole life to raise me and for that I owe her my deepest gratitude. The "real" mother tells me when I'm upset about something and in tears that she is too old to listen to all this crying and nonsense.

Oh it seems so many of us have the same umbilical cord. It's as tough as a thick rope wrapped in strapping tape to cut through. It's been three weeks since I last saw darling mom. Not a word from her since I told her she had to decide if she wants me around, and if that decision is yes, it will be with boundaries. Every day gets easier, so those of you who are making that decision, be encouraged.

Smitty - there is no room in a npd mother's life for caring about you or your life- or anyone else for that matter. You are in the right area - we are all unfortunately in the same dysfunctional boat - but we by some miracle found each other to support, share ideas and hopefully have some kind of laugh at some point. Like Emjo and her moms "sex glands" LOL!

So - lots to cover today - I should be working...but just had another incident. I sure like Sandwich's "NO" rules! Comes in handy. Anyone see that movie with Julia Roberts where she tells her mother she isn't in charge anymore? Forgot the name - but need to see it.

So - I sent mom flowers for yesterday - thinking that may soften a little. Well - they were droopy apparently (of course) and I just got a call from the facility that she had another run in with a resident there - a woman was in tears for standing up for a sweet man with dementia who mom was terrorizing. He apparently dropped an apple and picked it up to eat - first she said he didn't belong in that section and he shouldn't eat that crappy apple. She again has been going back to the dining room telling everyone that the food is crap and yelled at the cook because she didn't like the dessert. Some of the residents are resentful that she gets special treatment. They came up with a plan to move her for a week (time out for 80 year olds) into the dementia unit to see what it is like - as that is where they will put her if she doesn't stop. Asked me to call her first and tell her. she of course turned the whole story around - said the nice woman hit her and yelled at her. As I tried to talk to her - she kept talking over me saying I wasn't listening - blah blah blah. Ended up saying I hate her - and she hates me and never come see her again and hung up the phone.

So - this on the tail of yesterdays nice family BBQ where my dil - who I love dearly - said - don't you guys feel a little guilty staying in her house and not seeing her. She of course has wonderful parents and couldn't possible understand - and has never seen my mother rage. We explained some of this stuff - but you just can't explain it all can you? I of course wasn't upset - I love this about my dil - straightforward and clear about things. she kind of got it - but then this happened. I kinda of want to call and say - and this happened - and I am on this forum, and I am in counseling - but then I just sound defensive. Damned if I do - damned if I don't. I really don't know how any of you LIVE with your mothers and care for them - you are saints!

So - since mom has already had a stroke - now she is going in tomorrow for a CT scan looking for cancer - she says of course - DO you CARE??? Then she says it to the facility manager - then threatens to kill herself. I assured her that she likes herself too much for that - she says that to me all the time.

So - Happy Monday all.....

to clarify -I didn't tell my mother I hate her - she said I hate her...just re-read that!

I've had ENOUGH. This is a long post so I apologize in advance.
My mother has exhibited classic narcissistic behavior since I was a child. I did not recognize them as a child, but I did recognize that how my mother interacted with me and treated me was not like my friends mothers. Of course no one is perfect, but as a child I sensed that how my mother would not allow me to grow up was not normal.

After reading several responses to this post on "Enough", I've come to the realization that I am not the person that can care for my mother. No matter what I do, it will not be good enough unless it's following her "map of perfection" to the "t".

How my narcissistic mother has treated and treats me is not normal or healthy. People look at her with dismay when she talks about my brother and I like we are children and not middle aged adults. I realize that she has done this her entire life, and she is not going to change at 79 years old. Several of the stories of others raised by a narcissistic parent mirror how my mother is. I always thought I was alone. I was aware of my mother's friends comments on my mother stifling me as a child growing up, and hoped and prayed she would listen to them, but this did not happen.

It's sad looking back, how she crippled me with her narcissistic ways: It was all about her and what she wanted. Her way or the highway, for my entire life. I was never allowed to dress myself, style my own hair, get a drivers license, only participate in activities that she wanted me to, was not encouraged to be independent and was not allowed to venture out even in high school, etc. I had to beg my mother to teach me how to drive. She took me once as a teen. I had to beg for her to take me to get my drivers license when I was about to head hundreds of miles away for college-- she told me that I did not need a driver's license. I told her that I would need a form if ID since I was going away to college, and she STILL did not want me to get a drivers license. WHO DOES THIS??????

After multiple hospital stays, a team of specialist and doctors at her medical practice have all conveyed that she has dementia (almost 2 years ago) and needs someone in her home to make sure she is safe, she STILL says I have told the doctors to tell her this.
I know you can't make sense from a persons behavior with dementia, but I have tried to make sense of this irrational behavior. I now know that this is fruitless. Her sister (also a narcissist suffering from dementia) supports her and validates her.
How can an educated person think a team of doctors and experts are lying and that her daughter that gave up her life to become her 24/7 caregiver is lying? I feel as if as long as her sister tells her not to listen to the doctors or my brother and I, that we will never be able to provide palliative care for her in her home.
Her narcissistic personality coupled with her dementia is making this impossible for me to continue to be her caregiver.
The problem is, she is not an invalid but she has fallen, been found unconscious at home and at a lunch with friends, has had multiple TIA's, needs constant reminders to take her meds, is a high stroke risk and refuses to adhere to doctors diet and lifestyle advice to help protect her from having a massive stroke. She is very clever and masks her cognitive decline therefore those that don't know her or are not her doctors say "she seems just fine when I talk to her".
A core group of her friends were at lunch with her when she became unconscious and unresponsive at a luncheon--and my mother became combative and refused the paramedics advice that she be transported to a hospital. These friends now see what my brother have been trying to relay to them about our mother, however, they say "well we know how strong of a personality your mother is.....", and as a result, they just no longer call.
I am working on an "escape route" because the current situation is taking it's toll on me mentally and physically.
Tonight was particularly stressful when I heard her tell her sister that her doctor wanted her to return to her neurologist and psychologist and my mother told her sister that I was the one that needed to see these doctors because she was fine and does not need anyone to take care of her. My mother's sister agreed that she should not return to see her neurologist or go to a psychologist.
I am beginning to think that as long as ONE person tells my mother that she does not need to see expert physicians, that she does not need to.
I am waiting for the inevitable catastrophe to happen for my bother and I to be able to do what is necessary. My mother refuses to give us POA and does not trust me or my brother. She did trust us and wanted us to have POA before she was formally diagnosed with dementia, but that ship has sailed. Her sister does not trust her son or daughter and has told my mother not to give us POA.
My mother's doctors care manager told us that we need to get my mother declared incompetent and that her medical records support this. This care manager also told us based on her conversations with my mother and her medical history that this is the only course we have in order to get our lives back since our mother will not allow outside caregivers in her home.
The las time my brother took my mother to the doctor, his nurse gave him a folder on POA, etc. because my mother insists that nothing is wrong with her, that her doctors are wrong and that I am the one that has told everyone that she is sick.
I have had enough.

@Sandwich42 hit the nail on the head with this:
"Nothing has ever been or ever will be good enough for a narcissist. Stop chasing that fox because the hunt never ends."
I can say from my personal experience, this is true.

All above posts are correct. The person can have the best of everything and still complain to the end of time. My Mother is like this and my Father hates you more and more with any help you give him. There is no winning no matter what you do.
ONLY losing. Time to give up but eaiser said than done. I know.

New2dementia: you've got a really rough situation. It sounds like, with the recommendation and support of her medical team, you can get the ball rolling on having her declared incompetent. It's so terribly sad (and lately for me, enraging), to be in such a no win situation, with your mother never willing or able to appreciate you. Hugs, let us know how the whole process goes, ok?

New2Dementia - I feel for you, I really do! I was 18 had my license bought my own car, paid my own insurance had a good job but my mother decided that I could not drive so she took my car for 3 years and drove me back and forth to work until I was 21! When I complained all h**l broke loose! My Dad wrecked his truck, by hitting a cow and got a job in Austin, while we were in Houston. So my Mom said she had to have my car again bec she was not going to be stranded! So I finally got it back at 22 thanks to my brother! Was 26 had a 12 curfew, wanted to get married at 26 was forbidden made me put my wedding off for a year, told me when I got pregnant not congrats just pray for a girl, when it was a boy said well now you will be totally screwed and then 3 more boys later everytime pray for a girl and then was pissed when it was a boy! I could go on and on, but I know alot of people like these post to be shorter...its so hard sometimes when all the words come tumbling out. Anyway in my first session with my therapist she made me realize that I was put on the earth for a purpose and that I am not responisble for my moms life and just bec I am a girl I deserve a life too. My Mom is 84 I tried yesterday to get her into a assisted living, she refuses to go and my POA doesn't hold up, so now my therapist said see her only once a week instead of 4 to 5 and make her pay for outside help. She is trying to play the guilt card with me, but I am standing strong for the first time and it feels really good!!! Hugs!!!!!!!!!

New2Dementia - looloo is right - you have the medical team in agreement that your mother can't take care of herself - you can get the POA from that. You will need at least 2 different doctors letters stating that. I am fortunate with the fact that my father had made me the POA years ago - and it was never changed - I think it is from 1987! That with my letters from the doctors - I was able to get her placed, get the finances in order and with my name with the trust on it and just generally take care of what is needed. Fun? Nope - not even a little bit. But - at least your mother can be cared for and she wont be out spending her money foolishly. A friend of mines mother is doing just that - has gone through $20,000 on just clothes (I hinted I was the same size - as she always dressed cute! - evil laugh). Also - in looking for a place - be really careful about making sure they can deal with the narcissism - have to have at least one strong personality there that can take care of that - Where my mom is - they are all a little too nice - so I have really had to be the bad guy - which had take our relationship to a new level of low. That along with my finally going to counseling (which I highly recommend) and saying NO firmly has turned her into a monster, unfortunately. The rage. The only thing keeping my mom calm - is there are about 4 girls that work there that somehow have my mom in the palm of their hands! They are sweet to her and give her the attention she needs to keep her calm. If any of them cross her - that's it - they are out. So - they do handle her nicely - and as long as I stay away and buy her the junk she wants - it usually stays ok.

It is a hard spot you are in - get a good lawyer to give you advise on elder care and contact a CPA to help you with the money part - that all should be paid for by mom's money - not yours or your brother.

Hugs to you - and my thoughts are with you!!

BTW - these posts need to be long - we have not had a chance to speak for ourselves probably our whole lives! It feels good to get out these toxic stories and share them - as we all understand. Lets let all the junk out of the bag so we can be healthy!

This one thread has been life changing for me. While I knew dad was a narc, I wasn't sure what mom was. Now that he's gone, and I've read this site, I've finally figured it out. The post about pampering at the start of this thread has opened so many doors in my memory and connected all the dots. I see how she got to this point.

And now I see through the behavior. It does make it hard to be in the same room with her right now, but since my BIL and sister kicked me off the care-giving team, I guess I don't have to worry about that for a bit until everyone cools down.

My parents were all about each other. Totally focused on each other. Begged family and friends for money and then spent it, not on their 6 kids or the house that was foreclosed or the business they were supposed to be running, but on each other and trips and "missions" and "calls from God" and who knows what else. And yet, mom is STILL able to get money from people. She's got her hooks in my sister who's pulling my BIL's chain and now they are committing to covering mom's expenses until her government benefits kick in. (And also, my parents refused to pay taxes and were audited - and now she's on government assistance. Hypocrites, too.) My sister has 2 kids, one income, is trying to buy a house. But sure, she'll subsidize mom's lifestyle.

Yes the posts have to be long ... this is a complicated experience.

And I purposely lower case mom and dad.

New2dementia, it rings true for all of us i think...you can never win, no matter how hard you try...that's how i feel anyway.

Growing up, I had the same experience as you Sandwich42...she controlled what i did, and was overprotective...it got to the point that i was afraid to grow up because she taught me to fear the outside world. She always thought people were looking into our kitchen window all the time...so paranoid! She took everything people said personally and of course, dumped it on me, as if I were her counselor, a child, d**n it!!!

She taught me to be just like her...she even spoke in 2nd person...She would express her opinions, feelings using 'you statements. No wonder I was brainwashed...Do you know how brainwrecking that is to a child? She told me how to think and feel...'you shouldn't think that way,,,'you shouldn't feel that way'

This morning, I got a call from the care agency nurse who told me in order for the aides to administer her pain creme (has narcotics in it), she has to manage all her meds too...,mom has been setting up her meds for years. When I told her the nurse is going to set up her meds, she had a cow. I tried to remind her we already agreed to it but she started to have a fit...She is the boss, after all.

I am only living here because the secondhand smoke at my apartment made me sick and it's smoke free here. So far I'm staying sane...thank God!

Today my mom has been very nice to me...Confused! Maybe she's just having a good day and I'm waiting for the shoe to drop...maybe it's because i haven't criticized her...i'm not going to waste time analyzing it...anyone else get confused with this?

There may be a storm brewing "off stage" so to speak.

This past weekend, my Mom was super pleasant and nice and chatty and helpful. A few days later, I get kicked off the caregiving team because Mom had been talking to my sister for over a week, complaining about the person helping me with Mom's arrangements.

Now I know that during those pleasant times between Mom and me, she was talking to others, getting them all up in arms about the present situation. Not trying to be a negative Nelly, but your mom might be nice because some plan of hers is working and about to be sprung.

Smitty, yes, it is very confusing. This has been my mom's MO for years now, even pre-dementia: She tells me how lovely it will be to see me when I go visit. I arrive. She is in a grumpy mood, either being critical of everyone around her, or throwing herself a pity party, or both. I get through the visit (I haven't been anything other than completely calm and polite with her for the last 20 years now), but leave, finally, exhausted and glad to have 'gotten it over with.' Per her request, I call when I arrive back at home, and she tells me what a lovely time she had, thanks so much for coming, and maybe next time I can visit a little sooner, for a little longer? Yeah, RIGHT. I'd find it totally confusing. Now, I just roll my eyes and stop trying to make sense of nonsense.

Oh Smitty, you and cmcwrinkl1’s comments have resurrected a few things that I hadn’t really forgotten, but get confused about so easily. Your Mom spoke in 2nd person. My Mom angrily (actually in a rage) always threatened me and siblings “Never ever use the word I.” In contrarian playful cat-play mode, she inflicted emotional and physical pain, then told us how rotten we were for taking it and/or reacting and/or going numb – loving her final authority of putting us in Coventry for days (slammed her bedroom door and stayed there incommunicado for days while poor Dad cowered and enabled her eating). She smoked continuously, insisting on closed rooms and cars, and punished anyone who objected, big time. Such as her abandoning us for days or threatening to disinherit us. Then lecture us for hours and hours about how we could turn around and be better. We, helpless girls, believed her and didn’t believe other mothers were actually kind and different, because Mom told us they were worse. She told us continuously how the outside world was a condemned pit, and any friends we attempted to make were interpreted by Mom as being evil and coming from evil parents. As an adolescent, I began to see my Mom’s 3-D face, emptied out like a Halloween pumpkin, spinning around. After her death, her face filled the sky for two years. I was very frightened of her. But I cannot shake the “inner conscientiousness” (parentification and hypersensitivity) she trained me in well, because she was Mensa-level intelligent and could twist and turn things so that even our ministers and school counselors bowed to her. It actually has served me very well in the work world. But I’ve had to become quite an actress in life, first of all visualizing what a normal person might react with or do, then try to emulate that. Then pretend, because I truly have a very hard time finding my own feelings. I look to others to show the way. This forum is remarkable. Every word written here speaks to me and strengthens me. I need to post soon about a stubborn lurking fear. I now cognitively understand that guilt is good when it provides awareness to learn. But it is horrific when used manipulatively. Smitty and all, so very glad you landed here. The “When is Enough” question maybe can begin to be answered when you find a different tribal custom. You don’t just accept abuse. You all are a new tribe for me. Thank you.

cmcwrinkl1, you were RIGHT!!

it's like a switch went off inside her and WHAM, she turned into a monster during dinner...I set a boundary that I need to put her in her PJs so I could be done by 6 which we have agreed to for a few years...she complained that I was being 'short' with her and said 'oh, and it's always about you!," Can you believe it? Sure you can. LOL. I was the selfish one who didn't care about her when i've been focusing on her all day? I don't think so.

I asked her how I could have said it better...and she tried to change the subject...HA!!! I told her 'well you should find another daughter'...that felt good...then she said...'take your worries and go downstairs.' I feel sorry for her...she's a powerless miserable ugly person and she has NO idea how she treats me...

I feel like i'm in a living nightmare that never ends...but i'm thankful for the insight I've gained by this thread and other resources. We're all in this together and it's a huge blessing!

I have found my mother is only nice when she wants something or it will benefit her in some way. It is never because she chooses to be. Before all our many blow outs in the last 6 months - I would see her one day and she was nice - go back and I had purchased the wrong cookies, or the store didn't have her precious Almond Joys....uh oh! It can go so wrong in an instant. I do know one thing I had never done is match her glare - not with aa glare but hold eye contact with the foulest look I have ever seen in a another person. The day I did that she instantly went from attack mode to victim - it was quite disconcerting. That is when I knew she was mentally ill. Too bad it took me so long to figure it out...oh well.

Smitty - I had also just said the same thing about my mother...ugly on the inside. How sad for all of us.

Yup, sad1daugher, I know what you mean...it's like they think they're on the throne and if anyone doesn't do their bidding, off to the chopping block they go!

Mom was so mean to me when I brought her a wonderful meal for Easter Sunday, I walked out saying I would not be back for a while, probably would not see her for the next week.

I think it really scared her because she called me and apologized that afternoon! lol The next day when I came back she handed me an ample amount of money plus her credit card to fill my van with gas. I humbly accepted, knowing full well it was not because she cares, she needed to keep me reeled back in.

She doesn't realize how well I have come to know what she is about, and that when she is nice it is to get her way.

It doesn't make me stay though. If she's mean I am outta there! She says oh sure run out! And I say yep! See ya! lol

MizVic... so sad when you feel it's become competitive... But, it may surprise you if your mother should treat you better as time goes by... Some older people get 'softer' as they age... Give it a chance, because she is your mother... just a thought.

It's taken me a lifetime to learn that mom is nice when she is trying to get something and no one is asking anything of her. Nice is a red flag. It reels you in. Once you make it clear you need her or want her to do something and she doesn't want to, the nice stops. Beware of the niceness!

Not sure that will happen due to her Narcissism, Heart2Heart, but the dementia mat change things as it progresses. I have to protect my emotional health, she is mean 90% of the time and goads me into crying often, then calls me a cry baby. I get that pitiful "awwww" comment and it makes me so angry! It's like she really wants to hurt my feelings, something I will never understand.

She gets a new chance to be nice every day. That's the way I have to do this, one day at a time!

Cmc - you are right - nice is a red flag! There is a deadly hook behind it.
Mizvic - you are fortunate that your mother apologized - the only apology I have ever received was when she got us lost driving and I finally said I was going a different way - she said " well, I guess you maybe could have been right." Lol! Almost choked on those words!
Heart2 heart - it would be awesome if "these" older people get nicer as the age...unfortunately with my mothers stroke and now lack of any filter - she is a walking, talking hornets nest. Stings anyone who gets in her way or disagrees with her. Someone on another site told me it is because she is scared - however for the last 2 years I have been spoken to by her worse than anyone in my life. I have been verbally abused - called every name in the book, hit and hung up on. Told she hate me last time. Sorry - just not going to take it anymore - I have not seen her since January - and dread the thought of seeing her again. Just because I had the unfortunate luck of having her egg fertilized by my wonderful dad - I am not responsible for her happiness and to be at her beck and call. I am 58 and have a wonderful husband and 4 great kids...they are my family. It's sad that I don't feel anything for her anymore - just pity.

She is in her own h**l - and honestly - she put herself there. She tormented my dad for at least 30 years, abused him verbally and physically when he had Parkinson's - and withdrew treatment when he was dying - out him in the worst rest home in the county - even tho he could afford the best - saying " they are nice to me"! His care was horrible and he died alone. My daughter will never forgive her for that. No one sees her - her very few friends are tired of her constant complaining - it is awful - but no one wants to go. She created this hell and is fighting everyone now. I can't imagine what it is like in her brain...

Whew- sorry - guess I needed to get rid of that toxic waste!

Sad1daughter,

that's alot of abuse to take...good for you to get out of that environment and live your life...

my mom is sugary nice because she wants an audience telling her how sweet she is...at the transitiional care unit, everyone thought she was so sweet, it killed me every time I heard it...it made me SO angry knowing she is that way to the outside world but not to her own family (me).

cmcwrinkle1, I guess I've learned not to ask for much because i know she could care less, although when I mention I need glasses and can't afford them, she offers to help out...On my birthday a week ago, she gave me $200 cash and picked out a bday card on her own...but never gave it to me...last night, I finally pulled it out of her papers and said i would open it...She said she didn't put it there and I said I didn't either...oh well, she's always right.

Today I feel sad because i am living with her and because of my fibromyalgia I don't feel like going out...so I am called upon to answer the other caregiver's questions and it's all about mom...so I'm going out anyway to save my sanity..

Sure, she says she loves me and i'll never know how much..but i've told her that I've never felt loved by her and it makes her cry.

I

Smitty, when my brothers have told my mom in the past that they didn't feel loved by her, she couldn't understand that. "I don't know why you all don't feel loved. I always felt my mother loved me, even when she was mad at me. I love you all so much." This was the clue to me that finally helped me see she was pampered while we were neglected. She thinks that saying I love you and having happy feelings about us equals love, I guess.

She is incapable of understanding that by not taking care of her children's needs, by letting her oldest daughter (me) babysit all the time, by not buying them basics like clothes and food and beds and keeping them safe, by not taking them places and playing with them, that they never felt loved. Cooking meals, often obviously stressed about it, and punishing them when they fight isn't love. Having her 20 year old sons buy her house and then never do anything to move that obligation off of them, even when she was making a moderate income, is not how you love your children.

So yes, she won't get it. I don't even try to tell her.