My father had 2 TIAs a little over 2 years ago. My mother called me to come out to where they live and help out. She had dementia, depression, and was on some serious medications that made her catatonic half of the day. When Dad had his TIAs, she was scared and called me. I'm his only son. My wife and I moved them closer to us. We had to handle EVERYTHING. The sale of their house, making sure they had their meds, that their banking information was up to date. Had to sell their things and some of their vehicles. We had to pack up their house and move them a thousand miles to be near us. We took half a year off work and lost out on a lot of revenue. After about a year and a half with them living nearby at a retirement home, my mother broke her hip, and had it fixed in surgery, but she passed away 4 months later. Her and my Dad were together 50 years. My Dad is a lifelong alcoholic who is very selfish and inconsiderate. He's a lovable guy, but when he doesn't get his way, he can threaten and be abusive. He's in his early 80s. Immediately after Mom passed, he started meeting other women at his retirement home. Of course, no one in the family really approves of his behavior, but then again, we're all adults and we know he's just trying find a companion. As other elderly family members have done after their spouses passed away. In my Dad's case, he befriended someone who decided to move out of the retirement home and he wants to move in with her. She has more problems than there's room here to write about, and it's unfortunate. My/our family have spoken to him about how he is forgetting things, that he's had multiple episodes where he's wondered off and forgotten what he was doing or where he was going, almost to the point of putting out a silver alert had we not already been tracking his car with his permission. When I've spoken to him about the family's concerns and that there's a reason he's living in a retirement home instead of in his own home, to remind him of everything that's happened that's led up to this, he becomes combative and says that other residents where he lives have told him that he can hire a lawyer and get a restraining order. Of course, I, nor anyone in the family is of any threat to him. We are the ones who found the retirement home at his request and helped him buy furniture and everything he needed to enjoy himself. Now he's becoming confused by the stories of the other residents where he lives and starting to think his own family is against him because they won't do what he wants. It's childish, selfish, and only highlights how much he's out of touch. So, that's pretty much the whole story. We will continue to provide support, of course, because he has no one else, and I'm happy he's found someone to spend time with, but myself and the rest of the family knows that he'll have more episodes and be a danger to himself. I'm curious if anyone else here has done to navigate a situation like this. Currently, the plan is to let him do what he wants, without arguing with him, and sitting back and just being here for him if something bad happens. It feels like waiting for the inevitable. And being helpless to stop it.
If the POA is NOT invoked, no matter that you are the named POA, you don't officially have the power to do anything yet. If the POA IS invoked, your power is to act in the best interest of your father, to work with him where it makes sense, and to make decisions that may be counter to what he wants if his decision is dangerous or negatively impacting to him.
While a person is still considered legally "competent" - yes...they are allowed to continue to make their own choices, no matter how stupid or dangerous they are or who else agrees with them. But once that legal designation of incompetent is made, that is when the POA kicks in, in most cases (unless the POA is written differently).
Alcoholism muddies the waters. What many people do not realize is just how much impact years of excessive drinking has on the body and the brain. Years of alcohol abuse can cause neuropathy, it can cause slowed or dulled cognitive responses, it can cause neurological issues. You layer that on top of dementia - you've got a cocktail for a mess.
My father was a "functioning alcoholic". He also had early stage dementia. One thing he was ADAMANT about was that he did not want to go into any facility that would require him to stop drinking or limit his access to his daily alcohol. This may be part of your father's issue. He likes the idea of moving to a location where he has "full control" of his own life and can do as he pleases and if they decide to stay drunk 24/7 yay him right? (sorry sarcasm font if it isn't clear)
Except...if you really think about it, that's not how real life works. If you live on your own, you HAVE to do certain things. Bills have to be paid, homes have to be cleaned, doctors appointments have to be made and attended, medications have to be picked up and taken on a regular schedule, hygiene has to be executed properly, fire safety and other emergency practices have to be able to be executed safely (remembering to turn the stove off, not running the bathwater over, locking doors, not wandering from the home etc). If you layer alcohol and dementia on top of trying to manage truly independently with no oversight...that's a recipe for disaster.
A lot depends on if your POA is actually invoked. If it is - personally I would get in his way so fast - he can threaten all of the restraining orders he wants lol - but you are only acting in his best interest, because he no longer can. If the POA is NOT invoked, I would do everything in my power to get it invoked asap. Because you are already on a slippery slope with him and it's only going to get worse.
I called his financial company and they wouldn't talk to me. I called him and pleaded with him for over an hour to stop what he was doing.
A pop up came up on his computer with alarms and flashing lights, just like the movie, The Beekeper on Netflix. He called the number and they convinced him to sell all his investments off and put them in the form of a check and send the money to his home. They claimed to be the FBI and they were working with Microsoft to help catch the criminals. My father kept telling me that I was wrong and that I didn't know what I was talking about, that these criminals were going to steal his money. I explained to him that once he sold all his investments, he would be liable for the taxes and that the FBI would never advise anyone to do something like that. He was quiet and listened, and he told his financial company that he needed to stop what he was doing.
And that was the last straw. So I've enacted all the POA powers that I have. I had his primary care state that he is incapacitated so that he doesn't have access to his money anymore. And now, I'm working towards guardianship.
This lady that he has been talking to needs help as well. I am going to take a booklet from the county over to her with phone numbers in it to get help.
Umm...yes.
"And being helpless to stop it".
Umm.. yes again.
The dignity of letting your Father make his own choices: Good, Bad or Terrible VS your perceived duty of care.
'Duty of Care' should be a whole thread! This *concept* a mixture of morals, families obligations, expectations, paperwork & laws.
” dignity “ like the word “ independent “ is thrown around when it’s not true.
At the same time, present are expectations of duty of adult child to deal with their poor decisions at a moments notice to rescue them . To be at the ready to hop on an airplane .
The “ family helps family “ or “ honor your parents wishes “ are excuses these elderly use to SELF ENABLE themselves even when they know they are making a poor choice.
Meanwhile we are told DON’T DARE try stop the foolishness . We must let them have their dignity .
Dealing with this right now. LO does not see that her decisions effect others , nor does she care . She wants her “ dignity “, but also expects to be rescued when it goes wrong . We are trying to tell her we will not swim in her pool of consequences so long as there is no POA . It’s not being understood . This woman has always been difficult , this is not new . And we don’t see her often in person , so it’s difficult to say if she has dementia , or if it’s stubborn denial . Given she’s 87 though ……….
” Dignity”…….. a smoke screen to avoid saying what’s really going on, meanwhile it’s killing the caregivers . Dignity and Duty are now added to my list of words I hate . The list is growing .
Dignity
Independent
Obligation
Guilt
Duty
Expectations
I watched my grandfather just tell it like it was to his father in law , my senile great grandfather ( probably Alzheimer’s ) . Why did it work then but it doesn’t now ? What has changed ??
The first time great grandpa got lost while driving , his son in law told him “ No more driving “ . That was it.
No drama , no calling DMV etc.
I surely do hope I maintain the wisdom to recognize my limitations , and be willing to listen to what my children say . Based on my family’s history I’m assuming I will be going down the dementia road . I’m striving to be like my sweet cooperative grandmother.
anyway , looking things up and looking at all the legal possibilities and roles is a wise move.
I too, am waiting for “something “ to happen with my dad , I also just don’t know exactly what that is ….its like a ticking time bomb is ticking , but what happens after the explosion is unclear at this time .
ok, so seems you never invoked the POA for you, and you are inclined now to NOT take POA it seems. Sounds like that may well be a wise decision, for now . As you mention, there are other families who can help for now .
He was a prolific driver. And I have no proof, but I'm certain he was drinking, taking medications, and driving people around. That was a cringey situation. And it was inevitable, that he was going to crash his car, so all we could do was wait. And sure enough, he crashed it. And it could have been avoided, by both parties, so he got lucky, once again. Insurance totaled and paid for his car, he pocketed the money, and decided to give up driving. But there is a theme here.
He wants to do what makes him happy, but he doesn't know his limits or what he can and can't do. I like to think of a Clint Eastwood quote from one of his movies, "Man has got to know his limitations".
Also, he is in his 80s. He does not think, act, or react, like those of us decades younger than he is, and therefor, he does not consider the same things I do, nor is he able to even stay awake for any length of time.
At this point, he is basically only a problem for himself. He doesn't drive. His affairs are in order and monitored. He's happy where he lives. He was frustrated by this lady he met, moving away, and he wanted to follow her, so we spoke about it. I, of course, didn't approve, but the response from him was predictable. He was angry, defiant, and in his heart, he believes he's helping her making me his adversary.
I'm not taking that role. So, for now, I'm not involved. Until I get a call that something is wrong, or he hasn't pushed the button in his room, or one of the other things I've mentioned here, then my life goes on. Worst case scenario, he does something REALLY stupid and ends up bedbound or worse, he has insurance for that, and if he was busted out of money or something, we have state run facilities here for him to live out the rest of his life.
The bottom line is that it's just not worth the hassle to keep a life long alcoholic with early dementia or Alzheimers from doing whatever stupid or crazy things he wants to do, so long as it doesn't hurt others, and so far, he hasn't hurt anyone.
But, I will offer no assistance when it comes to him moving, or any help to her for any reason. I won't be a part of something where I could be accused of elder abuse. I have a career, a family, and a life. Anything I do, will be backed by legal reasons and to protect me AND him.
He's no longer capable of making reasoned decisions about his care or his future.
Your father should be given a spending allowance, but he should no longer have access to the money that has been put aside for his future care.
You have POA for this exact scenario, so now is the time to make use of it.
Just because your father is making decisions, it doesn't mean that he is capable of thinking ahead or of calculating risks, due to his cognitive decline. Therefore his decisions are faulty at best, dangerous at their worst.
He is going to hate you, rail at you, but he will be kept safe.
There may come a day when he is deemed incompetent, and I hope that day never comes. But if and when it does, I'll revisit this decision.
My father has spoken about lawyers and lawsuits against anyone who stands in his way my whole life. Never has be actually followed through, but it's an indication of how much he wants to pursue what he wants.
A POA can be revoked. He presently can't be deemed incompetent. Therefor, if I invoke the POA, even with his dementia or Alzheimers diagnosis, he won't be found incompetent and he may actually hire a lawyer.
This would be a complication for everyone. I'm collecting more information, but choosing to leave him to his own devices. Yes I wanted to be of help, but there's other family members who can help him, if he so chooses. He'll have to see for himself how much he was used my/ our help. And how much he will need it again. In the meantime, I will do nothing. He is fine, until he's not. And only then, will I decide whether or not to involve myself again.
The threat of a restraining order against you is a very serious statement.
The results (if it's just talk) will ruin your reputation, credibility, and create an adversarial relationship that prevents you from helping him.
The results (if your father actually files a restraining order against you) would make your POA perhaps null and void legally.
Get the advice of an attorney that can protect you.
Always have a credible witness when you visit. (One that is not a family member).
Visit less, much less. When he calls you for help, you can say that you will need to check with your lawyer.
In the meantime, understand that his brain is broken, but that does not give him the right to ruin you or take you down with him.
It is already an adversarial position you are trying very hard to navigate.
That is why I suggest you protect yourself now.
It is understandable that adult children of alcoholics find it difficult to protect themselves from harm caused by the toxic relationship.
My father isn't and will never hire a lawyer to go after his son.
I don't need a lawyer. Hardly anyone ever really needs a lawyer. Just go to legalzoom and download whatever you need and do some basic research.
I don't need to be protected from him. He is just an unfortunate infection away from wandering off.
Hopefully it never happens.
know it’s painful and it’s 10x worse than raising a teenager. With a teenager at least you know you are the “in control adult” even if your teen doesn’t lol with a parent it’s a weird, scary & uncomfortable situation to be the one in charge.
it sounds like your dad is at the same or similar stage where my dad is - legally capable enough to make decisions but not enough to understand how bad those decisions are. Unfortunately until they cross the point of not being legally capable, all we can do is sit back and wrap ourselves in bubble wrap hoping that their decisions and actions hurt us minimally.
try, it’s not easy, but try to remind yourself that he is like a teenager yet somewhat with the mental & in someways physical capacity of a toddler. Does that help change the situation? No. But it will help you deal with the “why is he doing this, he knows it hurts?” & “I don’t understand how he cannot understand” type questions that will wear you down if you don’t stop them in their tracks.
Feeling helpless is one of the worst feelings in the world. Adding self inflicted pain of questioning why he is making you feel helpless & why he is not doing anything to prevent it will make your helplessness excruciating.
The simple answer- and I forget it ALL THE TIME so don’t feel bad or that it’s not the case in your situation, it is. Even if it’s subconscious, it’s happening- anyway, the simple answer is that he cannot help himself. His brain is probably whatever the opposite of Swiss cheese looks like- instead of holes everywhere, there are dead spots in his brain. My guess is most of them are in his frontal lobes. (Just like my dad’s after having at least 10 TIA’s over the last 14 years- 10 that I know about because he won’t tell me anymore when he thinks he’s having one and he doesn’t even try pick up the phone and call when he knows he’s having one (he has a one button push phone that calls me directly)
(Not being silly, I am being serious) Repeat after me - his brain is broken. He is not doing this on purpose. This is not my fault nor is there anything I can do about it because I am not in control at the moment.
Have that written on a piece of paper on my bathroom mirror and behind a cabinet door at his house that he can’t reach and see. I read it 3 times when he has pushed me to the point of almost breaking.
I'm talking to his doctor, talking to his assisted living coordinator, because he's in IL now, until tries to move. Checking with APS about the unsafe living situation he is putting himself in, and talking to Al-Anon.
I learned a long time ago that sometimes, he wants a confrontation, and he knows what to say to get it. So, I take a breath and just tell myself, "he's full of bull and no one is listening to him", because it's true. And unfortunately, it's cost him a great deal in his lifetime.
The swiss cheese comparison is right on. He's had a had CT and he's lost 25% of his brain mass.
He's been diagnosed with Alzheimers in addition to his multiple TIAs and the list goes on and on. Our whole family is feeling for me as my wife and I are his caregivers. His younger brother has told me that he's lucky to have me.
Lately, dealing with him, is like navigating a mine field. You never know what's going to set him off or what he'll react to. Step with caution.
One thing for sure is that any criticism of any of his choices is met with instant pushback and borderline anger.
But he's in his 80s, he does sleep a lot, he's un steady on his feet, has fallen multiple times, and has memory loss. He's no longer driving. He's pretty much harmless. He just needs someone to guide him in a better direction.
But what's the best direction? That's what I'm trying to figure out.
Thank you
When he later wants help, say sorry dad, I cant
Read your PoA document to see what legally "activates" your decision-making authority. Is it 1 medical diagnosis of incapacity? Or 2? You need to get this done, even if it means another family member (who is on his "good" side) tricks him into going to the doctor and getting a cognitive/memory test. Once this is in his records, then ask his physician to express his sufficient incapacity in letter form on their clinic stationary and to send you the pdf. This is now the beginning of your authority, whether your Dad agrees with your decisions or not. You are then going to be making decisions *in his best interests* which means AL is the solution, not burdening some poor woman with PD to be his doormat and servant. If I were this woman's family I'd be outraged at this arrangement...
Him being a very bad, lifelong and still active alcoholic: has he ever been assessed for "wet brain" (aka Wernicke-Besickoff dementia)? This is a dementia that is specific to alcoholics because it prevents them from absorbing vitamins which causes the cognitive impairment. You should consider having a conversation about this with his physician. Make sure to present your PoA paperwork to any medical staff of his so they have it in his files.
The caregiving/management arrangement cannot be onerous to you. You can make all kinds of beneficial plans for your Dad but he can still physically resist going to AL or MC. There is no solution to this other than a creative therapeutic fib strategy, which you can arrange with the facility. Your father doesn't need to agree to the facility, to pay for it, etc. You make this decision on his behalf because this is what will keep him safe, housed, fed and medically overseen. Of course he will hate all of it and you, too. Let him threaten a restraining order. This is just the hot gas nonsense of a manipulative drunk. You know that.
Your other option -- if you just don't want to deal with him (and who could blame you) -- is to resign your PoA and allow him to become a ward of a 3rd party court-assigned guardian. They will deal with his resistance, nonsense, belligerance, stupidity, etc. You can visit him and not have to deal with any of the crap. It's up to you.
Have you been to AlAnon meetings? If not, please go to one so you can learn about boundaries with substance abusers. I wish you clarity, courage, strength, wisdom and peace in your heart that there are other solutions for your Dad that do not involve your involvement.
Youre thinking of reporting him to aps, so I would say it is certainly time to invoke poa for dads own good. Also contact this other family. If you don’t have that info tell your dad you need it as an emergency contact.
Your dad is, at his happiest, a womanizing drunk. The safest place to do that is where he is. He goes to this unfamiliar apartment, how exactly is he going to get his alcohol? He is going to be open to every scammer there is.
Doctor's office is saying that I can't make an appointment to speak with her about my Dad without him present for insurance reasons. I'm double checking with the clinic about this, but I thought that is what the POA allowed me to do. I'm beginning to get all of my ducks in a row based on the excellent info here. What a great resource, this site.
Why did you move your parents closer to you if you have no intention of using your POA to keep dad safe? My condolences on the loss of your dear mom. Your only job as POA is to make decisions FOR dad that he's no longer capable of making due to his cognitive decline from Alzheimer's. Dad needs to move into either an Assisted Living facility or a Memory Care Assisted Living if he's an exit risk due to wandering. Memory Care has locked exit doors whereas AL does not. You can place him against his will, if necessary, because you hold POA and dad has AD.
As far as the alcohol abuse goes, drinking to blackout every night will significantly speed up his Alzheimer's and may have caused it to begin with. Most Assisted Living places DO allow booze but no Memory Care Assisted Living places allow it. Please speak to dad's doctor about the best plan of action here, because a cold turkey approach to giving up booze is potentially dangerous.
Wishing you the best of luck with all of this.
I know we're closer to AL now than ever before, so I'll reach out to his medical team and talk to his community managers and see what they say.
Obviously your question has an implied answer within it. I moved them closer because they couldn't care for themselves. They told me as much and wanted help.
I don't have any memory of my father not being drunk. There is also, not enough room here to detail every drunken episode throughout the last 8 decades of his life, but it's involved DUIs, jail, loss of his career, etc. Its a disease. He's a victim. I doubt he'll give up alcohol. He has probably been drinking since he was an early teen. According to him and his old friends' stories. He will at the very least, sip one beer a day until he dies.
Thanks for your input. Talking to his doctors is my next move. In addition to other suggestions in here. All good insight.
1. Is your father suffering from dementia? Has he had a neuro-psych evaluation.
2. Are you POA for your father?
3. You mention he lives in a "retirement home". What is this "home"? Is this ALF? Independent Living?
The answers to these questions are necessary before I could give you any advice. I do wish you the best.
He has a neurologist. There's mention of normal age related cognitive decline in his records as well as a record that saya he has early Alzheimers, but there's not much detail.
I have total POA over everything in his life.
He lives in independent living. He bathes, eats, and toilets just fine.
Do you have POA? Or has Dad given you permission on HIPAA forms to speak with his doctors ? Your father should not be driving anymore , since you feel you have to track him and almost called a silver alert because he forgets where he is going . Try to speak to his doctor . He needs cognitive testing . You could also report to DMV and they could request your father take a driving test . Hopefully , the doctor or DMV will take his driver’s license away .
If you don’t have POA, I understand sitting back and letting the inevitable happen with the exception of driving . Him driving with cognitive issues is putting other innocent drivers and pedestrians at risk . A car is a lethal weapon in your father’s hands. If Dad is still drinking , he could be driving drunk as well . Please address this aspect with his doctor and/or DMV . If you have POA already , disable the car or take it away now so he can not drive . If you don’t have POA , still work on getting the doctor or DMV to take away his license . Once that happens take the car away .
That is exactly what you'll be doing...waiting for the inevitable. And don't worry, the inevitable will definitely come. Probably sooner than later in your dads case especially since he's an alcoholic.
The worst thing you can do for an alcoholic is to enable them in any way, so try and make sure that any thing you may choose to do to "help" him doesn't fall in the enabling category.
And you may want to check out your local Al-Anon meetings that are for family members of alcoholics. They will help put things in perspective for you when you have a loved one who is an alcoholic.
Remember that your dad is a grown adult and he and only he is responsible for his actions. You are not!
Have you talked to these “other residents where he lives who have told him that he can hire a lawyer and get a restraining order”. Or to the senior staff at the ‘retirement home?’ It sounds unlikely to me, unless it is just one person stirring – and if so the chances are that your father is not the first person they have wound up like this. The senior staff may want to know that one or more residents are encouraging others to move out.
I fully understand that you may choose to step back from this situation. However if it is really likely to go wrong, it will probably involve you in even more work than you have already done, in order to sort it out. It may be worth getting it checked in the early stages. Certainly it’s less of a problem with F if you don’t argue with him, but instead get the reality checked out by others who have rights and an interest in things NOT going wrong.
Dad is fond of her and feels like she needs him to help her. I agree she needs help, but why didn't she move into another community like the one she was in? Why an apartment? One of the big draws for my Dad is that she drinks also, of course, and they will sit around in the evening getting drunk. But now that she's moved into an apartment, he wants to continue the relationship and move in.
APS is an idea. I had to call them once because a care center left my mother alone in a room after she was discharged from the hospital from her hip surgery. I had go take a break and go home and get some sleep, and the minute I left, they closed the door to her room and they left her phone and her call button out of reach. She filled her adult diaper, almost fell out of bed calling for help, managed to get her phone and call the last number on her phone, my sister, who called me in a panic. I rushed back up to the care center to find nurses who lied to me and said she was fine. I had to go get a mop and bleach and clean her room myself. This was during Covid, so I understand they were understaffed, but being my mother, I was very enraged that they left her alone and closed the door. So, APS came out. Did an investigation. I don't know what difference it made, except they wouldn't leave her alone anymore. And they wouldn't leave the door closed anymore. Problem solved as far as they were concerned. If 2 adults are living together under their own consent, what's APS going to do? I'll check into it. Thank you
However, if your father goes ahead with this, I would negate all responsibility. If you aren't in a position to stop him, and he's being combative towards you, step away.
You've done your bit, you've tried to help, now you need to put your care and time towards only those things you do have control over.