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Is this going to be the future from now on?
Bedrooms and bathrooms are upstairs, my grandmother is 98 and still wants to spend days downstairs in the living room, she still has full control of her bladder and bowels, but has stopped going upstairs to the bathroom during the day and call me what you like but didnt even figure it out until afew days ago, because shes been sneaking into the kitchen and peeing in cups, just caught her pooing in her hand and putting it in the bin and washing her hands.
it isnt incontinence as she will wait till i pop to the shops or go into the garden.
she had poop all over her hands/fingernails(she cant even see well enough to clean her hands) just pretended that i needed to wash her hands.
how do i confront this behavior or modify it?

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You can't confront her or expect someone with dementia to modify their behaviour, it is up to you to manage it.She's old, she can't handle the stairs so to her this seemed the only solution, you need to provide her a better one. The simplest solution would be to give her a more appropriate place to go, get her a portable commode, tp and wet wipes and set them up in an out of the way corner, set up a screen if you don't have any extra room.
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I totally agree with cwillie. Get a bedside commode and set it up. Going up and down stairs must be a challenging thing for an older person. You should not confront her..just provide an appropriate place downstairs.
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sorry im going allow my grandmother to start going to the bathroom in my living room like ferral dog, she has full control of functions for gods sake and can get up and down the stairs.
this was not the answer i was expecting.
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The fact that she waits until you're gone seems to me that she's not comfortable discussing the issue with you and is trying to meet her needs w/o your involvement. Or it might be a reflection of her dementia. Is she getting any treatment for that?

I agree with others - get a commode for her. That's the kind thing to do instead of inferring her actions are comparable to a feral dog. And respect that she's still a woman, a human being, and is probably going through anguish, confusion and a lot more b/c of her dementia.

However, response after CWillie's and Grammy's posts is shocking, i.e., that "im (not???) going allow my grandmother to start going to the bathroom in my living room like ferral dog, she has full control of functions for gods sake and can get up and down the stairs.
this was not the answer i was expecting."

I honestly had to read this a few times to believe something so unsympathetic was posted. What kind of answer were you expecting? Seriously? What other suggestions would you have expected?

Are you medically qualified to determine full bladder and bowel control? Are you also medically qualified to determine that she can get up and down the stairs? If not, you're making observations, rather than fact based conclusions.

Your profile states that she has dementia. Have you done any research at all on dementia and how it affects someone's personal issues, including toileting issues?

The poor woman is embarrassed; have some sympathy for her. Even consider just buying a privacy screen to hide the commode. Or is it that you don't want to empty the commode? And, BTW, your living room must be quite important to you, which makes me wonder how seriously you're committed to keeping her in your home, and why I make the next suggestion.

You probably won't like this, but I'm writing it anyway. If you have so little sympathy, respect and understanding for your grandmother, perhaps APS should be involved to find a place where she does receive that respect. To compare her to a feral dog is really quite cruel. If you don't want her in your house, at least be humane and find a good memory care facility for her.

I'm still shaking my head in confusion at your callous and cruel attitude toward a basic need.
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In my opinion, the first thing you should do is talk to your grandmother about this behavior and ask her why she doesn't go up to the bathroom. It's possible she's able to make it up the stairs once or twice a day, but finds it too exhausting to do it every time she needs to go. Maybe she's desperately trying to hide her incapacity from you for fear you'll make her move out. If she needs help getting up the stairs, is there someone available to help her? If your grandmother can't use the stairs as often as she needs to, and you're not willing to put a commode downstairs (which was my first thought too), then you need to consider other accommodations for your grandmother. Or confine her to the upstairs, and try to make it as pleasant for her as possible (put a TV or a reading chair in her room, if she doesn't already have them, for example.)
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Uhm, it seems to me a "feral dog" is what you already have. I'm willing to bet you don't want to hear about putting her in disposable incontinence underwear and helping her to clean up after using them either. It's OK, toileting issues are often the straw that breaks a caregiver's back, many are not cut out to providing that level of care. I reiterate, you can't "teach" someone with dementia to change their inappropriate behaviours, you can't bribe or beg or reason. Dementia kills brain cells and eventually effects every bodily function, not just behaviour. Perhaps it is time to consider a higher level of care for grandmother, someplace where there are more accessible facilities and trained caregivers.
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the comment before was perhaps too spikey, you guys need to understand, she not incontinent she has full control of her fuctions.
im sorry but im not willing to go on a downward spiral of indignity.
if i was to do what you guys are suggesting, whats the next abominable behavior to cope with? my mind boggles...
"toileting issues are often the straw that breaks a caregiver's back" i think you are perhaps correct.
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Robin
The women who have responded to your post have been hands on caregivers for years

I am sorry for your poor grandmother and the situation you find yourself in now

Your words are shameful - your grandmother needs care and her needs will only escalate - it is not abominable it is a disease and an awful one at that

Please call your local county agency on aging and have a social worker do a needs assessment - if she qualifies perhaps there is in home care that can help, but if not step up and see she gets the help needed as what will you do when she's bedridden and pees and poops in bed?

You are not in this for the money but for the love of your grandma
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You've got to understand, a "normal" person would not poop into their cupped hands if you put a gun to their heads, it just goes so deeply against our ingrained conditioning. Dementia breaks down all those normal brain connections so that what was formerly unthinkable can seem to them a logical solution. You say she is fully continent and there is no reason she can't use the bathroom, well the reason is that her brain is broken and she has forgotten how. It isn't going to get any better, in fact it will probably get much worse as new problems arise. In the mean time, it sounds as though you have a small house so where are you when grandmother is doing these things? If she has been left alone I suggest it is no longer safe for her, next thing you know she will be burning things on the stove or wandering outside and getting lost. If you are not prepared to be on her like white on rice then it is time to find a better place for her, better sooner than later.
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At least think about getting her a bedside commode. If you can figure out a place for it maybe in the laundry room if it's on her level or even the garage if you have one so that it's not in one of the main rooms.
This to me is so sad.
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Robinhood..:

"but im not willing to go on a downward spiral of indignity.
if i was to do what you guys are suggesting, whats the next abominable behavior to cope with? my mind boggles..."

She's already on a "downward spiral of indignity."

As to the next behavior, why even think of that? Address the existing situation now to prevent a further "downward spiral of indignity."

Are you aware that APS could find you in neglect of her and remove her from your custody, finding a place for her where she's treated with more respect? I'm still curious what kind of responses you expected. The answers are consistent within a general theme, yet they're not what you expected. So what did you expect?

Anyone else see a pattern to the OP's responses? The next one should be the clue.
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Who else is living in the home, so they could protect grandma, and figure out her needs?

The next behavior could be that you will discover she has already smeared the feces on the wall, refrigerator door, or even eaten some when you were not observing her.

If you believe she can ambulate up the stairs to the bathroom without pain, then get a schedule and take her to the bathroom while assisting her. Her brain is broken.

What is your age, how will you be able to manage? I interpret your spikey comment as shock and frustration. You can educate yourself about dementia, and here on agingcare
read up. You can start over to address this serious subject.
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Watch some Teepa Snow videos, Robin. Learn about dementia.

The fact that gma CAN ambulate up and down stairs occasionally does not mean that she can do so in a timely fashion when she needs to defecate or urinate.

And no, she is NOT is control of her bodily functions if she is peeing in cups and pooping in her hands. The bodily function that is broken is her brain. What she is doing makes PERFECT sense to her.
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For a person with demensia it is not just about having control of their bladder. Grandma may feel the urge to go, but not know where the restroom is at that moment or know it is upstairs but not know how to get up there. I know this sounds rediculous but it is how demensia goes. For example, my mom once told me (and this was very early in her demensia journey) that in the morning she was standing in her kitchen and wanted to go out back but she couldn't remember how to get out there. She has French doors that lead from the kitchen to the back yard, her damaged brain just didn't allow her to remember to go to the door, turn the knob, push it open and go out. In their brain, things they have done for years get all jumbled up.

If you are this frustrated already, how will you deal with the challenging behaviors yet to come. Please read more about demensia. Prepare yourself. If not, please seek placement for your grandmother.

My mom is in stage 7. She is double incontinent, so yes, I have to change her every 2-3 hours everyday, poop is almost always involved. She can no longer control her hands and arms, so I have to hand feed her and give her drinks. She also has a delayed swallow so I have to carefully watch her as she eats and drinks to be sure she swallow and prompt her when I need to to get her to swallow. Feeding is a slow process. She just "forgot" how to walk one day about 2 1/2  ago, so I have to do a dead lift to move her from her bed to her wheelchair to her recliner. This also requires me to shift her position every 1-2 hours so she doesn't get bedsores. She can no longer sit up well enough to sit on the shower chair, so we give her bed baths and wash her hair in bed three times a week. Mom will often stay up all night... During the mid stages, she walked a lot...all night. Now she can't walk but she talks all night often yelling out "mommy". On those nights I sleep in a chair beside her bed so I can comfort her as much as I can. Taking care of a person with demensia is not easy. It requires patience, love, and understanding. It requires a lot of learning. It requires changing how you do things and how you live your life. I am blessed with a supportive family and friends to help me on the journey.

I suggest you read and watch videos by Teepa Snow and Naomi Feil, also the book titled the 36 Hour Day is very helpful. Much luck to you and your grandmother. Please know that if you ask a question, we will give the best answer we can from our experience.
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Hi Robinhood. I'm not your judge and jury. I don't think it's unreasonable for you to not have a portable toilet in your living room. I wouldn't either. This care giving job is tough and I know I didn't apply for it . I'mAn only child and my mom has dementia. I have told her siblings who are also seniors. ( h*ll im one) , that I have my limits to how long I will do this. None of them help , basically no one does. I really don't expect it. But didn't want their criticisms if I don't do what they think I should. Long winded here . Sorry. Bottom line. My care giving days end when she can't bathe herself or gets really dependent. I'm not putting diapers on her. Sorry just can't. I'll know when I can't do it anymore. She's my mother. I want the her life to be as good as it can be , but when her needs exceed my abilities and patience , it will be time for her to go to a memory care facility.
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ok now lots of responses,
firstly, im not in this for money, she is in my home, i work from home and am very very successful as it is and i have nothing to gain(i would only an equal share between 5 family).
she already uses a commode which i clean 3 times a day, i cook every meal, make every hot and cold drink, i cut her hair, i cut her nails, all on top of all the normal household duties.
"Who else is living in the home, so they could protect grandma" this is the first post ive put up, i came to this site to share the story and perhaps get some help and support, didnt think that everyone would be so vile and accuse me of some sort of abuse because i asked for opinions on this issue.

thank you Erinm60 i didnt ask for this job, my sister went to australia and my grandmothers daughter in law and 2 grand children are 8 hour drive away and havnt even called in years.
i thought i was doing the right thing, ive nothing to gain from this, i havnt had a relationship or even a short break in 10yrs and get nothing from the state or her, all i get is a peace of mind knowing im doing the right thing not putting her in a prison/carehome where she knows nobody.

all the stupid comments from Sendhelp, GardenArtist, MsMadge accusing me of some abuse for asking questions is borderline maniacal and they should look at their caregiving, if they are so rude/abusive and angry at a random person on the internet god knows how they treat the poor people they care for.

im done, what a welcome, i wont be back.
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The lady doth protest too much
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Robin aka xxxxxxxxxx you need help for your grandma. Call the Area Agency on Aging to find it. Sounds like you are overwhelmed. That means grandma being in your care is no longer the level of care she needs. Time to hand her care over to the pros.
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I feel sorry for this poster. Not because she received any unsympathetic answers, but because I can see that she was really hoping for a answer that made the problem go away. Not one that just deals with it. I remember praying for an "answer" daily, and really wanting this burden to be taken from me. Alzheimer's/dementia is a slow unrelenting process and unfortunately there is no such answer. For the caregiver, hearing that there really is no answer, essentially being told they are stuck just dealing with it, can feel like being attacked. They are NOT , but that's what it can feel like. I think that's where the OP finds herself now. I remember the feeling. And I think, with a little time, she'll be able to re-read the answers here and see them as honest attempts to "help her deal". Good luck. (This is me, looking back and wondering how I survived being a caregiver, and knowing some of the folks on this site were part of that.)
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Time to get grandmother into Depends and have her evaluated by her doctor. You might try and put grandmother on the toilet every 2 hours (if possible.) It's obvious your grandmother has a mental disorder. And, at 98 years old it's a wonder she can still walk without aid. There isn't any easy answer to this. My husband pees on the carpet and tile floor, then denies it. However, he has Alzheimer's. Other than what I have already suggested I can only think of a mild anti-anxiety med that your grandmother's doctor may recommend. Good luck.
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I had to deal with this problem, and the first thing I had to do was re-adjust my outlook on what I found was "acceptable" to deal with real life and death issues. The challenge is that hygiene matters in an elderly individual, especially elderly woman, with dementia can become just that. If you step back, and look at it from that perspective, it may be easier for you. I am sorry some people are judging you. We all walk a difficult path in caregiving, and others are not really in our shoes.

Around the same time in a particular decline, some people lose: (a) continence, (b) mobility, (c) ability to coherently speak (aphasia). These are connected with a specific decline in both cognitive health and physical health. It is a difficult time to manage, but it is not as impossible as it seems. I will provide some general advice, and if you want more specifics, please let me know.

I would suggest several things: (1) toileting schedule, (2) get your grandmother to the upstairs when you go out of the house and have her watch TV or something there. If you fear that she may fall, then you might want to put a stair gate up.

Here is the thing that many do not tell you, this challenge with continence gets worse, significantly worse, and often these things are heads-up that dementia is getting worse. I can honestly tell you that you will be surprised at what you can cope with, when you remove the emotional stigma around things, and make them more routine in approach. Another thing you can do is get the night-time diapers for day time if you are out for a short period to help reduce the chance of incontinence for that period.

You want to start right now and start to trim her fingernails. I am sorry this is miserable to do. But you need to do that so you can also keep her hands and fingers clean.
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To some of those who respond with anger, give some thought as to what anger accomplishes. I came on here during a difficult time, and also was met with some hostile responses to simple questions I had. I also stayed away from AgingCare for a long time, as I was so overwhelmed, I simply couldn't handle another drop of negativity. I figured many things out on my own, and with other research. I cared for my mother with Alzheimer's Disease until she peacefully died at home during Stage 7, all the way to the end. If people here are asking questions, please try not to be hostile and judgmental, you really don't know what is going on in their life, and some of them, like me, just needed someone safe to talk to, when they felt their life was spiralling out of control. Patience, please. Many of us have faced the worst. Surely we can be patient with others, after all we have gone through.
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You seem truly overwhelmed by the increasing needs of your grandmother. As a grandchild you were generous and loving to invite her into your home. You probably did not realize the monumental future challenges. By your descriptions your grandmother is suffering from dementia to some degree. It is very difficult and very time consuming to care for a woman with your grandmothers ever increasing needs. There is no shame in asking for help from her doctor and other medical professionals who she already sees. Just a call to her doctor's office will get you referrals to experienced people who care about both of your situations. They will help find a balance for you both. Please call today? Explain the situation to her doctor's staff. They will find help for you quickly.
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Hay xxxxx
I feel you. You should be allowed to write your frustration without being judged. People here are just trying to help. I was faced with the same challenge (kinda) MIL recently flooded her house. She is staying with us till the house is repaired. She can't do steps so she has to sleep on our couch .She won't stay in the handicapped room at the hotel the insurance company is paying for. She can't negotiate our toilet cause it doesn't have railings to help her up. The first week was a sh*t storm. Toileting wasn't an issue. I have been her care giver for 6 years. This was unacceptable. I tried everything but our toilet is in a bad spot that doesn't allow for alterations. The portable toilet was humiliating for both her and I. (even with the screen). I finally found a free standing toilet rail that I could shimmy into our bathroom....she still couldn't get up. I put my foot done. I stopped "accommodating" her. Her dementia didn't allow for specific instructions but I started making her lift herself on an armed chair. When she would complete the therapy (fought me the whole way) I would give her Jello with whip cream.(sounds stupid but the reward stimulates more then the cognitive thoughts she struggles with.) After 2 days the patience paid off. She does it on her own.
My point is, you need to do the thinking for her. If you have the money could you get one of those stair lifts? Build an extra down stairs bathroom (increase value to your home) rent a porta potty for outside or build an out house? Use diapers. Only you know your situation. Be happy she didn't fall down the stairs...I'd rather deal with the sh*t storm then the guilt. Also the sh*t under the nails. I use a nail brush on her...after many trying times of me brushing under her nails, she does it herself (kinda). I also make sure the nails stay very short with frequent trips to the nail salon (nice for both of us) {I make sure the nails are clean before we go}.
Good luck
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... you don't believe she has dementia, do you ... tell me why you believe she's doing this. 
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for heaven sake put this poor lady in a care facility she will be cared for and have a social life SHAME ON YOU.
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Your grandmother is 98 years old for crying' out loud! See what you feel like when you are 89 even. You can't say she is capable of going up and down the stairs at that age. If you are this callous it is no wonder she hides from you and fears discussing it. Apparently to you there is only one answer and that is for her to go upstairs that she does not feel comfortable on. My mother is 93 and she is very unsteady on her feet but she uses a walker. But there is no way I would force her to go up steps....sorry need to end this as I am becoming too angry.
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That's... what I was thinking. That mobility at 98, although "possible" to climb stairs, is too hard on grandmother. My grandmother was like this at 100. She *could* walk on her own, she *could* climb steps with a rail, but she really shouldn't have been doing any of those things and I was naive and didn't know this. I would let her do it, even encourage her to walk too fast. I regret it. Sounds like perhaps grandma is trying to say, in so many words, that she can't climb the stairs to use the bathroom when she needs to go.  I would think that the large majority of elders who are 98 don't and can't climb stairs.

Adult incontinence undergarments are one option, getting grandma a portable commode on first level is an option, getting her into managed care is an option. I don't see an option to demand that grandma climb up to the bathroom when she has to go. Grandma already decided she can't do that, for whatever reason. :-/  

Do you have a doctor who can advise you about this, xxxxxxxxx?  I'd want someone to look at my grandma and tell me if her mobility is worsening, if her mind is worsening, what is it that has caused her to choose pooping in her hands as a viable option here.  That didn't come from nowhere and nothing.  
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I'm so sorry you are having to deal with this. I know how heartbreaking it is. When my brilliant classy Mom started to defecate into her hands due to her dementia I couldn't handle it. Even if I was sitting right with her saying "don't put your hands in there" it didn't help. Sorry to all the "better" caregivers on this forum but I had to place her in a facility at that point for her own dignity. I KNOW she would not have wanted me or her grandchildren to be cleaning up her solid waste. Bowel issues are often deal breakers. When they are handling their own feces, it's the dementia. I saw it happen with other people at my Mom's Alzheimer's care center, the filthy hands. Some residents wore special garments that only opened in the back to keep hands out of the diapers. Prayers for all.
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Xxxxx, first off, the posters can only respond to what information is given, and often the Original Poster asks their questions out of frustration, and Not enough information is given. It's seems that now that you have given more info in your care and history with Grandma, better advice will be given to you.

It's clear you are frustrated, and that your Grandma's dementia is progressing and that you are not prepared for it, or haven't yet had the time to educate yourself on what's currently happening or is to come, and that's understandable, your working, you have no additional help, your BURNED OUT! It's loud and clear, and coming accross in your posts!

Please believe me, the posters here on this site will be your best friend in the coming days, weeks and months, so don't give up now! You've told us more, and more helpful advice will be on the way, so take a deep breath, and try to understand both sides of a community advice and friendship column, where the written word does not always come accross as understanding as it could have face to face.

I personally do not have a lot of experience with dementia, but I too am beginning to have some difficult issues with my FIL who is bedbound with lung cancer and on Hospice in my home, and is losing his mental faculties, possibly due to the cancer spreading to his brain. After 6 or so years, I learn something on here everyday!

This is a different journey for all of us, but I promise you, the good people on this site will be a godsend, when you really need it! Try hard to really explain your questions and responses, so that everyone gets a clear picture! Don't give up here!
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