How do you help someone who doesn’t see the need?

A problem I face alot is people (upon hearing some of the stuff my mom says and does) will say "you know she can't help it". Yes, I do and I love her just as much...maybe more...cause I know she's suffering, but it still is hard to deal with sometimes. I feel like I'm being a bad daughter by saying anything. Sometimes though the pressure builds up so much that you just have to vent a little bit.
Secretsister, when I read your posts it reminds me so much of my mom.

Did it matter? Sorry it bothered you. I still did not hear the quote because I'm not an avid Albert Einstein fan.

It is not productive to continue to badger sister.
She is doing her very best, we are not walking in her shoes and none of us would really want to.
Why not just pray for her??

You left out the most important part of the insanity quote, which is from Albert Einstein.

“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again
and expecting different results.”

I guess it would be different if I had been angry.

I also never heard of that saying. I guess there is a reason why.

Thanks for the thoughts and "prayers".

IF either of you ladies choose to be insulted then it is because you have never heard that expression "Definitition of insanity is doing the same thing over & over" used in context before. It was not referring to you. It was not unkind - why don't you search for the expression online if you doubt that.

As far as detaching with love, I seem to have read many of Secret Sister's posts telling others just that - boundaries and detaching. Its odd that in this situation it would be taken the wroing way. Since her sense of control is being threatened by a court appointed investigator I will forgive her jumping to conclusions, but jumping to conclusions and misinterpreting people is not productive.

As far as her guardianship goes, what will be will be. If she and you can't take well wishes and kind suggestions from others than so be it - but please don't misinterpret or twist what I have written. If you have anger at a situation please don't shift it onto others who are not involved. That is advice I found in ElderRage - worth a read again if you are wound up.

Sympathy, mediation, detatching emotionally and all of the other good suggestions that others have are not personal attacks. Ah well, I will pray for you.

Mitzi, thank you for the clarification.

Annlidot.... I have to address one statement. The best thing you can do is to detach with love. I understand where you are coming from, but it takes a much deeper kind of love to protect a person that is hurting themselves and especially from a mental disorder (whether self-induced or chemically off).

It runs into such a fine line from appearing controlling. Basically what being a guardian is all about is typically being a gate keeper to keep a person from harm. That takes a new level of love.

A lot of people mistake being a gatekeeper/guardian with being controlling when that is furthest from the truth. I'm not defending any one side, but I think its important to realize that there are things that go beyond a dysfunction (although the relationship becomes just that). But once you recognize the "disease" (for lack of a better term), you can then love them enough to protect them.

Sometimes it just doesn't happen and in the case of Secret.... it "appears" to be the last final surge to do that. None of us are in a position to judge that.

Also I want to define insanity for you according to the site dictionary (dot com) for a reference. I'm sure you can look it up in any dictionary.

And I quote...

 

insanity Show IPA
Use insanity in a Sentence
–noun, plural -ties.
1. the condition of being insane; a derangement of the mind.
2. Law. such unsoundness of mind as affects legal responsibility or capacity.
3. Psychiatry. (formerly) psychosis.
4. extreme folly; senselessness; foolhardiness.

In your previous post, you may be referring to co-dependency, but that also runs a thin line with being a gatekeeper/guardian.

I'm as fierce as a pit bull when I see someone who cannot help themselves being mistreated. Not only for just my own mother and father, but for anyone. I pick and choose my battles to protect a person because I do not want to get in a cycle of co-dependency, but please be careful when throwing terms around. Insanity is pure foolhardiness in a variety of forms. Protecting a loved one for years, doesn't mean insane, it means there's a tougher love and a higher standard of when to walk away.

God bless and Merry Christmas!

Those were very unkind comments. To judge someone as doing the same thing over and over expecting different results, calling them insane? That's rather inflamatory and judgmental, and the "blessings" incongruous. Good thing God's in control, and not Job's friends.

As Guardian, the court has given me the authority to act in my parent's best interests. That sometimes includes hiring others to care for them and meet their needs, which I have done on numerous occasions. Still, I'm ultimately responsible for their care, and answer to the court (and God) for everything done, not my peers.

Thanks to all who are objective and have offered constructive suggestions. For those of you who have to deal with difficult situations, let this be a lesson. Just because we love someone and try to help, you know it's not always welcome. And even when we are doing a fabulous job (kudos from our previous Probate Judge and Registrar), there are sometimes uninformed outsiders who will criticize our efforts. Avoid them.

I thank God that he has entrusted me with the care of my parents. Mom will never appreciate that, but God knows everything my husband and son and I have done to bring him glory. Just because an elder complains does not mean it's legitimate, as any reasonable observant person knows. Having had to deal with a difficult parent possessing limited comprehension helps us understand others who lack comprehension as well. Unless you've had to care for someone with a serious mental incapcitation, please refrain from judgmental attitudes and criticisms. (Especially when one is grieving.) Part of the problem, at times, is dealing with those who just don't get it, and are often cruel in their observations and assessments.

I thank God for the ability to persevere even in the midst of trials and difficulties. He has wonderfully provided help in time of need, and blessed us with encouraging supporters along the way. There have been many on this site who have shared their experience, strength and hope, and have been comforting (as God calls us to do). I thank God for the many professionals who have come along beside us, to help with the Caregiving journey. From Physicians to Social Workers, our Michigan State Police Trooper ally and friend, godly Pastoral counseling, and the wonderful friends God brought our way. I am thankful that knowldegeable professionals have counseled us in dealing with Mom and Dad, and guided us along the path. I am also thankful for the supportive family who not only stand beside us during the difficult times, but provide assistance when needed. One in particular, God used to send us a tangible gift, truly unexpected, and most certainly a blessing from God. So, if God be for us, who can be against us???

Many have tried to talk with mother, from counselors, Social Workers, and other professionals, and those who have tried to help her have all failed. She consistently alienates those with whom she disagrees, and seems to disagree with everyone who doesn't share her convoluted opinions. Even today, her own husband complains to the nurses about her. The nursing home staff documents every incident, but don't worry much, because she so rarely visits. His Physician has suggested limited supervised visits by her, but cannot stop her, short of some catastropic incident, and due process. They expect me, as Guardian to make that call, but I will not, and I have put it back on them. After all, as client, and my Dad's Guardian and advocate, I have entrusted him to their care, and it is their responsibility to make sure no harm comes to him. So, they watch and redirect, as much as one can in this situation. Dad has found the ultimate escape into a world of limited contact and comprehension. And he is safe from Mom's abuse and the harmful effects of her neglect. I can't shield him from everything, and cannot change the way Mom behaves with him. For that we continually pray.

But even though we struggle, my heart is still tender toward Mom. I forgive her over and over for all the hurts and heartaches she's created. It baffles me how one can be so hard-hearted and bitter. Actions have consequences, and she is reaping what she has sown. She has no clue what she is missing, as she has somewhat alienated her only other daughter, as well. Little does Mom realize her youngest covets the only thing remaining: her possessions, concluding there may never be a healthy relationship between them. We grieve the losses she created by her own hand while she yet lives. Still, we pray for our mother, that God would change her heart and mind. I am not beyond praying for one more miracle.

Mitzipinkie, I guess that is why I suggested letting go. If someone is narcissistic they won't change because you want them to. In fact, one of the best strategies in the world to deal with people who have mental illness is to detach with love. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Now I know that this thread is all about Secret's problem, so I hope and know you will pray for her. Regardless of what anyone thinks sometimes the Lord works in mysterious ways, that goes for having a challenging personality for a parent. Maybe that is part of G*d's plan too.

Blessings to SS - and all the prayer warriors on this site

Praying doesn't take away responsibility, and we have plenty. Until a Public Guardian is legally in place, it is still my responsibility. And regardless of what happens, she's still Mom. Lots of people abandon theirs, I just don't happen to be one of them, so I don't understand those who suggest such. Jesus didn't abandon his, and when he could no longer care for her, found someone else to do it. I can't push a button and make things happen, but it will happen when/if the court decides. And when attorneys are involved, and a complicated estate, and I have Guardianship and Conservatorship of Dad, it doesn't happen easily or quickly as some suggest, so I don't understand unsympathetic and judgmental comments.

I didn't volunteer for this, but was asked to step in because there was great need. (Something any loving son or daughter would do.) Mom forgets how bad things were for them, with phones being shut off and creditors banging on the door, and threatening phone calls. Mom assumes no personal responsibility for the wretched state of their affairs, or realizes what it takes to pay off creditors and balances she helped accrue. Thanks, Mitzi, for understanding. Not everyone will.

Mizti, you're right. We learn to endure criticism, complaints, arguments, mistreatment, judgementalism, and even accusations. Many people don't understand what it's like to care for someone with personality and mood disorders, and what a challenge they can be. I know many do, though, from reading about it on these threads.

While prayer changes things, God does not change people like my Mom against her will. And my letting go is not a responsible act with a vulnerable elder who cannot take care of herself. So, I'll keep plugging along, and doing what's right, whether people understand it or not, and even whether or not Mom likes it or me; negative comments notwithstanding.

Should the day come if a PG takes over, I'd still have a lot of paperwork to finish regarding Mom's 1/2 of the assets. And I'll still have to deal with her concerning them. After all, they are also 1/2 Dad's and she won't have total control of things, and neither will I. It will surely be an interesting journey. So far, the way has been rough. But there have been a few encouragers along the way. Those of you who are sensitive to that have made the way easier by your kindnesses. Thank you Nancy, Nance, and Mitzipinki, as you have been a blessing.

Well Annlidiot... I've got to tell you, there is a lot invested in these types of issues emotionally, financially, and physically. It's extremely difficult to give it to God (although not impossible).

With a narcissistic mother, they "appear" to outsiders as perfectly rationale, but to those who are close and surround them, not even in the ballpark of rationale.

We can pray, but God also requires us to do our part. Letting go something that is so "vested" is human of us. I know for my own situation, there are times I literally have to verbally talk out loud to get myself to relax and that its in God's hands.

The one thing that I consider an absolute blessing in all of my issues with a narcissistic mother.... is that it has taught me how to endure. Nothing else I encounter is worse. Nothing. Everything else is a cake walk. I don't get easily offended, I can multi-task to an umpteenth power, I can enjoy life more fully, and I've been given wisdom to deal daily.

Once we get over their behavior, we can enjoy what we have been given with more peace.

God bless everyone.... caregiving... not an easy road, but one we can definitely learn from.

I don't get it. If it is so hard, then just let the public guardian do it. It seems like there is too much emotion going on here.

Since you are a God fearing woman why not let go and pray.

Thank you so very much, Nance! The Lord bless you.

I'll be praying for you Sister--BEST of luck.

Wow, thank you ladies, for your candid responses.

I did not choose to have someone else take over; Mom doesn't think she needs a Guardian anymore, but wants anyone but me to help with the finances. She wants no responsibility, and couldn't handle it, anyway. What she doesn't understand is that she will always have a Guardian, because she's already been declared Incapacitated. Unfortunately, a Psych doc said "she can make some of her own decisions." He has only spent less than one hour with her, and did just a "mini-mental." I talked to him numerous times, and gave him year's worth of documentation to "prove" deficiencies, but he's a crusader, apparently.

She is mad because I went to doctor appointments with her and told her physicians the truth she was hiding. And I sought counsel from police about her driving without a license, who told us to disable the car and removed the keys. While Dad was still home, he had more keys made. Neither should have been driving. So the police told us to drive the cars away. We did, while making sure they had transportation when needed or wanted. I sought counsel from Social Workers and Psychiatrists, who told me to set boundaries with Mom (because she couldn't) regarding her money and spending. This was not pleasing to Mom.

I was advised to set boundaries with her visits to Dad, by his Social Worker, because they were documenting increased trouble after her visits. He became more aggravated and combative, needing pharmaceutical intervention. Dad cusses her out, etc. (She was hitting him, while he was still driving, and neglecting him in the home, so I felt super-vigilant to protect him.) She is mean to him in her responses, and tries to be controlling. The facility is documenting this. But they say I'm a wonderful support for Dad. He and I have tender moments, but he can't hold meaningful conversations anymore, as the mental clarity is gone. Word salad is the best it gets, besides the rare moment. (Got a hug and a "I like you" today from him.)

Other issues with Mom include me getting her weaned off 50+ years use of prescription narcotics. She almost died from them in a car wreck January 2007, mixed with alcohol abuse, and thankfully, with Guardianship, we made great strides in the last two years. But she constantly requests more pain meds...and if I'm not at those appointments, she'll get them, according to her Primary Care Physician. She's already told me she'll "shop" for a doc who'll give her driving privileges back, and her narcotics, as well. Of coarse she wants me out of the picture. Astute Physicians recognise this, but only say so verbally. One Psychiatrist told the court she's in "remission," even though 5 other ones say she has serious cognitive deficiencies. (A long term problem.) Who's report do you think went to court? And every time she goes to the doctor without me, she tells them I'm abusing her. She never does this in my presence.

Mom also leaves her door open at her apartment building - for long periods of time, with valuables inside. I removed one of three diamond rings, for safety, because she has no sense of concern about this. Insurance wouldn't cover the loss if she willfully leaves the door open. Will be getting that ring appraised, and added to an inventory list. The police know I have it, just to cover myself. A friend stopped by to talk about Guardianship, and she let her right in. This friend said she was concerned for her safety, as well.

Mom seems to follow anyone's advice she talks to. She tells me she wants to "go bankrupt." I wonder who's leading her astray? Strange world this...

Mom recently fell asleep with the oven on, burning hers and a neighbor's dinner. Two days later, she left a burner on, and I had to turn it off. She gets her meds confused, and instead of working with me to set up boxes, as suggested by her Physician, she refused, telling people I "made mistakes." I asked for a referral to the health department, who came in, but she told them not to come back.

Mom's court-appointed attorney told me not to be in too much of a hurry to sell their home. Well, if I'm removed as Conservator, I won't be selling it, will I? And the auctioneer who just did an appraisal for us, well, that may be in someone else's hands, as well. But I have covered my bases to the best of my ability.

Thanks for all your messages of support and encouragement. For those of you who have been through this, you know how heartrending it is. For those of you who haven't, can you imagine a Probate taking over your mother's life, and taking charge of your parent's family home, assets and possessions? I already know the philosophy of the proposed "professional" Guardian, and it is radically different than mine (or Mom's for that matter...). Mom has no clue what's about to befall her and her possessions. It may very well break your heart, as well. The remaining heirs are myself and my sister, and our two sons. This is so grievous to me! Do you think the Probate Court gives a rip about any of that?

Concerning Mom, this proposed Guardian spoke to me about Mom going on Medicare and being placed... (Did she mean Medicaid?) Mom has no idea what she has wrought, and about to occur. She thinks they will give her full freedom to make all her own decisions, have a checkbook again (which would be insane), and be "her own Guardian." She thinks she can march back home, and distribute the contents as she wishes. She thinks she can "sell some things, and give some money to her church." It was her Pastor, by the way, who pushed for Mom to take action against me, which was a red flag from the beginning. The woman refused to meet with me and talk, saying she was a counselor, and this is a legal matter... I'd say she's not very objective, if she only listens to one side.

My one remaining hope is an attorney who made an appointment with me for Tuesday. He said, "Something's wrong with this picture, and I'm not buying it." He encouraged me not to worry about the unknowns, and I am praying for that miracle. From now till Tuesday at 1:30 pm, I'll be wondering... God is still in control.

By "lower bar," I meant that your sense of danger for your mother involved her reckless irresponsible spending. The law might see that as a right. It's her money, she gets to spend it. Danger for them might include that she's too easily swindled...and obviously that would be YOU in her delusional eyes. Usually "danger to oneself and others" means physically violent, suicidal, etc. And even then here in CA, the state can hold them for observation for only a few days.

So looks like you have to choose your battles at this point, which is to make sure your father gets half the proceeds of the sale of the family home. He too depends on this for his upkeep in the nursing home.

Also, there is a certain calm to being assured that you do not have to like what is going on. You can no longer change it to what is fair and just. You have been unjustly accused, and the system is running over you. You do not have to swallow your outrage and say "well, maybe it's for the best." (Actually it might be the best for YOU to not have to deal with your mother so much.)

You got one of those raw deals, rotten mothers. My deadbeat sisters have been replaced by four parakeets, three cats, and a more than decent set of next door neighbors. Two grown nieces have stepped up to fill the gaps of loving family.

Hope you know what the off ramp for YOU in this situation. Probably making sure that your father's interests are protected.

Sometimes you have to detach and let the person live their own life. Maybe the blessing will be that you are free to have your life and can finally give up all of the time and emotions invested in attempting to care for someone that you say does not listen or like you. If she is petitioning the court to replace you, let her.

Let someone else have a go. Let go and focus on something else in your life that is positive.

God bless you for all of the energy you have put into this. It is in the courts and the Lords hands.

What does a person have to do to get someone declared 'mentally incompetent'? Can you make that happen and sell her house, put the stuff in storage closer to you? And you're right to have someone else take over as financial guardianship so she can have somebody else to scream at. Does your dad ever have moments of clarity any more to ask his opinion? What does your husband say about your mom? He's seen this all first hand, he oughta have an opinion.

Thank you, Mitzipinki.

Dear Secret and Alz...

sometimes you just can't do anymore.... I'm at that point myself but in a different arena in dealing with an estate my mother will be receiving and sharing with her "dear baby brother". GAG....

Anyway... sometimes all you can do is go to the carpet and put the rest in God's hands. It sucks plain and simple. I hate seeing someone fleeced and done wrong. I mean I literally can feel my blood boil, but our God is bigger than the law, but he gave human beings one thing.... free will.

I'm sure He is looking at those destroying themselves and just crying. If you see our pain, can you imagine His? Hang in there and do your best for God. All else is out of our hands.

Thank you for your very thoughtful response. The chosen Guardian intends to stop paying the mortage, turn off the power and water, when we were going to sell, so she could eventually move to a beautiful ALF. (Mom fears NH and Psych ward.) The "proposed Guardian" said she'd give Mom $50.00 per week mad money, and take her shopping once a month. Most of this sound irresponsible to me, and I don't think very professional. I am mad at the system.

I don't understand what you mean by saying I set a very low bar. I gave her only a little to spend, and bought all her groceries over the last two years. Since she complained, the proposed Guardian suggested the $50.00 for her weekly. I did want to appear to comply, but hated every second of it. Mom has been spending their assets in harmful ways for the past 52+ years. That is what I thought was MY job to stop, but she complained. It seems they'd rather listen to her than me.

The last thing in the world Mom needs is more stuff. Been cleaning their home of 52+ years for the past two, and none of our dwellings can contain it all, so I won't be buying her any more "gifts," but her friends sure are. Nothing satifies Mom's bent, except demonizing me. Nothing will fill her emptiness, save God.

Further, what bothers me, is that I am my Dad's legal Guardian and Conservator, as well. His last will and testament named me as executor, and he'd be caring for all this if he wasn't stuck in a NH with Advanced Stage Alzheimer's. Mom is abusive towards him, both physically and emotionally. I want to be able to protect him, and his 1/2 of the estate from dissipation. This is a sad and grievous situation, but I still have hope.

I am currently praying the Elder Law Attorney we have an appointment with on Tuesday will help. Definitely praying for a mircale! Will you join me in that? Thank you.

Soon, it seems the financial situation WILL be out of your hands, and she will bother someone else, someone with clout. You can say with all authority "call Mr. Jones to request more money. I don't have your money any more." These county conservators WILL have to handle the mortgage payments, and the bills, and all lawyer fees are authorized by the court. THEY will put her on an allowance, as my mother is, and "spending spree" mad money the county budgeted (not that they pay attention to their own budget) is $25 month or so.

If she's a shopaholic, then that's her life's activity now, fulfilling wants, filling the emptiness. Just as my sisters have a legal right to be deadbeats, your mother has a legal right to whack out, to be her individual crazy self, just as long as she is not a danger to herself and others, the old 51/50 (in terms of being committed mentally).

Of course, YOU have set a very low bar, wild spending, for her "danger," where the law would start "danger" at pummeling fists and flying knives. The PG's office is set up to stop this sort of financial self-abuse, just as it is set up to protect the little old lady who donates to every cause that comes her way, just as it is set up to stop family financial abuse.

If she can't think of anything to do with her life except spend money indulgently, perhaps related activities would help her. Some people are addicted to shopping, then RETURNING. As your mother seems to want, then NOT want, that might be a way for her to channel her energy.

If you are free of the legal obligations of her finances, and free of the effective reach of her nagging, then you can do "random acts of kindness." Send unsigned card every week with a $10 bill in it. Perhaps she'll see this as her Mad Money. When you do see her, bring her a "I thought you'd like this" present, like stuffed animal or rocky road ice cream.

Your mother has her entire identity set by now, and short of a magic elixir (Rx) or a transformative miracle, seems like she's going to ride her war horse into the sunset. She doesn't admit it doesn't work. Hey try Dr. Phil's line: "Gee, how's that working for you so far?" (She'll probably take that as a clue to increase her vindictiveness until it DOES work! ;-)

Perhaps for your self, make a list of upcoming events that will take the responsibility off you. Some are coming legally, but add a few of your own. Chop chop. Cut this cord, then that cord. Give yourself a whole two days where you do not even look at her papers, bills. Turn off volume on answering machine. Go out of town.

As this is the Christmas season, a time to reflect on love and generosity, take her to see Dicken's A Christmas Carol. I wonder how many souls that classic has saved in real life. How many people see their greedy selves in old Scrooge?

If you get her DVD hooked up, then buy her Andre Rieu's DVD of their concert at Rockefeller Center in NYC. Mom and I have watched it a dozen times, and it is charming. Rieu being always generous and gracious with his praise and humor. Perhaps it will rub off a bit.

I reconsidered a previous statement: I am worn out trying to meet her "wants." Looking for answers...

Mom's insatiable appetite for more more more has literally worn me out. In trying to meet her needs, I have fetched and provided beyond my comfort level. Still, nothing satifies her. She still wants more more more. And it must be her way, in her timing, or else! So much so, Mom has called the authorities on me, in an effort to get me to comply with her unreasonable demands. I have done so many 400 mile round trips down to her home retrieving items for her that I'm fatigued, and so was a car or two. Now her apartment is filled filled filled. But she still wants more more more. Wow! For instance, she wants to buy some groceries on sale, and asked for a large chunk of cash. Her freezer is already jam-packed full! We just brought her 10 boxes of decorations, leaving 48 of them downstate. She asked for money to go buy more! Incredible!!! (I didn't give her the money tonight, as I am stalling.)

This situation is out of control. When I don't meet her demands, she writes a letter to a judge saying I'm "emotionally abusing" her. Since when is conservatism abusive? I understand it's her money. But she signed on a mortgage, and needs to pay that back before blowing everything. And there's the monthly expenses... But each time I deny her requests, she gets angry, and threatens me again. I'm told, "They have rights to blow money if they want." Well, I think she has a responsibility to pay her bills. Since when is a deranged person's "rights" to stiff creditors considered a legitimate "need"? What is wrong with this system? (So we stiff the bank because she "wants" more stuff?) And I'm considered abusive because I want to limit unwise spending and pay just debts? What in the world is wrong with this picture? I feel like I'm living in the middle of a nightmare!

We went to Mom's apartment tonight. She called, saying she wanted a cheap shelving unit she rejected two nights ago. Her place was filled with dozens of new stuffed animals, boxes, etc. One can barely walk around in there. The closets, cupboards, drawars, and all floor space is filled to the brim. Only an empty space on her walls remain. (Won't be for long...) What chaos! And she enjoys nothing. Demanded a DVD, tape player, CD player, camera, but cannot operate any of them, saying, "I don't have time..." And if I deny her anything, she screams, "Abuse!" Wonder what the court will do with her? Guess we find out soon.

My fear is they will "help" her spend her money, by paying her attorney and guardian and conservator fees. So sorry bank. I tried to pay you back. So sorry creditors. I did the best I could. Seems some deranged person has "rights" that trump reasonable and rational. And I am not happy with this system. I get the shaft for trying to do things decently and in order. Please, somebody, tell me how to stop this train wreck.

I didn't mean to write, "many of you turn against those trying to help," but meant that you understand, because you have loved ones who turn against your help. (A little clarification.)