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Father just made his bar buddy his POA. A few facility employees keep insisting I speak with my dad's POA that isn't even in effect.


Mom is on hospice. She has Alzheimer's, but was just diagnosed with cancer.


It's not a medical POA. Father retains his autonomy right now. My mom has cancer and dementia. Dad is so mean he spits nails. The nurse practitioner sent me a text about how he spoke with my dad's friend and how he's on board regarding mom's pain relief. He said if I'd like his number he'd share it with me.


My response was "No thank you! If he's medical POA (dad said he is not), you guys should have a copy of that form. If he's relaying my dad's wishes, that's something different. I'm not involved with the buddy...that's my dad's thing. I barely know him. But I agree with the Dr that pain relief is the goal. 😊"


My dad said it's a POA for the grandkids inheritance only. 🙄


My dad recently said he deals with his buddy because he does what he says without arguing. He's punishing me because I didn't bow down and do everything he told me to. I created boundaries. He's verbally and emotionally abusive. A narcissist.


When I called my dad yesterday to discuss my mom he made believe there was nothing to talk about. When I mentioned mom's cancer he told me he didn't want to talk and said, "byeeee byeeee." Like a dismissive na na na na na na.


Anyway, should I reach out to the director? It's bad enough I'm dealing with mom's death. It's a punch in the gut every time they suggest I talk to a non family member whom I barely know.

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Fedup,

Each State is different but I think with POAs they are pretty much the same. This is what I have been told concerning POA and my experience. You may want to see a lawyer to see if its like this in your State.

You father has no power to assign POA to someone for your Mom. Only Mom can assign a POA and she is incompetent to do so. Even if Dad had POA for Mom, he cannot transfer that POA to someone else unless your Mom named a secondary. In that instance, Dad could revoke his POA for Mom and allow the secondary to take over. Or he dies before Mom and the secondary takes over.

Doctors can put a POA in effect by declaring a person incompetent to make informed decisions. Its written in the Springing POA document. The POA does not need to go to court for a Judge to make a judgement. With Guardian/Conservatorship it does need to go to court and a Judge uses doctors recommendations to make a decision.
I doubt if the beer buddy would go to court to get conservatorship. Its expensive and no guarantee he will get it and I doubt if Dad will give buddy the money. You as Moms daughter could protest it. You are Moms closest kin, not Dad. Other than being married to Mom, he is not a blood relative.

I have the impression that beer buddy getting POA is recent. As u replied to me, Mom was diagnosed years ago with Dementia. In early stages if they can understand what they are signing, a lawyer may go ahead with a POA. But seems your Mom is pasted being able to assign anyone.

I agree that all you need to do is what you did. The buddy has nothing to do with Moms care. He can be there to make sure Dad understands what is going on with Mom but he cannot make decisions on Moms care, IMO. Tell the NP she/he is not to give any info to the buddy directly concerning Moms care. If Dad tells him nothing u can do. Him holding POA for Dad gives him no authority over Mom. POAs are individual.

I think you have already told the NP this man has no authority concerning your Mom. That should be it. The NP suggested it, thats where he/she stops. Now you ignore NP. Hospice is actually now in charge of Moms care not the NP. The Hospice has a Dr who oversees the Nurses. He orders any medication Mom needs and discontinues any he feels is not needed. The Nurses can give no medication that is not ordered by the Hospice Dr. You can ask the Hospice Nurse if I am right. Mom will be given morphine for the pain and ease of breathing. If she has anxiety, the nurses will get an order for that.

Now you tell Dad, the POA and the NP that your Mom is in the hands of Hospice. That your time will be with her and spent on her. That they will no longer be involved with her care. Thats what Hospice is there for. That the POAs responsibility is Dad and only Dad. That Mom is going to have a peaceful death. Soooo, they all are to leave you alone so u can spend uninterrupted time with Mom.

When she passes, I would report the NP. He/she is too full of themselves. He/she IMO has stepped over the line. I would also allow the POA to take over Dads care and walk away.
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Fedup45 May 2023
Agreed. Thank you for the advice. I'm just going to concern myself with mom.

Hospice is giving her a fentanyl patch for pain. It was just upped.
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Fedup, so glad she's on Hospice. Visit her and love her. Ignore your "father".
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Fedup45 May 2023
That's exactly what I'll do. Thank you!
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Your father's financial POA has zip, nothing, nil to contribute to discussions about your mother. If staff at the facility are seeking input from your father's POA regarding *anything* to do with your mother, they had better explain themselves. Your father cannot palm off his responsibilities for supporting to your mother on anyone else. It's as though everybody (starting, I don't doubt, with your father) is intentionally missing the point!!!
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ventingisback May 2023
It's possible buddy has POA of Mom.
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There's a lot here that makes absolute no sense. A POA has nothing to do with inheritances as it ends with the death of the person who granted it, or sooner if the person gives it to someone else.

Your mom has just been diagnosed with cancer, yet you're dealing with your mom's death? What am I missing here?
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ventingisback May 2023
You have to read some comments below, then it makes sense.
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Careful:

If buddy tries to get guardianship over your Mom and succeeds, then you're in trouble. Guardianship would mean he would have control over everything regarding your Mom: her finances, the health decisions, even who she can have contact with/not...

Also:
a diagnosis of dementia (your Mom) doesn't automatically mean she can't sign POA. You might not be aware of that.
ONLY a court can declare someone mentally incompetent. NOT a doctor. There are various levels of dementia. If the person still seems logical, still knows certain essential facts, then she can still be deemed mentally competent and CAN sign POA. A lawyer would allow it, if when speaking to her, she appears mentally competent.

IF THAT'S THE CASE,
then you can't be 100% sure buddy doesn't already have POA over your Mom.

Then maybe really, the facility is talking about buddy's POA over your Mom...

If that's what happened, I suggest you get your Mom to revoke that POA right away, and make you POA. It's easy to revoke, cancel, a POA.
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Fedup45 May 2023
She's mid to late stage. For the love of God, why can't people just live in peace.

I would never assume to insert myself into anyone else's family. It's such a shame.

Fingers crossed I don't have to deal much longer. I say that with compassion in my heart, because my mom is in so much pain.

I live by the saying not my circus, not my monkeys. I wish others would do so as well.
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There's definitely a lot going on here...let me be clear, I've never had POA. Mom can't sign POA, dementia Alzheimer's diagnosis is years old. Dad's buddy is a new thing...it may be POA, it may be executor.

Dad's buddy cannot make medical decisions for my mom. This is why I'm questioning whether or not to contact the AL to inform their employees to stop suggesting I speak with dad's buddy. He cannot tell me anything different from the facility.
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Fed up, just read ur responses. I think your fathers stroke caused some cognitive decline. The facility deserves to be paid and if the financial POA is immediate the bar buddy can write a check.
Burnt has a good point considering the facility going for guardianship. Notgoodenough has a point too. Just call him and get it over with. Then u can tell the NP that you called and now u have done that...you are only going to worry about Mom. Any problems they have with Dad is between them, Dad and his POA. You no longer hold POA for Dad.
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Fedup45 May 2023
I never had POA. I think you're correct the stroke has affected him.

My dad online banks, I can guarantee it's set up for automatic withdrawal. Neither here nor there.

Dad's buddy can't have POA for mom, she got diagnosed years ago. She couldn't have signed anything for him.

I get calls informing me of my mom condition. Her condition is all I care about.

I just don't know why NP is throwing it out there to discuss mom condition with him. NP literally said he knows nothing about POAs, just that dad's buddy said he's dad's POA.

NP isn't forcing me to call...he just throws it occasionally into text messages and ticks me off lol
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So much going on and alot of responses. Because I have recently dealt with hospice for my late mother I would ask if you could have tunnel vision right now and communicate about her needs specific to pain she certainly must be experiencing as well as her needs for care. Hospice was so wonderful for me and my mother the past 5 months. They were so helpful at the end which came on a little faster than we were expecting.

I certainly am sorry for all you are experiencing with your father. Perhaps if your focus could be on your mother in whatever capacity that entails you could free yourself somewhat from all the negativity.
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Fedup45 May 2023
I think that's it, just focus on mom. Dad and buddy can do whatever they want with each other.
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FedUp, if you think this pal of dad's is looking to muscle in on care decisions for mom, or if you think the facility is trying to somehow use POA to get guardianship for her, then wouldn't it be better to speak to this friend of dad's? Forewarned is forearmed and all that? Once you get that information from this guy and ensure that dad's choice of POA will not affect mom's care one iota, then you can make the decision to remove yourself from anything to do with dad and his POA.

As I said, speaking with him doesn't obligate you to anything. And rather than wonder endlessly what this is about and worry endlessly about your mom's care you might get some answers and at least put your mind at ease about mom.
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Fedup45 May 2023
It turns my stomach...I get such anxiety thinking about it.

Maybe I'll just ignore it 🤣. Just pay attention to mom. Dad and buddy can do whatever they want. Ignorance is bliss.
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I'm trying to figure out what is going on.

Are the grandkids who will get an inheritance your children? Must be, as you are an only child, correct? You don't care about the money for yourself, but you do (or do not?) care about money for your children?

How far away are you from your parents? Have you visited your mother? If you visit her regularly, you must be able to get information about her?

Does the bar buddy POA visit your father? I take it you don't care about your father, but only your mother, correct?

For some reason, your father is punishing you (you used the term "punish") by making his bar buddy friend POA (and maybe executor of the will, too?). Your father appears to want to cut you completely out of everything including any sort of financial AND medical decisionmaking.
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Fedup45 May 2023
I have 1. My brother who passed away has a daughter also.

Money has strings. My dad's a narcissist. I'd rather him use it for his care.

They're not far. I visit. I have access to my mother's medical information. I was there twice last week. We'll be going on mother's day. The POA is retired, he visits my dad. He has a lot of free time.

My father is a cruel man. We've had problems for years. I love my father. I don't like him.

He is definitely punishing me. He treats me like I'm 10. I should follow his orders, do as he's says without an opinion. He wanted me to handle all medical...to be at his beck and call. I have a little one and obligations. I'm not getting child care (I don't have anyone for that anyway) so that I can take them both to all their appointments (numerous specialists) my dad schedules when I'm supposed to pick up my kid. I'm not cleaning crap and doing laundry to be told I'm not doing enough. I'm not being cursed at because I'm not jumping when he tells me to jump. All that and I should smile while thanking him for my existence.

He doesn't think my child should take precedence over his needs. He doesn't think my mom's cancer and impending death supercede his needs. His comments last week were "what about me? And his buddy "does everything he says without argument ". 🤷🏻‍♀️
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Hmmm. I wonder if the facility is preparing to file for emergency guardianship of mom.
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BurntCaregiver May 2023
That's exactly what I've been saying, Barb. The facility is going to petition for conservatorship on the down-low.
This is what happened with my father. The NH tried to be slick. I was ready for it because I communicated with the probate court twice a week to check the names on the docket.
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I have not read all the replies but I did read Barbs. Your Dads POA has nothing to do with Moms care. Dad cannot assign his bar friend as Moms POA. Only she can do it and she is not competent to do that. I think the facility staff need someone to explain to them what POA means. This buddy cannot make decisions for Moms care. Actually, if Dad does not have POA for Mom, he really has no control if someone questions his decisions. If he has POA for Mom, he can't transfer the responsibility to his buddy.

There is immediate POA which is in effect as soon as Dad signed the paper. Springing POA needs a doctor or more to say the principle is no longer competent to make informed decisions.

I would talk to the Administrator and ask that he/she request a copy of the POA to establish that its in effect. Also explain, if there is a POA and it is in effect, its for Dad not Mom so this buddy has no say in Moms care. He is not her POA. If they don't still seem to understand this, tell them to have their facility lawyer explain it to them.
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Fedup45 May 2023
This is it! Exactly it! There's zero necessity for me to talk to possible POA, because mom couldn't sign anything.

I think the whole thing is spousal as far as treatment.

In text I told the nurse practitioner if there's a medical POA they should have a copy.

That's why my feathers are ruffled at the suggestion that I speak about mom's care with dad's buddy. He should have zero input and stay in his lane...at the bar where my dad found him.🤣

Nurse practitioner said he was unfamiliar with POAs...I think speaking out of turn.
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Maybe you should consider talking to this person and finding out what is what if you can’t get any information out of your dad..Put in your brain , it’s just business… at least you could put that at rest…
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Fedup45 May 2023
I could. I don't care about his money.

I feel like the hell a few of my dad's friends put us through when my dad had the stroke and we were left with zero guidance from my dad regarding my mom is enough contact for a lifetime. Especially, when I begged him to hire an aide to help out. Two months later he allowed it. The week before he came home.

He kept secrets regarding the severity of her dementia. He never told us of her incontinence, etc. he actually said the neurologist said she doesn't have dementia. I took her last June, he said yes she has dementia. Alzheimer's and possibly vascular.

She couldn't use a microwave, pooped all over the house, wouldn't shower, took my dad's meds and she was allergic to two of them, couldn't use the remote control, chronic uti's, would forget to eat.

I've never seen so many "friends" jump into a family scenario without knowing basic medical history. They were giving her cigarettes, wine, telling her to erase the white board with her appointments. That she's fine. It was a complete hot mess.

The director told me last week that the supposed "POA" told her my mom was fine and moving about before she went into the rehab a few months ago. That's a complete fabrication. She had a host of issues and was basically wheelchair bound.

Mom had mini strokes, vascular disease, COPD, nodes and nodules in her lungs, bypass surgery in her leg, two carotid artery surgeries, high blood pressure, diabetes, diverticulitis...which lead to a colostomy bag. The most recent before the rehab were three broken bones on top of her foot. The live in aide and my dad wouldn't allow me to bring her to the ER. I had to listen to the aide. They finally allowed it on a Saturday. But I couldn't get her into an orthopedic until Tuesday. She went an entire week with broken bones.

I said in another comment my dad can take his money and ride off into the sunset on his scooter...I really feel that way.

I just want to know about my mom's medical situation. As long as I have access to that (which I do) I have no need for his buddy.
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I don't know, I guess I have a different mind-set, but if the people at the facility that were taking care of my parents were strongly urging me to speak with someone, I think that I, personally, would reach out and speak with that person. I would want to know what was up, and why the facility was even involving themselves in this situation. I would think these facilities wouldn't concern themselves too much over financial POA so long as they're getting paid. I'm sure they have seen their fair share of family discord, and probably try to stay as far out of it as possible. That they're urging you to call this person - which might very well ramp up an already difficult family dynamic, potentially making *their* job more difficult is sort of a red flag in my opinion.

You know, calling this person doesn't obligate you to do anything. It doesn't mean you have to maintain a relationship with this person, or even talk to him beyond telling him you're done with the entire situation. If you can really "walk away" without any sort of regrets later on, then I guess follow your instincts and do nothing...but since you're here asking this question and justifying not calling this man, it seems to me like you're not sure if this decision is the right thing.

Anyway, that's my personal opinion...absolutely no judgement on my part if you choose not to take it to heart. I wish you peace no matter what you decide and offer you my sympathies on your mom. Good luck.
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Fedup45 May 2023
I hear you. If the "POA" feels the need to contact me he can. He hasn't.

Zero contact. I'm not concerned with the financial. Only my mom's medical. I personally feel he shouldn't be putting his two sense in regarding my mom. He's nothing to her. She was never able (for years)to sign a POA, so he's not hers.

He showed up when my dad had the stroke. Never a holiday, birthday, medical episode for mom. He knows nothing of her medical history. 🤷🏻‍♀️
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"I wanted medical POA over my mom, my dad refused."

That's not for Dad to decide. Mom decides who she wants as POA. But as you said, now it's too late. Mom can't sign POA anymore. She's mentally incapable.

Summary:
Your Mom has no POA (health or financial).
Your Dad has financial POA (buddy).

I think there are several hypotheses:
1. Your Dad is confused, unaware of what he actually signed. In that case, you can't trust any of the details he says.
2. Your Dad isn't confused at all, but he lies to you OP about the details.
3. Your Dad isn't intentionally getting things confused; he's starting to have dementia.

Anyway, I think it's better you contact the buddy, see what's going on.
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Fedup45 May 2023
I think it's #2 lol
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No, you should not reach out to the nursing home director. You are not responsible to get the bills paid anymore because you're not the POA. Consider this a blessing.


Your father (if you will pardon me for saying so) is an old fool to think that by making his drinking buddy POA that it will somehow protect their assets for the grandkids.

It won't. The drinking buddy is probably ripping him off and thats why he doesn't argue about anything.

How were you paying the bills when you had the financial POA? Are your parents independently wealthy and can easily afford to pay cash every month for both of them to live in the care facilty?
Or do they have a spectacular LTC insurance policy?
It's one or the other for how their bill gets paid. If they don't have either then Medicaid is paying so there isn't any inheritance to preserve for grandkids or anyone else.

If I were you I would have no contact with your father. He treats you like garbage and clearly has no respect whatsoever for you. So when the whole thing goes belly up don't clean up the mess he's made or put out his fires.
It isn't your responsibility anymore.
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Fedup45 May 2023
I was never POA. I wanted medical POA over my mom, my dad refused. He said talking about it was a jinx on him. He never talked about it again.

When my dad was in rehab at the time of his stroke he gave me is passwords for his online bank pay and atm card. I kept impeccable receipts for him. When he returned home, he assumed his responsibility back. He's obsessed with his bank account. I guess that's a good thing.
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How can you have a POA "just for the grandkids inheritance". Once there is an inheritance the POA is no longer valid. I assume he is executor of the Will but I question the choice if he doesn't even understand the terminology.
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ventingisback May 2023
Exactly.

OP, maybe your Dad is very confused about what exactly he signed.
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"It's possible he's executor, but the specific phrase used by the AL is POA. Dad said specifically for grandkids' inheritance. But then again...maybe to help take care of my dad's condo, pay its taxes and other bills."

1.
If buddy is executor, it's not ONLY for the grandkids' inheritance. In a will, you can't have one executor for X assets, another executor for Y assets. You can only have ONE executor who executes the whole will.

2.
If buddy is authorized to help pay taxes, bills, he indeed has a financial POA with full access to money. Your Dad must go to the bank with buddy, to fill in the bank's additional, required POA papers. Maybe your Dad already did it.

3.
The facility keeps telling you to contact the POA, obviously for some important reason. You don't want to speak to the buddy. I think you better talk to the buddy.
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Fedup45 May 2023
Maybe dad rewrote his will...I'm an only child, maybe he wrote me out. In my opinion he could take his money and ride off into the sunset on his scooter.

If that's the case it only took a few months for that to happen.

I feel as long as I have access to my mom's medical updates from staff, which I do, then I have zero need to take to his buddy.

The minute his buddy pisses him off, he be pushed aside too. 🤷🏻‍♀️

When he found the al facility, he didn't tell us until 3 days before the move. He had a friend that visited almost every morning with coffee and donuts, he didn't know until the morning of. The cops were dispatched to my house a few weeks ago, because another friend called for a well check. My dad wasn't returning calls, so he/she called the police. We bought the house from them Sept 2021...he didn't change his address. So the cops came to last address on record(license). My dad thought it was funny.
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Who is POA (medical and financial) for mom?

Isn't that what counts here?

Is it possible that the NP is trying to nudge you in the direction of contacting the POA because he knows/suspects that Dad has dementia/mental health challenges?
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Fedup45 May 2023
The facility keeps telling me to talk with my father's friend. I don't know him. He's not family. His input is irrelevant. Why should they keep insisting I speak with him?

Mom doesn't have a POA. She can't sign anything for POA.
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On re-reading again, I believe it was your dad who was in rehab, which makes sense since he had the stroke. Is this correct? It also makes a little more sense if he was not concerned about your mother while *he* was in rehab from the stroke: thought processes and emotions can be way off after a stroke.
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Fedup45 May 2023
Yes, dad had a stroke. When my husband spoke withy father last week and my husband said we're concerned about mom, my dad said "what about me?". My husband said mom is worse off than you right now. You're ok. Mom isn't. My father kept insisting he's not better off than my mom who has dementia and a recent cancer diagnosis.

I can't even.
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The POA info is confusing. You indicate your father's buddy is his POA, but that the POA isn't in effect? And you don't know with certainty what kind of POA the buddy has, if any? The part about the POA's being for your father's grandchildren's inheritance doesn't make sense, either. Do you think this means that the buddy is intended by tour father to be the executor of his will? A POA for an inheritance that has not yet occurred doesn't make sense. Or is the buddy intended to be your dad's durable POA for financial matters? And why and when was your mother in rehab? Please fill in so your story is more coherent. I realize you asked a specific question, but the reason you might reach out to the director is not clear to me. Is it to try to get the other staff off your back about your speaking with your dad's (possibly) POA buddy?
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Fedup45 May 2023
It's possible he's executor, but the specific phrase used by the al is POA. Dad said specifically for grandkids inheritance. But then again...maybe to help take care of my dad's condo, pay it's taxes and other bills. His buddy's wife is a realtor, but it has yet to be put up on the market. I personally feel my dad wants to return to it.

My mom was in rehab a few months ago. They were living independently with a live in nurse for almost 6 months. My mom was in pain, I kept saying she needed to go to the ER. The hospital released her to a rehab facility, because she was a major fall risk, could barely walk and in severe pain. Meanwhile, the rehab said she can't return home, so my dad found an assisted living with memory care. Mom went straight to the al after a month and a half to 2 months at the rehab. She had zero improvement.

Yes, I don't want to speak with my dad's buddy at all. I'm not exactly sure why they keep insisting. I'm not sure who I contact to say this guy is not someone I want to be in contact with. So far two employees at the al mentioned him. 🤷🏻‍♀️
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Are you able to detach from the “feeling” part of taking care of both of them and move directly to “provide humane physical care with as little emotional connection as possible”?

It can be done, and whether you can do it gradually or abruptly, it can be a useful mental health tool for you.

Do you know as a fact that your father has legal jurisdiction over your mother? If not, you may be able to assume or at least partially establish legal control for her care. Find out.

A legal consult to find out where everyone is legally in your father’s game might be good for you. Look for a geriatric or family practice lawyer.

See if you can make a connection with an Adult Protective Services office in your parents’ area. They may be able to make suggestions for local types of assistance for untangling family situations like yours.

Please know that although it feels like it, you are not alone in your feelings about your situation.

You are smart and caring, and you need to be vigilant in taking good care of yourself, to do the best possible for your mother’s care.

Thinking about you……..
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Fedup45 May 2023
I'm just visiting my mom at this point at the nursing home. My dad knows exactly which buttons to push. He knows how to upset me.

She's in hospice and getting very good care. Legally there isn't paperwork regarding my dad over my mom. They're honoring spouses wishes at the nursing home. My dad's buddy couldn't have my mom sign anything with her diagnosis.
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Are you sure the financial POA isn't effective already? Not all POAs are written in the same way, and I guess you haven't seen a copy of that POA, you haven't read it. Some POAs are immediately effective, the moment the principal (your Dad) signed it.
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Fedup45 May 2023
My father would never relinquish control. He said it's specifically for the grandkids inheritance. He said he can't access his money. I told my dad that his friend keeps mentioning he's POA at the facility. My dad said he's not. I said how do you think I found out about the POA 🤣. I said the POA can't go into effect unless he was proven mentally incapable of taking care of his own stuff. He said he knows, the lawyer explained it.

It wouldn't be smart to have the same individual be a medical and financial POA either.

The nurse practitioner used the POA term liberally and didn't seem to know the difference between medical vs financial.

He said my dad's buddy just keeps saying he's POA.
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