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My sibling and I have always shared POA responsibility for mom, both financial and health care. Mom lived with me for almost two years, and now she has been with my sibling for almost one year. My sibling informed me she is creating a trust for mom’s estate (with attorney who is personal friend) and I’m to be eliminated as POA. It will be solely my sibling as POA for the trust. When I pushed back and said that I was very hurt and upset, she got extremely angry with me. Mom is really unable to make any decisions at this point and she has not asked for the trust to be created, it’s all my sibling. Mom will do anything she is asked to do and sign anything. To me, this is borderline financial elder abuse. Can you please offer advice to me? Thank You

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You need legal advice from a certified elder law attorney because rules about trusts and PoA and competence can differ by state AND no one on this site is an attorney.

From my own persona knowledge and experience, one PoA cannot remove another PoA without the principle (in this case, your mom) being competent and driving the decision. "Competent" is a sticky term, because a person can have a fair amount of memory loss and still be assessed as competent. It is about comprehension and not retention.

If the family friend attorney is knowingly helping to create a trust for someone who has a medical diagnosis of dementia they could be dis-barred. This is why you need your own attorney, if your understanding of the situation is accurate. And, one individual (your sister) cannot create a trust for someone else (your mom) with her assets and resources. My husband and I have a trust and it can be complicated. If we don't have medical diagnosis of incapacity, then the attorney can do their own assessment for comprehension.

Do you know for a fact that your mother has a medical diagnosis of dementia? If she doesn't but her cognition is as bad as you say, then hire an attorney.
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Hannah16 Jul 2022
Thank you for your reply. My mother was diagnosed with mild to medium cognitive impairment when she was with me. This diagnosis was more than two years ago now. The attorney (friend) deemed my mother capable of signing the documents but barely and this was several months ago now that he met with her. I was comfortable with my sibling creating the trust for mother but when she hit me up with the fact that she wants me eliminated as joint POA I felt sick to my stomach.
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If your mom is not cognizant she can not make any changes. And she can not sign any documents.
I would consult an Elder Care Attorney. Possibly the attorney that was seen for the first documents. Or get another.
I am sure there will be a couple other members that will respond with much more detailed responses.
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Trusts do not have a POA. And only a grantor (your Mom) can create a trust unless your POA document stipulates that a Trust can be created. Trusts are managed by a Trustee.
Because it is unclear what is going on here, I would hesitate to give any advice other than to see an attorney now for yourself, to comb out how things ARE NOW, and how they might change.
It is unusual, whether POA or Trustee, to have TWO Serving equally at once. Usually it is one serving, and the other the "second" in case needed.
You need an attorney to iron out what is happening now, and what powers the sibling has. Take all current documents with you.
Mom cannot sign Trust documents if she is incompetent. A competent attorney creating a Trust for her will want to see and examine her verbally.
If she is competent she can sign anything she wishes to, whether another suggests it or not.
See an attorney.
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Borderline nothin'! This is straight up financial abuse of a vulnerable senior and it is criminal for an attorney to create a trust when they know the trustor is not capable of understanding what is happening.

I would file a complaint with the BAR association against this attorney. They need to be stopped from exploiting a vulnerable senior in the name of friendship.

I would schedule some free consultations with attorneys and find out how to protect your mom. Start with a CELA and ask them if this is in their realm of practice, if not, ask for referrals and what type of attorney you need.

Your sister CAN NOT remove you from POA. Only you or mom can change that fact.
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I would contact and attorney well versed in elder-law. I'm pretty sure your sister is taking advantage of a person who can no longer make her own decisions.

This is sad, to have families torn apart by stuff like this--yet it goes on all the time. It seems that talking to mom is out of the question--right?

You best arm yourself with a lawyer.

A person cannot take POA away from someone and they can't make themselves POA. Only the 'intended' party. And if she's not able to make decisions--your sister's attorney is complicit in fraud. Perhaps they don't KNOW that mom isn't able to make her own decisions.

We DO have 2 poa's serving together. One YB is Medical and the other is financial. They work together, I guess. (I'm just a girl and you know how stupid we girls are.)
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POAs have nothing to do with trusts, so your sister is blowing smoke on that one.

As others have said, get your own attorney, and if you can find out who your sister is using, you can contact him to let him know your mother has been diagnosed with cognitive impairment and is not competent to make legal decisions. He can sit with that and decide if his law license is worth the fee he'll get for setting up a trust that isn't valid.
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Someone, either the writer or the sister, doesn't understand Power of Attorney vs Executor.

That said, neither a PoA nor a will/trust can be altered after a person is mentally incompetent to legally sign it. As has been said by others, an attorney who is doing this work is in violation of their law license.

That said, I have to wonder if the writer really understands the terminology and legality. It may be that "POA" was used as a term between siblings without any signed document. It may also be that the mother is now incompetent and needs a conservatorship. THAT would be a legal area in which the sibling's attorney can work.

Step 1: ensure you know the language and law.

Step 2: pull out the legal paperwork that your mom has signed, and the medical diagnoses your mom has which indicates her mental competence.

Step 3 and 4: Contact your siblings attorney to notify them of your documentation and give them your attorney's name and contact information.

Step 5: draft your extemporaneous notes and have no further contact with your sibling on this topic.
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Very good advice here, and I'm going to repeat it. Contact an attorney.
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My sibling did the same thing but he had the attorney amend the original trust to benefit himself 100%.

He called the attorney, told them what he wanted done & drove my mom to the lawyer’s office. Twice my mom with cognitive impairment wouldn’t sign but sibling kept harassing her until months later when she was released from the hospital she signed it.

The lawyer stated that she knew her name, date of birth, etc……..no competency tests were given.

Don’t wait…….hire a lawyer immediately! Best of luck to you.
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Call the attorney and give him a little 'warning' that mom is not really able to make legal decisions like that. In fact, put it in writing - send certified letter with return receipt requested so atty can't say your warning did not happen. You might even add a sentence in there to ask if the friendship between him and your sis could create any conflicts of interest down the road? Just to give him something to think about.

He may tell sis to leave poa as is. You could also ask atty, in the letter, that you would like him to explain to you why a trust is being set up and how it will be used.

Also, for the time being, you ARE a POA. Do you know an elder atty that you could consult with? Maybe he could write the letter for you and get a little transparency on the whole matter.
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1. I am going to assume that your mother was competent when she arranged for drafting of the financial POA.
2. I also will assume that you and your sister are co-POA agents for durable medical and financial powers of attorney.
3. You indicate that your mother is no longer competent to manage her financial affairs. Therefore, your sister will most likely have to take you to court to prove that you are not fit to serve as her co-POA agent as your mother is no longer able to.
4. If you and your sister are co-agents, state law and/or the POA document usually dictate how to resolve disagreements between you.
5. You should look at the POA document, which describes the powers granted to you and your sister. Often, the POA document must expressly state that the agents have the power to create a trust. Absent that, the POA might not have that power.
6. There is no such thing as a POA for a trust. There must be a trustee. A POA agent does not automatically take on the role of trustee. And your sister may be able to create a trust, but the trust must be in your mother's best interests.
7. You should have access to the terms of the trust your sister is setting up. If you think that the trust is not in your mother's best interests, you will have to engage an attorney. A letter written by an attorney to your sister stating the law in your mother's state may have an effect on her.
Suggestions, not legal advice.
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Your mother is not living in a residential facility and is legally competent. Neither you nor your sister can take over her finances as POA unless she is clearly incapacitated. Your sister could easily talk her into creating a trust which may or may not be in her best interest. Just stating that your mother is not capable of taking care of her own affairs doesn’t make it so from illegal perspective. Your sister could be creating the trust in order to make your mother eligible for Medicaid funded nursing home care. This would protect her assets so that both of you could benefit financially when she dies. I assume your sister or your mother is also paying the legal costs of establishing the trust.

Your first step should be to enable a constructive atmosphere for your sister to explain to you why she is doing what she’s doing. If your mother has substantial resources, this might be a good idea for both of you. Creating a Trust does not mean that she is necessarily going to be the sole beneficiary upon your mothers demise.

Try to work with your sister and see what you can come up with. In the meantime, hire an elder attorney you can consult with but don’t get into a big expensive legal proceeding unless it’s obvious that you must do so because your sister is not acting in good faith.
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Caregiverstress Jul 2022
Creating a trust will not necessarily make her eligible for Medicaid funded nursing home care. There is a 5 year look back. Trusts are for asset protection and tax benefits. If the mother has a dementia dx, even if she is living at home, legally she can’t enter a legal contract. That time has passed. My fathers attorney has said once the diagnosis happens, that’s it. No changes can be made to existing trusts, no wills can be created or altered, pretty much everything is frozen at that point. This is why his attorney told me to make sure I had everything in place before the dx letter was part of his medical records. Otherwise I would have to take it to court to get guardianship. A lengthy and very expensive process.
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contact An attorney. I don’t know if it’s elder abuse or an attempt to defraud mom’s beneficiaries.
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If mom can not make that decision, then that can not happen by LAW. If a Trust is bring drawn up, someone has to be the Trustee. You should get an Elder Attorney right now to look into this. The lawyer will certainly be disbarred if this paperwork is done. Your Mom has to sign it. You should let your sister know that you will pursue legal action against both of them. Also, it costs a lot more to prepare a Trust. Does mom have a lot of money and/or property?
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When you say the attorney working on this is a “friend” do you mean friend of the family, friend of Mom’s or friend of your sister? Is this the same attorney who se up the POA’s? Given that you and your sister are co-POA it seems reasonable to me that asking for a meeting with the three or even four (Mom included) so that this can all be explained to you would be as important to the attorney as anyone. It’s in his or her best interest to have everyone on board too. My mom is also very capable of appearing competent but anyone that knows her or spends enough time with her knows she isn’t so it wouldn’t be difficult to take her to an attorney and have them deem her competent especially if performing some legal service that is in her best interest and seems to make sense on the surface, it would be harder if it’s an attorney who knows her well and knows her family and who also set up her original affairs when she was compleatly competent. Even when she is rising to the occasion as she does for every one but us it seems!

A meeting with the attorney so you can all get on the same page is where I would start before feeling or expressing suspicion. It may just as easily be that what is happening is in your mothers best interest and simply not being explained well to you or understood well enough by you or your sister. If after this meeting you are still feeling uneasy about it all then I would make the move to consult another knowledgeable attorney, we are trained to simply trust our own attorney, that every attorney is working with the same knowledge and view but getting a second opinion from an attorney is the same as getting a second opinion from a doctor. You and your sister have worked together to this point so please be careful about letting misunderstanding or I’ll advised legalities change that and estrange you at all, you will be needing each other more in the days and years to come. This looks nefarious on the surface if your life experiences have taught you to see things that way but it can just as easily look an be totally innocent, keep your guard up for both and get your facts before taking action you can’t take back.
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It's illegal to have your Mom sign a new POA if she is mentally incompetent.
There are good reasons to set up a trust to protect your Mom's assets, so it's understandable your sister would want to do so. If your mother didn't have a durable POA, it's crucial to have one now. That makes sense. So the missing link is why is she eliminating you? Who would be the back-up if your sister could not act? Are you named in the Trust? Get that attorney's contact info. You should be present at the signing. Get to the bottom of it, calmly and without emotion - it's your right as a daughter and as current POA. Try to resolve this with your sister before she takes any further action.
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Caregiverstress Jul 2022
I don’t think the sister can set up a trust with the mother’s assets. The mother would have had to do this while she was mentally competent. Once the sisters inherit they can set up their own trusts.
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Get your own lawyer who deals with elder care, pronto! This is why one should NEVER have more than 1 primary POA. If your mother is not mentally stable to give consent, the court should decide. Your sister's anger is defensive. I highly doubt her actions are being done for anything but her personal benefit, or you would have been included at the start. If there are enough assets for an estate trust, there is the root of the issue. Act now!
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Why is your sister doing tis? And what makes her think she can?
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Davenport Jul 2022
Hi, Isabel. Why is she doing it and what makes her think she can? Here's why and how: My 1.5 y/older sister did this with my mom, while I was gone for a weekend and sis was 'spelling me' as our mom's primary (and live-in, due to circumstances) caretaker. Sis was 200 miles away and rarely visited or inquired about mom. My mom 'went along with', as her first daughter could do no wrong. Sis wrongly thought I was too 'high strung' and I had begun to drink wine every evening. Well, I was the 7/24 caretaker, left for 2 hours each morning to attend AA, did all the grocery shopping, driving to appointments, called 911 more than six times at 0-dark:30 and followed ambulances to ER, the whole thing. Not incoherently or unreliably intoxicated to the point of being unable to act or make sound decisions, ever. I knew older sis had no clue what was involved in the daily/hourly caretaking, or how uninformed and mistaken her opinions were. Classic absent-but-critical relative. Anyway, I felt I had no legal defense because I was, in fact, drinking wine in the evening, so I said nothing when I found out much later that she had taken my mom to meet with an attorney and sign papers declaring her the sole executor. Because sis did this behind my back, I don't trust older sis to not do shenanigans, even though she absolutely doesn't need money or mom's antiques or the valuable house. I wish I could say the same (nothing I'd like better than to walk away), but I'm rapidly outliving my once-sufficient IRA (due to forced early retirement and divorce after 30 years from the major breadwinner). I cannot afford to pay an attorney to look into this. I understand too well the power of money and emotional manipulation. : (
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The only person who can remove you as POA is your mother or yourself. Your sister can’t legally do this and her attorney should know this, and most likely does. This is shady AF and alarm bells should be going off. And if your mother has been dx with dementia she legally can’t make any changes, the attorney knows this too. That time has passed. If you have a dx letter from a doctor stating she has dementia and is not capable of making financial decisions, send it by certified return receipt mail to the attorney. That should put an end to it. My father has a trust in place and I am his POA and executor. As soon as I had a letter of dx I called my father’s attorney and told him in confidentiality what was going on. I wanted to make sure that if my father wandered into his office to attempt any bad financial moves or fall victim to fraud the attorney would be aware. He said given his dx he would have to tell my father that he could not make any changes to his trust at this time.
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You said the lawyer was a personal friend. Get one of your own. Lawyers don't care much for one of their own to be shady. Might get interesting, but you can win. She can't get mom to sign anything without you present (with your name on it). Shady. Get a lawyer quick.
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Is it legal for my sibling to remove me as POA?
No, but the principal, your mom, can (be persuaded).

Three lawyers may deem a person competent to sign a document while 3 others wouldn't.

Is your mom on dementia meds? Call her physician’s office and ask to get a copy of her diagnosis with a statement that your mom has not been mentally competent since_Date_. My husband’s neurologist told me he’d give me a statement saying that he is incompetent, maybe you mom’s doctor will too.

Does your sister have any emails from you that may show your incompetence, ability to manage finances, or willingness to care for mom having nothing to do with your mental state and that may be used against you? Does your sister have emailed statements made innocently by you and simply between trusting sisters that mom is killing you and that you are, (understandably), on the brink, or you hate getting her taxes done, or that you let mom stay all day with soup poured down her dress for any reason. I’m just indicating that if you sibling is playing dirty pool, think.

Is you sister doing a good job caring for your mom? What exactly did your sister state in her response to you when you said that your feelings were hurt? Were those statements valid, feelings be danged? Btw, from now on jettison feelings. No time to be a girl. This is business.

Do you really want the responsibility to care for mom. Are you just hurt? Is there a lot of money involved? Is it the principle of the matter that has you in a knot?

My brother took my (demented) father to a lawyer, had a 20 year old will updated. He also replaced our very kind, and just, older sister as POA. Brother even convinced our father, (and lawyer was accommodating), to included his wife in the will. All this almost a year before my father died. Dad fell apart after mom died 3 years before. Brother syphoned money from father’s bank account and put his name on the safety deposit box. After dad died what was left, the sale of the co-op, was divided three ways.

Be happy that you were forewarned. She could’ve done this without telling you. 

Lawyer up.
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AlvaDeer Jul 2022
I believe, Michelle, she can't call the doctor and request or discuss anything, because she is no longer POA.
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Your sister’s defensiveness and anger at you for questioning this is the big tell. Sure it would’ve been nice to have been able to sit down and work it out amicably. But it doesn’t sound like she’s interested in that because she wants to take control. As others suggested I think you should in writing point out to her and the lawyer that your mothers past diagnosis makes any action questionable and request that any action taken that removed you be rescinded immediately. And you should quietly do some research and find an elder care lawyer to assist you if it comes to that.

Lawyers police their own profession and it is very rare for any to be disbarred or even to have a complaint be acted upon. Don’t rely on that happening if the attorney your sister engaged is acting unethically.

Good luck!
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Call adult protective services. This is not the right thing for her to be doing.
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In addition to immediately hiring a skilled elder law attorney, document absolutely everything - date, time, who you talked to, subject, detailed conversation notes, phone number you called and who answered the phone, etc.
This lesson-learned is from my own extremely painful experience. Then, after writing your own personal notes, I suggest following up the phone conversation with an email to the person summarizing what the conversation was. BCC yourself and file it in your email folder as proof of date and time and conversation subject. Otherwise, it can be a "he said, she said" claim by the other person, like "I never said that..." and deny everything. Even to your sister. However, discuss this with your new attorney and follow his/her advice, or ask advice about documenting.
In the previous state I lived in it was perfectly legal to record phone conversations. I never did that in the sense that I had an apparatus attached to the phone, but I did put the phone call on speaker phone and had my husband silently listen. Ask your attorney before doing any recording because each state has its own laws about that.
Regardless whatever your sister is trying to do (and her "friend the attorney") there are laws that govern these things but it takes someone to enact the laws, and that person is you and your elder law attorney that you are going to hire asap. Hang in there, be firm, be clear, stand strong. You can do this because you can do this for your mom. Peace.
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Get a lawyer. My sibling pulled shenanigans. I won't go into what it was, but my lawyer said why didn't you get in touch with me sooner. I could have done something. Don't wait get a lawyer asap!! GO to a few if you have to. She is telling you to your face she is up to no good. Could get your mom to sign anything. Go now before its to late. I speak from horrible experience.
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Get a lawyer. My sibling pulled shenanigans. I won't go into what it was, but my lawyer said why didn't you get in touch with me sooner. I could have done something. Don't wait get a lawyer asap!! GO to a few if you have to. She is telling you to your face she is up to no good. Could get your mom to sign anything. Go now before its to late. I speak from horrible experience.
See if you can text sister and get her to say that again.
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Just as an aside and not meant to respond to your dilemma, your sister as financial POA agent may be able to set up a trust for your mother if the jurisdiction in which your mother resides allows it or if the POA document itself grants the power to create a trust. There are many types of trusts, but for purposes here let's assume this would be a revocable living trust.

Your sister would be what is called the grantor and your mother would be the sole beneficiary. Your sister can then transfer your mother's assets into the trust with herself or another reliable person as trustee. As financial POA agent and trustee, your sister has a legal fiduciary to act only in your mother's best interests. As trustee, she also has additional duties such as following the prudent investment rule.

A trust must have a purpose and any purpose it has must be in your mother's best interests. For instance, the trust would distribute assets for your mother's benefit during her lifetime. It also must be the best instrument to manage her financial affairs.

Once she dies, the purpose of the trust ends and the trust would terminate. Of course, the POA document could allow for beneficiaries other than your mother but this must be expressly stated in the POA document created and signed while she was competent. I can see problems if assets remain after her death and the POA fails to address this eventuality.

In some states, trusts make sense, but in general most people do not need them. Taxes still need to be paid and creditors can still make claims. Trusts can be expensive to set up and administrate. And adding and removing assets require re-titling. Selling real estate out of a trust can be very complicated.

Alternatively, your sister is free to set up a trust naming your mother as beneficiary and transfer her own assets into the trust. She would still owe your mother as beneficiary the fiduciary duty of loyalty but she would be free to set her own terms and even include as many other beneficiaries as she likes.

One last thing. Rules vary by state, but usually co-POAs must agree on use of granted powers. In such a case, you would have to agree to your sister's attempt to create a trust funded with your mother's assets, and she could not do so if you disagree.

One more last thing, unless you have already, hire a trust and estate attorney.

Suggestions, not legal advice.
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TouchMatters Jul 2022
Your information is very useful, however, this person stated:

'My sibling and I have always shared POA responsibility for mom, both financial and health care."

It all depends on the legal authority and how and who is it granted to when these documents were written up.
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Hannah16: Seek the services of an elder law attorney.
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Call Elder Attorney, You shouldnt be taken off unless to make that decision.
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Sounds like its past bordering on financial elder abuse.

Lawyer up
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