Is it normal she's so negative?

Do what CM says..go out on a date. If this man has hung on while you talk to mom who upsets you multiple times a day, he deserves to go out with his wife tonight. If there's an emergency, mom will call you. And perhaps you'll be too engaged to answer the he phone.

If it's a real emergency, she'll call 911. If it's not, it can wait til the morning. This is called setting boundaries.

Go out and eat supper with your husband and see a movie or go to a night club and dance. Basically, get out of the house and find something that you and your husband can do that will absorb you're attention.

Here's a wild idea just the two of you go out and have a good time on the town but spend the night in a nice hotel. In other words go out for a date. I think too many couples stop dating each other over time.

Thank goodness for all of you. I have not yet called her back. I did speak to my husband, and I told him everything I said. He is an incredibly kind and gentle man and he told me he was glad I told her what I did. That she was an adult who has behaved like this since he has known her for 20 years and that she needed to hear all of it. Then why do I still feel sick? (This is a great weight loss regimen--let me tell you!)
CMagnum--I go to counseling on Tuesday and I have to wait until then. The cost is prohibitive if I go more often, but now would indeed be a good time. Babalou--you are so right--I cannot have a conversation with my mother. There is no such think. It is continually walking on eggshells because I never know what to do or say--it is like walking on a tightrope that has hot spots! My mother lives independently. If she were in assisted living, somethings would be much easier--others might be harder, but at least I would know she had someone with her. Linda--you are so right. She will fight to the deth to maintain control and I must find balance and set boundaries. I am working really, really hard, you guys. I guess this is the most challenging part of my recovery. Not giving in to my inner child who wants desperately to have her approval and get that pat on the head. I do think I did not need to say as much as I did, but her coldness and complete disregard for my feelings just caught me at the wrong moment. She is so cold when she is like this. I remember my father who said to me shortly before he died, "She can be so cold...so cold." My poor dad--when he had ulcertive colitis, and my husband and I were visiting, she wanted to shame him or somethihng and asked in front of us, "Did you make in your pants again?" She was often so horrible to him.

Okay--this is scary and I do not know how it will end, but I can honeslty say that I have given my all--as much as I could, until I am literally losing myself. I cannot do this anymore. I wish I weren't so scared and I wish I knew what to do next. Do I call this evening? I always talk with her multiple times. She can call me 5-11 times per day. Do I go over there this evening and check on her? Do I not do anything and hope for the best? I am trying so hard, but I might weaken by later today. Thanks for hanging in there with me.

njny, this is a process you're going thru and taking a few steps backward is normal. No one will do this only taking steps forward - we're human and the situation is fluid, especially at the person you're setting boundaries with is in reactive mode.

Your mom's options are to see a doctor or just let things be, there's no magical Door #3. You suggested that she see a doctor, she refused and that's her choice. Often narc moms will bring up a problem, only shoot down the options for resolution of the problem because they don't actually want to solve it. They're mentioning it to elicit sympathy, guilt, whatever. cmag is on point about the counseling - often whatever personal info you divulge to your mom will become a way to zing you later.

Please try to fight the urge to call and say whatever you have to to make her nice for that moment. She's trying to get back the control she sees slipping from her as you start to find your balance and boundaries.

Do not call her back. She asked you a question and you gave her an honest answer. In normal relationships, that's called a conversation.

When you are engaged in a relationship in which you never, ever, ever get it right, say or do the right thing, it's time to 1. Stop being friends with the person, 2. Get a divorce or in the case of its being a parent or child 3. Set firm boundaries. Behave as if your mother is a normal human being and don't walk on eggshells.

Is there a nurse at mom's assisted living? If she hates going to the doctor, perhaps she can consult with the nurse.

njny1952,

"I never knew if I was supposed to be her -----"

I realize this is tough, but that's too much to worry about. So, try to just be yourself. She's not going to change and seeking to reason with her accomplishes about as much as spitting in the wind.

Do fight the urge to call her back. Also, there is no need for you to tell her anything more about your getting counseling. That and probably other things in your own life likely don't need to be told to her.

You have bigger roles in life to be about. I hope you will hang in there. When do you see your counselor next? Would your insurance allow you to see them more frequently? Sounds like you could use the extra support right now.

Okay--new day and I few big steps backwards but holding on. My mother called to tell me she was sad how her dog died (every day she hurts over this) and couldn't sleep and what an awful night she had. She also said she was peeing all night and thinks something is wrong. What do I think? Well, I promised her fairly recently I wouldn't ask her about going to the doctor every time she complained of an ailment, but there she was asking me what I thought. I also think something is going on so I suggested we go to the doctor. Well, she told me that I just upset her. I should just have calmed her down. Then I told her it was hard for me because I never knew if I was supposed to be her daughter (I told her I am hardly ever her daughter), her mother, her father, her friend, or her caregiver. I explained that it was a lot of pressure to always know exactly what she wanted me to say. I became a little sarcastic myself, and asked her if she wanted to give me the words to say to her when she was upset. The reason I did this was not just to be sarcastic, but because she has forever told me exactly what I should have said over and over again through the years. She would give me the exact words I should have used and berate me for not getting it right. Yesterday I was a wonderful daughter. Today I am horrible. I told her that I am in counseling for all kinds of things but of course she would never guess that the SOLE reason I am in counseling is because of her and my reaction to her. Please know, readers, that her behavior and our song and dance are not new--I have been afraid of her for decades--my whole life since I can remember.
So now I am fighting the urge to call her back and try and say whatever it takes to make her be nice to me again. I am always living in fear of her--that I will screw up and she reminds me constantly that she is old but I have everything going for me. I do not have everything going for me. I am suffering from a kind of emotional paralysis and it is a bad morning. BUT, so far I have not calleed her back and am hanging in there. I just cannot go on like this. At this rate I will die before she does. I could and would never be like this to my children. I was thinking I didn't have to lay down boundaries but here I am again. Detach, detach, detach. Jeweltone and many of you have inspired me. I am at a scary crossroad but hanging in there I just cannot face the rest of my life like it has been. I just cannot do it.

Hi Friends--

Just an update--I really am feeling good about the counselor. Doing lots of work on healing the child within. I am booked weekly with the counselor through December so I know there is much to do. I am learning more and more everyday and gaining more strength every day, remembering it is two steps forward, one step back. This morning she called and wanted to pick a fight over what she should do in an emergency. We have gone over this multiple times. This is not dementia--this is the same discussion we have had for years--she is always trying to prove that I am not there for her... Always doubting that I will be there. This must go back to her abandonment issues so I try to be patient. Her voice was that familiar challenging, sarcastic tone I have grown to recognize quickly and I am now rolling better with it. "Let me get this straight--if I have an emergency, you do not want me to call you first, right?" "No mom, you should call me first. If I do not answer then call 911 or push your button." "You want me to call you first?" "Yes, mom." "Oh, all right."

Dog update: she is going to receive a dog from a breeder after it has its litter in December. Sweet dog, very calm. I think it will be all right. Yes, I will help, but I am willing to help. If things do not work out, I will keep the dog or return it to its owner. I am also willing to do this. There is no pet therapy or pet-loan in the area, and she is allergic to cats--at least she thinks she is. I am grateful for the period of calm (related to dogs) from now until December. Thanks for all the ideas and advice. If this doesn't work out, I honestly think she will move into an independent or assisted living facility and that might be for the best in the long term, although she will hate the food, the people, the struture, the everything to begin with. Oh--such joyous events to look forward to! (I must have inherited a little sarcasm...) Have a great day!

Philis,

There are various values of subcultures and religious subcultures that have a very twisted view of people, children, spouses, selfishness what you do and do not talk about, and what it means to be an unselfish, helping person for others which so often is taken to a deadly extreme. A definition of selfishness that says that taking care of yourself is not as important as taking care of someone else, it's a set up for being walked on like a door mat. When folks isolate you by telling you to not tell anyone outside of your family about your life, you're being groomed for abuse. If someone says if mom or dad is not happy, then no one is happy, you are being told that your own happiness does not matter and you will never have your own happiness apart from them. When a parent says something like "I brought you into this world and I can take you out" you're dealing with a potentially harmful person at least emotionally harmful.

Some people's subculture grooming includes twisting of religious teaching for the parent's advantage that I've mentioned in another thread somewhere on AC.. Nowhere in the bible does it say you have to only take care of an elderly parent at home (your's or their's), give up your job, loose your marriage, leave your own home or in practically honor them in the name of the the bible's call to honor one's parent to the degree that you no longer honor an existing marriage or honoring ones own self care. There's not any religious teaching that says when your parent gets old and unhealthy that you leave your spouse and cleave unto your parent until death do you part! Some narcissistic and borderline parents seem to have a different view from what is actually in the Bible and actually said in wedding vows.

Self-denial does not mean denying or destroying the very unique self that God made us as. Our lives matter too! Lastly, if we don't find ways to have our own life before such a parent dies, we will find it very hard to have a life after they die because their voice will still be so strong in our lives for we had not started detaching from them earlier.

Take care!

My mom's neighbor got her a cat a few months ago, and that's going to be an issue. Adult Protective Services just ruled that my mom needs a guardian, so if she can't stay in her apartment the cat will need a new home. (Unless an assisted living apartment allows them ... somehow I think not.) Her neighbor has said she'd take it if my mom died, but my mom feuds with everyone after a few months.
I'd say instead of getting a new dog see if your mom could help at an animal shelter every week or two. If she could go in and just pet some animals and give them attention it'd do the animals and her some good, and then there's no worry about her having to walk or clean up after a dog, etc.

Thanks for these ideas. I don't know of anything like pet therapy in our area but I will check. Thanks, Sandwich.

Philis, you made many good points? Thank you.

NJNY1952 - I can't recall. Is your mother in a place where pet therapy comes through? That's a great option if you can find it. All the fun - none of the work and the animals are going to be calm and not freak out. You might be able to find someone who can bring a therapy dog to visit mom once a month or something. Why buy when you can borrow? :-)

"She also wants to check out more dogs and wanted me to call breeders."

I would say no to the dog. Why? Who is going to take the dog out? her? no. Who is going to pick up the poo when the dog goes poo/pee in her or someone else's house? Her? No. Who is going to wash the dog? Her? No. Who is going to go to the store to buy food for the dog? Her? no. Who is going to take care of the dog if she passes away? Her? obviously no.

"that is usually almost every time the thing you should ALWAYS be doing. "

Meaning the thing that when you lie down to go to sleep are saying to yourself "I was so stupid, why can't I just do this". That is the thing that usually contradicts what you are actually doing out of fear of being called unloving, but it is the exact thing you SHOULD be doing. WHY? Because YOUR life is just as legitimate as everyone else's life, you know those other lives you think are suffering, yea well wake up YOU are now suffering too, so WHO TAKES CARE OF YOU???? Only you can at this point usually since no one else is in your life anymore after going through these kinds of situations.

"How do I let go and NOT CARE SO MUCH? "

I am coming to figure it out that it is some of the twisted interpretations of cultural or spiritual morals we have learned or been taught and don't think there are exceptions or limits to those things. We are taught that selfishness is wrong, again another example of a moral which has limits and exceptions, if no one were selfish then no one would even work or eat or buy a tshirt for themselves. Deep down we are tormented by wrong interpretations of words like selfishness, love, caring, helping, etc. We think all these things have no conditions (a lie) and no limits (a lie) and no exceptions (a lie).

So in the end you will have to oppose the tormenting voices in your mind that constantly tell you that you are being bad and evil by setting limits to people and their behaviors. You will have to be ok with people cursing you and saying you are uncaring, unloving, selfish, greedy, etc. etc. You know what it is that is right, that which tells you "I wish I had not been so stupid and done so and so" that is usually almost every time the thing you should ALWAYS be doing.

The other day with my mother I was attempting to share a memory of a boyfriend with her. She interrupted and started one-upping me with her sarcastic manner.
"I didn't know I was competing with you," I snarled back at her. Then I added,
"If I knew I had to compete with you I would have had a better time and really picked some winners!"
We both laughed!

njny, it is so good to read what you're writing. We can start to feel so small when we are caregiving, like we don't matter at all. We do matter. Sometimes I think no one else will realize it until we realize it ourselves. I guess it is like the proverbial squeaky wheel. If we aren't asking for respect, then others won't even notice how disrespectful they are being.

I was just trying to think of how the thinking of others might be. I remember riding down the backwood roads of south Georgia back in the 1980s. People would have areas that they dumped things -- old furniture, tires, garbage, etc. Crews would come along occasionally and try to clean things up. Finally the county started posting "No Dumping" signs. It worked fast. I think caregivers have to make their own signs or people will continue to dump their negativity onto them. The signs don't have to be mean or angry, but they do have to establish that you are a no dump zone. This sounds like what you are doing with your mother. So cool the progress you are making. You're giving me ideas on things I can try.

Staying tuned!!! Good progress!

Hope everyone had a nice weekend. I just wanted to let you know that little by little, inch by inch, I am making gains. I actually had an honest and open conversation with my mother today about her sarcasm and moods, and I have never been able to address these things with her. In the past, she wasn't open to it and I was scared stiff. She, in turn, identified a couple of things that I could do differently, and I listened. I am crossing my fingers, albeit highly tentatively, that things will be at least a tiny bit better. Thanks for all of your encouragement. Don't go away!!!

When momma would say that she wished Jesus would come & get her, I'd ask how she knew that he hadn't already been and decided not to put such a complainer in Heaven.

Mom would also get very snippy if she was supposed to do something anybody else had told her to or expected her to do (exercise, stop eating fatty food, take her insulin, join the church where she wanted to be buried, etc.). Her big thing was to always say "Don't PUSH me!" I had gotten so fed up with her one time years ago that I said that she's lucky I'm so far away or I would have pushed her hind end with my big old foot. I could picture her in my mind as a sassy little girl on the playground with a big lip stuck out and her arms crossed, mad at everybody.

njny, my mother does the very same thing, blaming me for things. Yesterday she blamed me because some of our shrubs are dying. (Roll eyes) I told her that I was not to blame, so knock it off. I told her I didn't cause WWII, since I hadn't even been born. I really hate that blame game and will put it back on her. When I do take up for myself, she goes into her little girl act saying I'm fussing at her. She tells me that her parents and my father never fussed at her. I tell her that they probably should have. She does push my buttons by blaming for everything possible, but I just mash the reset button and carry on.

I know. When i was little, when my grandma would try stuff like this and my mom wouldn't tespond, my grandma would say "my, how you've changed" in this really awful tone of voice. My mom would say something like, "yes, I'm married and have a husband and children to think of now, Mother".

Thanks, Babalou. It is scary. I will try very hard to hang tough.

Hang tough kiddo. She's not going to die from not having a dog. You didn't hurt her back. You cannot solve her problems. If she calls with a medical "emergency", you call 911 and have the hospital call you if it's serious. Show up if they admit her. If they are sending her home, she goes in a cab. I'm not kidding.

Hi everyone--yesterday was wonderful. I felt I was making gains and taking care of myself. It was the best day I have had in ages. Today, however, started with a bang. My mother called to tell me she is severely depressed over not having a dog. (Ongoing saga) We are going to look at one a couple of hours away on Thursday. She also wants to check out more dogs and wanted me to call breeders. I have to tell you, I am exhausted from making these phone calls for her because she typically calls back herself and repeats everything I just said. I think I am so burned out I cannot do it anymore. When I didn't take her bait to make calls for her, and explained that I did not want to do it, she told me how horribly stressed and depressed she is and that is ALWAYS my cue to comply, but not today. I am changing to help myself, but I do not want to hurt her. This is tough and scary. She called back to say that her back is now bothering her as a result of our argument. She was upset and said she never ever wants to discuss dogs again with me and doesn't want me to come over--it is too upsetting to her. So starts her doling out of a punishment. Now she is all of the things that scare me to death--angry, hurt, and suffering. The adult in me says this is ridiculous, but the child in me is so scared. I am hanging in there--typically I would run over there and try to work this out but I am staying put for now. Wish me luck and inner strength. I love her and want to be there when she needs me but I have to take care of myself too. This is so so hard.

Have fun! Make it a habit!

Thank you Babalou, Golden, and JessieBelle. Your responses are so helpful that I printed them off and am reading and re-reading! Babalou--you ar right--I cannot fix what is wrong with my mother, and I have been trying to either fix her or just keep her afloat at great emotional expense to me. I am sacrificing myself and my family. Golden--your words about feelings related to FOG are so helpful--I do NOT have to act on them. My childhood emotions ARE driving my behaviors. I will try to make better choices and celebrate small degrees of progress. And JessieBelle--I am glad you spoke to your mother and told her what you needed to say. My mother has also been "dying" on and off for about 10 years, but is in good health. I also feel like I am carrying around a bag of gravel, and it is so very heavy. Great analogy!

I feel I need courage and that this is the very hardest thing I will ever do--my divorce many years ago was horrendous--I got through that and I can get through this, at least I will truly try. At least with a divorce, there is an official end (doesn't always really work, but still). With my mother, I feel as though this will go on for another decade or even longer. I will be in my 70's and I so want to enjoy my life and my loved ones. I want this manipulative gravel off my back. It pokes me, rubs me every wrong way, weighs a ton, and has been there for probably 50 years. It has been the heaviest the last ten years or so. I can't bear the weight anymore. I am trying very hard to not keep talking about my worries relating to my mother with my husband and grown kids, but it is hard. I feel like if I quit always talking about it and focus on other thinks, that will help. I will try!

Thank you again--I am leaving soon and hoping to have a nice day with my husband and some visiting cousins. We have to travel a couple of hours and my mother called to let me know her eye was bothering her. She did not want me to call the doctor yet, so I feel grateful for that. She told me to have a nice time, but that is always laced with her feelings of having nothing to do while I am having fun. She was invited but chose not to go. I told her I didn't know when I would be home and she said she was used to that. So... I am going to try and throw off her little comments and have a nice day. Or even some nice moments. I am going to try and find beauty all around me today. You are all beautiful, and I truly am grateful for your support, encouragement, and incredibly helpful advice.

njny, I feel the same way when my mother is depressed and not feeling well. It must be something I'm doing wrong. It makes me feel like I should try harder to make her happy. I am learning that making her happy is not something I can do. This evening she told me she was feeling bad and got grouchy with me. I told her that she had been feeling bad every day, all day long, for 10 years. I added that she made herself feel bad. I don't know what pleasure she gets out of feeling bad all the time. She has been dying each day for about 15 years now, really. It gets very tiresome, to tell the truth. It can be like carrying a heavy bag of gravel with me all day. I would like to spend more time with her and just chat. She has some type of dementia, but it doesn't behave like Alz. She can be pretty normal acting when she wants to. She chooses to feel bad all day, though. It is hard to be around her and impossible to carry on a conversation.

It did feel good today to share the burden some by telling her what I did. If someone dares says to me I should be nicer to my mama, I'll probably give them a virtual smack. I am really good to her, but this bag of gravel gets heavier and heavier as the years wear on.

straight *path*

njny - Yes, you will. Practice detaching. Your mother is reaping the results of years of negative and manipulative thinking patterns. Not your monkeys, not your circus. You have your own monkeys to deal with. and your own circus to run. Your have your own life and you are allowed to make decisions without your mum's button-pushing being a major concern. In fact, it is healthy so to do.
You cannot fix her. You can only fix yourself.

You are NOT the cause of your mother's depression - believe me - and no matter how she wants to blame everything on you, it just is not true, but a symptom of her sick mind. Example: my mother has had heart palpitations at various times related to her thyroid condition. She blames some one, once my daughter who was only trying to help her at the time. The real cause was that mother had chosen to stop taking her thyroid meds. Another time her dose was too high and she blamed the staff of the facility for upsetting her and so on. She always has to blame someone and I have had my fair share of being blamed. Even as a child I realised that I was not "as bad" as her rages indicated. You have a good mind - use it. Look at things rationally. Yes, your mother will take advantage of anything - like a trip you plan - to get her narcissistic supply and suck you into the FOG. (Fear, Obligation and Guilt). Yes, you feel those things but you don't have to act on them. Feelings are temporary. Any time you feel these take a hard look at what is happening to your emotions and choose whether or not to act on them. Your childhood emotions are driving your behaviours. They don't have to. I know it is scary to make different choices, but each time you do make even small healthier choices, it gets easier. In fact, reacting to her manipulations is enabling her and not good for her - or for you.

You are doing better and you can continue to, and get healthier. It isn't a straight oath - it is up and down, back and forth. That's OK. Pat yourself on the back for the progress you have made. (((((((((hugs))))))))