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PS don't even get me started about the food complaints!!
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Hi everyone! A special hi to JudymW - I hear you. At least you have been smarter than me by not allowing your mother to move into your home.
I had the same thing with my mother except about Wal-Mart. She collapsed in the frozen food aisle and had me running all over the store for water, etc. but wouldn't let me call 911. Then we she got home it was the phone calls to a best friend about her "crisis" in the store and how I wouldn't do anything!! When the friend goes away she invents some ailment so she can "guilt" the friend about her having been away while she "suffered". It's never anything!!
Watch out for the sabotage. If you dare to go anywhere or try to enjoy yourself somewhere it will be ruined, for it is not all about them.
My daughter and I went out for about three hours one day and, when we returned, it was "I had to call the dr and have him put in a prescription for antibiotics for me - I've got a throat infection." The dr. is 40 minutes out of town so of course did not see her, and he fell for the gravelly voice trick.
This is from a person who used to be a medical secretary, for Heaven's sake - it's shameful what they will do to bring attention to themselves!
And, never mind getting ill yourself, as you discussed - it will be belittled, criticized and negated. If I have an ailment of some sort (rarely) - the comment is "Oh you've always got something wrong with you". What about YOU? You invent a new one every week!!
Her friend had breast cancer and had to have a mastectomy. This was not believed by my mother who even orchestrated a trip on which they would share a hotel room so she could see if there really was evidence of a "true" mastectomy. When my mother was diagnosed at age 86 last Oct. and had to have a mastectomy herself, she called the friend and said "Well now I'm a member of your club" and, of course, hers was worse, a higher stage, took a longer recovery etc. and she was angry and upset that the friend 80 yrs old herself - wouldn't drive an hour to come and see her.
What can I say -- I laughed when you used the name "Debbie Downer" for that is a good nickname for these types! A lot of people have crossed my mother off their lists and when she moved in with me, I was told that she was unliked in her apt. building, which didn't surprise me but hurt coming from other people - just served to validate what I already knew.
You are right: let go, and let GOD. He's in charge anyway!! The only way I have been able to do this is with faith and patience! Good luck and don't engage .....keep your distance! Don't be too available!
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Isn't it interesting how one moment of clarity can change your whole perspective. Wonderful...happy for you!
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Thank you Cindy! I'm feeling much better!
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Dear golfgirl07...It doesn't sound selfish at all. It sounds like you finally realized that YOU MATTER! I think it's great. :)
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Oh, Libracat, you're so right with the new ailments. Its a new one every week, in addition to the standard "I had a horrible night. Didn't sleep at all." (I'm so sick of that one, I could scream. The woman sleeps in front of the TV for about 4 hours before she even goes to bed. She sleeps just fine.) Last week, her scalp was sore and she wouldn't shut up about it, and my dad is "useless". The weeks before, her back ached and I heard about it every day (along with my dad is "useless" and that she sacrificed her own happiness, and stayed married to him so that her kids would have the benefit of a 2 parent household - OMG). Three weeks ago, she had big drama in the grocery store with me, telling me she thought she was having a stroke but refused to let me call 911, and even finished her shopping while having this "stroke" like a frikkin martyr, hanging on to the shopping cart, giving me a sad, suffering face, stopping me when I wanted to call her bluff and get paramedics. Sounds mean, but I sort of ignored her drama once I realized she was just looking for attention, got the last few things on her list and took her home. She told me that she didn't want me to call 911 so that she could just die of her stroke. Oh, brother. I had bloodwork that showed a tumor marker as being high, had some tests, have some other issues and I need a total hysterectomy. Got a second opinion, booked the surgery. When I told Mom, she said on her last bloodwork, she had an abnormal protein in her blood that indicated a malignancy, and that they referred her to an oncologist and that my bloodwork mustn't be bad if I just need surgery with no cancer consultation. OMG. The oncologist saw her and told her that they found no evidence of cancer after her total body scan and additional bloodwork. But, according to her, she's dying slowly. She forgets that I take her to her appointments? Sometimes, I totally understand Lizzie Borden.No one can be more sick than Mom. I'm not worried about cancer, but what if I was? No one can do anything good enough for her. Her life has been a disappointment, and a sacrifice, she says. I try to make them dinner and she sends it back saying it was too spicy or my dad won't like it, or she asks me what was in it (with lip curled up like it was horrible). I tried supplying her with the frozen entrees from those assemble-your-own-dinner places. She said they were "odd" or my dad supposedly didn't like them, and it cost me a small fortune, just to have her say "please, don't do that again." and insult the food, again with the lip curled up. A simple, "thanks, but no thanks" would've been perfect. So, I can do no right. Sometimes I wish she'd just be outright nasty and not just negative and soooo disappointed, so I can just snap right back at her. Its hard to snap at a pity party. My kids call her Debbie Downer behind her back.

So, that's my long rant on negative, selfish, self-centered mothers. I could go on and on, but I sort of already did! I feel for you, musiclover1. You are a much better woman than I am for inviting your mother into your home. When the time comes, I don't think I'll be able to do that. I just don't have much feeling left any more for her but dread. I think you need to get her out now though. Its just not fair. You've been a great daughter and being denied enjoyment in your own life just isn't right. If I put myself in your shoes, I'd have no idea where to start though. How do you even begin the subject with your mom? Mine would be crying and dramatic, telling me I never loved her or some such nonsense. She accused me of that before when I told her I was tired of being her personal hair stylist. So, Musiclover1, I feel your pain. Having a chronic complainer for a mother is pretty rough! The best years that I can remember in a long time were when we moved out of the country for two years. Ahhhh... the distance and the prohibitively expensive phone calls were a blessing. Good luck.
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Emjo, I think the "training" is the problem. If an abusive parent knows you will walk away, put them in a NH or just not have contact with them. You are teaching them you won't put up with their BS. That is the problem, who can actually do this? I understand the concept of training people to treat us better, it is just implementing it.

My Mother has been nasty and lies about everyone, including me. Right now we talk and things seem find. I will never keep her in my home, nor will I be her handmaiden. She will be in an AL or NH, which ever comes first. This is the way I will teach her that lying, playing favorites, being a general pain in the ass is not what I will accept. It sounds harsh but it is what i have to do. Plus she is one of those paranoid people who wouldn't think twice about accusing you of stealing her money or mistreating her. So distance, distance, distance and plenty of boundaries.
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Cindy, you asked what made the change in me. Well, I have been in and out (mostly out) of a well-known support group for approximately 30 years. I decided to go back. I really don't know why I don't jump in with both feet and continue going because I always, always find help when I attend. It makes me realize I'm not in control of this situation. I can express my opinion but I cannot force. Secondly, I need not be at my mom's beck and call 24/7 should she decide to go back to her home. I simply will do what I can do for her within reason and let whatever happens happen. This may sound uncaring and selfish but it's OK to think of yourself in these situations too. I need to let go of the outcome and put it in God's hands. I can't, he can and I think I let him!
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(((((madge))))) - I haven't found that much I do changes how my mother treats me, and, believe me, I have tried many things. I am quite sure it does not matter how I treat my sister, she will not be helpful, and she will eventually be hurtful, if I stay in communication with her. My only protection is to cut communication with her. Some opeople are sick enough that no feedback changes things. I don't want to totally cut ciommunication with mother, as she does need a helpful family member. I am sure what you wrote works for healthy people and probably some dysfunctional ones.. Setting boundaries creates a "protective zone" for me, which I have created by, for example, not responding to phone calls, or emails. When I do respond to her communications, things are back to square one - it is not she who has changed it is me, and as long as it works that is fine. Boundaries protect me but do not change her, but they do change the effect she has on me. Perhaps it is a fine point. I really disagree with the statement that we train people how to treat us, as it infers it is our "fault" or responsibility when they treat us badly, but I do agree that how we respond to abusive people, can make a difference, for the good or for the bad, for us. I am so glad that you have reached a place of some peace with your mother. I know it has not been easy.
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((((((libra and golfgirl)))))) making healthy choices Woo Hoo!!!
libra, you can't change the past, but you can change things now - nothing is written in stone except that your mum will continue to be herself. I hope you are considerng it. Yes, do things that are for YOU, put YOU first at least some of the time, have some fun, enjoy life you deserve it.
hugs and prayers for a good day, no matter how the narcissists in our lives behave
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Libracat, I don't think you understand what I was saying about how we teach people how to treat us. We don't make these people who they are but they are quick studies on how to use us if we let them.

That applies to everyone's relationship with every person they know. Have you ever know the person everyone admires and respects, and how no one would do anything to cross them. Or most everyone. They have taught people how to treat them. Or the siblings who never help with the elderly parent, they have taught the parent what to expect and how to respond to them.

It works this way with all relationships. When you have a narcissistic parent you have to stop being their punching bag. And as Cindy Laverty, you must have boundaries.

It doesn't mean they were in anyway responsible for the parent's behavior, or caused the bad behavior toward them.

I am not a big fan of Dr Phil, but this does make sense to me. Because we all know people who would take advantage of us, if we let them. It is up to us to put up those boundaries and stand up for yourselves.

And Libracat, I am very much on your side and Musiclover's. I live this same situation also. But I have finally reached a place where I have some peace and Mom will not manipulate me any longer.
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Dear Golfgirl07...What a shift you have had in your thinking. I'm interested to know what changed for YOU? What happened for you? Breakthroughs like this one are so important and I congratulate you. I love that you are taking care of you and letting go of some control. Nice job!
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Recently I read a quote from something or other and I'll repeat it here! Goes like this, "You get what you tolerate!" I'm finding this truer every day!
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PS.......and it's not going to happen! So let's say we just give up and work on ourselves, which is what we should have been doing before the brainwashing and "training" set in ...... my biggest mistake was saying "no, thanks, she's coming to live with us in my home, that is her choice" to the hospital staff instead of listening to them when they said, "after her 3 wks of hospitalization after her heart attack ends, we will be placing her in an ALF in her own town"
Wish I'd just let the chips fall where they might have then!
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Right on, golfgirl07! I'm going to put this into practice myself! She's already thrown a crap job at me first thing this morning - on a Monday, which I hate - but guess what: the rest of the day I'm going to be doing MY own thing (sewing and mending which I really enjoy). So tough bananas!! Let's OCCUPY our own lives LOL!
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Well it's a new day and I have a new thought as to how I'm going to approach this problem today! I'm going to do what I can for my own peace of mind and not to please anyone else today. If mom is not happy today - so be it! I have decided that at the end of her stay in rehab, we will take the advice of the professionals and put her where they say she needs to be - if she insists on going home without an aide - so be it! I can do no more! I am stepping down from my soapbox beginning today! If she falls again, so be it! It simply is not in my control. I'm done! I've been trying to please for 65 years and it ain't happened yet!
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(((((hugs)))) back, libra - and I mean it - do something good for you today! I agree with Cindy - abuse is always detrimental, and in the case of a narcissistic parent, you also are dealing with the effects of a lifetime of abuse, and need time and space to heal from that, never mind dealing with the ongoing abuse. from which you need healing too. It really is too much. more ((((((hugs)))))
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Boundary setting is one of the most crucial aspects of being a caregiver. We are treated based on the strength or weakness of our boundaries. Many elderly people have no boundaries and feel like they are entitled to all of your time. Being a caregiver is challenging enough, but when you become an indentured servant in your own home, it's time to consider and look into making some changes. I concur with Carol. None of you can risk your personal health and emotional wellness, nor should anyone have to take abuse. Verbal abuse is detrimental to the human spirit. Begin the process of looking into alternative living for your loved one.
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Thanks for that, Emjo.....wishing you a joy-filled day :o)
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Rebecca, that is amazing and I hope it lasts, Like libra, I would be very suspicious if it happened to me, but I am not saying it is not real in your case. Maybe you and your mum are the exception to the rule.

Libra "Where does this total and complete lack of consideration come from? If I ever dared answer her that way.........." I have had that thought, and others your wrote, often. It does sound like your mum is narcissistic to the point of it being a mental illness. Not all seniors I know are selfish, but some are, and I think some become more narcissistic as they age. I could not tolerate my mum living in the same house as me. I would quickly become a basket case. I hear you about the childhood emotional and verbal abuse, and getting punished for normal childhood things. I have been to counsellors over the years, and found that most helped. They encouraged me to set boundaries to protect myself. I am glad you are coming here and venting. I know it helps.

golfgirl, I agree, it is impossible to live with someone who has no boundaries
((((((hugs)))))) to all of you and do something good for YOU today
Joan
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I am getting no empathy and doubt if I would look at it as sincere from someone so abusive, anyways. I would also like to know what makes seniors so selfish -- they are giving the elderly a bad name. They but in lines at the grocery, take things that don't belong to them, borrow things that are never returned, and feel that it is ok to comment, judge and criticize others, as if they themselves are perfect.
My daughter just brought in my granddaughter, who was sleeping and we put her in my bedroom, which is adjacent to my mother's. She (my mother) has the volume so loud on the tv that you can hear the whole program throught the walls.
I asked her if she would mind turning down the volume as the baby was sleeping in the next room........her answer was "why should I? I need to hear MY tv." Where does this total and complete lack of consideration come from? If I ever dared answer her that way..........
I was hit and punished as a child for saying that the neighbour's new VW looked like a "bug" (isn't that their nickname?) and for saying that the other neighbour's new haircut made her look "witchy". I was all of 8 yrs old at the time.
Why do you think this happened? Because it reflected badly on HER, in her mind. If that isn't sickness, I don't know what is. And that was not even the worst of the abuse.
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I totally agree,emjo. I discovered that I have a serious illness this year and the doctors believe that this could have been prevented if I had made myself a priority in some situations. The strange thing about this is that my mother ,who sounds very much like yours but younger,has developed empathy for me. After childhood filled with very few of those empathetic moments, I am puzzled but grateful. She and I have made a pact to look after each other. My siblings are bossy but not really caregivers. She and I may make it , but she wants to be in a nursing home if we are not able to work together well. There is no simple solution to caregiving.
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((((((hugs)))) Rebecca - so true. Sometimes it is not possible to keep our parent(s) at home, and also we need to build each other up, not add to the guilt that seems to be part of the job of caregiving. I have no desire to have my kids look after me, when that time comes, Truthfully, I don't think they or their circumstances are suited to that job. My sig other's parents will be moving to the ALF of their choice after his dad's latest session with illness. It is their plan. My mother is in an ALF, her choice, and I would not have it any other way. She, aged 99 and pretty health physically) has mental illness which she has had all her life, I am not talking dementia here, and there is no way I could cope with that. I am 74 and struggling with my own health issues. You can talk all the philosophies you like, but if you yourself are flat out physically for days at a time, or strung out emotionally for whatever reason, you cannot tend to someone else. It is easy to say it is all in the caregiver's attitude, but I think that is a hugely simplistic view.There is no "cookie cutter" answer to everyone's situation.
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I really don't WANT to put my mom in a home. The facility she is currently in for rehab is suggesting to me that she cannot care for herself properly and that they are concerned for her safety. I'd love her to be able to return home but truthfully she needs an aide to stay with her during the night. The cost is roughly $15.00 per hr. and the shift is 7 to 7. This is through an agency. I'm fearful of having someone I don't know come into her home without being screened, bonded and drug tested. She gets up all night. On top of that I have to worry about how she will get her meals. If she goes to assisted living, they have someone on call during the evening and provide three meals per day. I have tried in the past to live with her. It's impossible to live with someone with no boundaries!
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I think most of us on this site want our parents to be safe and happy. Many of us would place our parents in our homes if it happened to be possible. Sometimes it is not. How could I place my smoking parents in my home with my asthmatic child? They would not stop smoking, and my child would be very ill due to the second hand smoke. Also, nursing homes have been around for a long time.The first ones that were established in the 1800's . That does not mean they are always the best choice. My great-grandparents were born between 1870 - 1884. Out of all of the the great-grandparents, only one was placed in a nursing home, and that was because she was mean a snake and argued with everyone. My family still visited her regularly and tried to be loving. The other great-grandparents died at home with loving care. We can't judge each other on this site. Each person is different with different circumstances. I have volunteered in a wonderful nursing home. I am currently hunting for one for the extreme future that will allow my husband and me to stay together and to have my dog. :) If I find one, I may start with a down payment and prepare ahead. I took care .of my father and will take care of my Mother when she is ready and needs me. Let's build each other up and not make people feel guilty.
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Seems like everybody here wants to ship mom off to the nursing home. A hundred years ago, that wasn't an option. Have we evolved or we going backwards in mental health care for the elderly

If I ship my mom off to the nursing home facility they will take 100 persent of her life savings over the next few years. Not a lot, but everything's relative.

I have learned that when i stay present with my very confused Mother (that's the only way I can put it, but she has your mother's traits!) I do better.

And so does she. And I don't mean physically present, that comes and goes. I mean mentally present. (Eckhart Tolle or Byron Katie can give you some insights)

I've learned that it's not my Mom that's the problem, it's my reaction to her. And as all things in life, our continued relationship is only temporary.
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I nearly flipped when I read Musiclover's comments! She told my story over and over again. I thought I'd written that story. I too have taken care of my mother my entire life. My life was lived with the intent of making my mother happy. Which, by the way, never happened. The last 10 years my mother and I have lived (or tried to live) together. She has no boundaries. After I would leave for work she would sit in my bedroom and watch TV or talk of the phone. We then moved to another state and purchased a condo. Two bedrooms down and one bedroom and bath up. Mother slept upstairs. She is now pushing 90 and I have been begging her to sleep downstairs. I was so afraid she would fall. Well the inevitable happened! She feel and broke her leg and now has a rod in her femor and pins in her knee and a hip fracture. She has been in rehab for 4 weeks. She tells me daily that the aides are not caring for her properly and are rude to her. I picked the best place in town for her but she complains daily and refuses to take part in any of the activities. She has the food! The docs do not want weight on her leg for 8 weeks. She has another 4 to go. I am so afraid she will get up and undo the repairs made by the surgeon. My mom also has made me promise never to put her in a nursing home. I am her only child - no help is available for me. I'd love to hear from anyone who has any suggestions for me. Contact me at cralvarez3@aol.com! I'd love to hear from someone!
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I agree with finding your mother a new place to live. Distance between the two of you can help so much. Your mother will probably pitch a fit, but try to have a plan and carry it out while she is pitching a fit. You deserve a life that is pleasant, and it is unlikely your mother will be happy anywhere. Best wishes. Rebecca
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PS: when I said that most of them don't having anything wrong with them, I meant anything physically wrong with them really (even though they try to fabricate a new ailment every week).
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Emjo, excellent advice......you are right on the money. It's narcissism.
Madge1, I disagree with one thing you said: it's the mother who has taught the daughter that she (the mother) can control and abuse, not the other way around, even though Dr. Phil says "you teach people how to treat you". That's hogwash! How would anyone teach people to treat them in such an abusive manner -- why would they want that?
Musiclover1 - and it's interesting that you chose this name, because for me, music is the only thing that saves me - I hope you will thoroughly investigate this site and read all the posts on narcissism. You will see yourself, and myself, there........I can SO sympathize with you because you are exactly where I am right now.
If you can realize that you will never make her happy - and are not responsible for doing so - you might be able to make some headway. This is what I am learning right now. They are too old to change; they've been like this all their lives; no, it is not increasing dementia that's causing it, they just get worse with age. Most of them don't have anything really seriously wrong with them - it's just the way their personality is.
I think for you and I the goal is to regain our lives from a mother who believes she is owed, and deserved, whatever she wants, in the way she wants it, when she wants it. These people believe that they are better than others and should only have the best. They even talk about their own best friends with disdain!
I am learning also that the root of this whole problem is their own insecurity - they fear not being good enough so to give themselves importance and be at the top of the ladder (so they think, for they hate to have anyone see them in a less than favourable light) they denigrate, criticize and judge others to make themselves feel better.
Nothing you do will make her smile. She's miserable in her own right so just let her be!! Why should we kill ourselves "serving" them and jumping through hoops for them? Let them be miserable if that's what they want! My mother has driven away countless friends by her behaviour. There's always a comment or judgment so that she can "win".
It's very complex and deep-rooted but it's all about control and being in charge.
Now it's time for you and I to be in charge, voice what we don't like and won't put up with and set limits and boundaries -- and if that isn't suitable, well then there are always nursing homes or assisted living facilities. Once there, they will soon see that it isn't always about them and they will complain even more.
Too bad!!
I can tell you that I have learned an enormous amount from all those who have posted on this site. Also, do your homework and do some research on narcissism and visit that site that is suggested above - it's marvellous and really spells it out for what it is.
Bottom line - you're a GREAT person - you're kind and good-hearted - the Lord is watching and, last but not least, IT'S NOT YOU, IT'S HER!!
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