Gus, well it could be worse…. I initially scan read that your folks had a ranch that they were insisting on owning and keeping up with!!! Lol.
You’ve gotten great insight and suggestions on the situation. I have concerns / questions on that Quit Claim deed that was done. Please hang with me on this as what I’m concerned about is NOT straightforward. So…. It sounds like QCD was done to remove mom 50% ownership to be 100% dads, right? So was QCD fully acted on?…. Like document taken to courthouse and recorded so that now the tax assessor bill is in only in your dads name, ditto for homeowners insurance, utilities, etc? OR….. is QCD being held, like in a safe deposit box or at the same attorney’s office (like along with your folks wills), so that it can get taken out to use to squash any attempt by your States MERP or their outside contractor for estate recovery and so being used also for probate avoidance? So names have not changed on property records.
Your mom is in an AL on Medicaid, correct? If so she is probably on a Medicaid “waiver” program. & she is not technically on Medicaid LTC skilled nursing facility program (aka in a SNF / NH on LTC Medicaid). She’s on a community based Medicaid “waiver” for AL. If so, this type of Medicaid has their requirements somewhat less draconian than NH Medicaid is and the detailed 5 yr look back & impoverishment for the NH spouse doesn’t have to happen as she’s still technically living in her community. Community Medicaid is more based on at-need for medical oversight rather than at-need both medically for skilled care and financially impoverished. Mom doing a QCD and gifting her 50% ownership to dad isn’t an issue as it’s community based Medicaid. BUT…. it sounds like your mom needs a lot of care and is at the far side of extra services from the AL. She very likely will need to move to a higher level of care and that usually means into SNF aka a NH. If her move into a NH means a fresh Medicaid application, that QCD could be a problem. She gifted an asset; a penalty could be placed on her eligibility.
please try to clearly find out what type of Medicaid she is on and just what the look back requirements will be if a fresh application to be done and just how that QCD could affect her eligibility. And what it could mean for your dad’s own LTC Medicaid application. His own health doesn’t sound at great…. Like what if he’s going to also need a facility?. What then on that “ranch”??
LTC Medicaid has a required copay of basically almost all their income to go as a copay to the Nh. Should they both need a Nh, it gets sticky. Elders can continue to keep their home but have realistically no-zero-nada of $ to pay a penny on the property. Would you and your siblings be ok on doing and paying on all on the “ranch” beyond death? Paying for an attorney if needed? Private paying for NHs should they be ineligible due to gifting?
again please please have a clear convo with the atty as to just how lookback & gifting & MERP gets handled your state. Doing asset avoidance - like a Trust or a QCD or changing beneficiaries- is all great but you need things done years ahead and before imminent care & Medicaid applications need to get filed. And you need a wallet to personally pay for whatever till whenever without any worry. My concern is that Unless that deed was done the Fall of 2017, it could be in the lookback period for asset transfer penalty should LTC Medicaid application filed. You imo need to precisely find out the ramifications for LTC Medicaid, MERP.
Gus2020DC: You simply cannot be the person show as it relates to your parents' care. Their mindset is skewed as they feel that it is your job to handle everything. You are ONE person and it often takes a team of medical professionals to perform the tasks that you are doing solo. Get respite through any means possible.
It doesn't really matter what the 'common mindset,' is - what matters is: 1) your legal responsibilities as outlined; 2) Knowing what you can / will do and can / won't do. Then: 3) Conveying to your parents the legal requirements (in layman's terms, nicely) and tell them what your boundaries are. - If they do not understand, cease 'trying' to explain and do what you need to do, otherwise, you will be a rat on a maze / a broken record repeating yourself and exhausting yourself 'trying' to convince them to understand ... when they may not have the mental / psychological capacity to understand. 4) Next steps: enlist others (friends, family, church / volunteers) to support the care they need.
You must set limits / boundaries. Gena / Touch Matters
Just read you reply. This has nothing to do with being a POA, this has to do with being their child. If you were not POA , would you not be doing the same things?
If your family thinks this is part of being a POA, then you need to put them straight. If your parents are competent to reassign a POA, tell them you are stepping down. That the responsibility of having the responsibility of two people is too much. This is not what POA means.
POA does not mean "hands-on care taker.". You may need to make the arrangements for shopping, physical care, finances etc, but you do not have to do these things yourself.
When my mother had the stroke, I went to see her every day for six weeks. When she was moved to another hospital to a rehab center, I was there for her every other day for another six weeks. When rehabilitation was not progressing, we moved her into assisted living with the most care possible. She is unable to get out of bed herself, dress, shower and is incontinent. She finally understands that she cannot live with me because of these conditions. My dad fell and broke his nose and stayed with me for 10 days. They all think I am a saint for taking care of my parents but are not of the same level of compassion. I know how it feels to be left alone after divorcing after 23 years. She says that she always feels better when she sees me. I get her any extras that the facility does not supply. Some days she will call with a list of things that she "needs", like candy, cashews, hairspray, makeup, etc. Although I usually don't mind, I had a talk with her and told her I was getting fatigued. Maybe she could call her other children and talk with them. She says she can depend on me to do what I say I will do, it's just who I am. Recently she is complaining of pain, possibly neuropathy from the stroke, not sure. She is on medication for pain and I make sure that she gets it when she needs it, which wasn't happening. After a couple of discussions with the staff it may be under control now. It seems to be a constant watch to make sure they are doing what they say they will do for her. We had a family meeting not too soon after the stroke, and siblings made it known then that they would be very limited in their assistance. My sister told me that I need to cut the strings after I called and vented to her one evening. I don't think that is the answer, she is my mother.
"She is unable to get out of bed herself, dress, shower and is incontinent. "
That's a lot of conditions to still be in AL. She's at the highest level, you wrote. Will she move to a SNF on the same site after that?
It's interesting that your siblings don't want to be involved. Are you the youngest? Were you always the favorite child? Or did she for some reason groom you to be the one who would become her caregiver? It's especially surprising that your daughter didn't get it dumped on her, as all too often it is the daughters who are assumed will be the one the elders depend on.
Can dad live alone at the "ranch" without destroying YOUR life and health?
Remember, what YOU want and need matters here.
My mom wanted to age at home. But when, 3 days in a row, she called me at work and said "I need you", I had to have a hard conversation with her.
"Mom, I can't keep doing this".
Mom-"what is "this" that you can't keep doing?"
Racing from deep in Brooklyn to Westchester County, blowing off work and family commitments to get here to find that youanxious about something.
Mom-is that so hard? I'm your mother.
Mom, I'm going to lose my job and my career and my home.
My mother had NO CLUE that all this "coming" was a big deal. A stroke had caused some cognitive changes that none of us had recognized. She wasn't seeing the big picture anymore.
I said no, I wasn't going to keep rushing to her side. My brothers also told her "no dice". She went to a great Independent Living place and thrived there.
Gus, stand up for your own life. Set limits and boundaries. Dad may need to go to AL.
You need to explain what your parents think ur duties are. Is your POA Immediate or you need a Doctor saying ur parents are no longer competent to invoke it. Do you have POA for each of them?
So many people think POA means they are incharge, not so. You are a representative of that person. POA does not mean you are at that person's beck and call or have agreed to be their Caregiver. Its a tool to be able to handle things for that person when they no longer are competent to do so. Basically, financially. Read your POA and see what it lists as your responsibility.
Immediate means as soon as the POA is signed, you have the ability to help that person. Not take over but the ability. No doctors needed to invoke it. So, Dad needs help paying the bills, thats where u come in. He needs help in talking to a credit card company or utility company, you can talk to them. A POA is a tool. If Dad is capable of calling a Credit Card company or utilities, then he does it. Getting a repair man in, he does it. Mom needs something, Dad does it. POA should only be used when the person can't do for themselves. It does not make you their Caregiver but you can hire someone, on their dime, to care for them or place them. You can hire a cleaning lady, on their dime, to clean their house. POA does not mean you have to clean their house. You do not use any of your own money for their care or financial needs. When the money runs out, you find options but u should not be the option.
If the POA says a doctor or two needs to declare incompetence to invoke the POA, then you don't come into the picture until then. If Mom is incompetent, then you not Dad make the decisions for her. This does not mean Dad still cannot do for her.
Did you agree to be POA? If not, you could revoke it. Seems Dad is competent to assign someone else. Mom maybe not. Revoking hers would mean there is no one to make decisions for her. Even if you agreed, you can still revoke it.
Yes, we saw an elder law attorney and she advised the quit claim. My mother is on Medicaid because my father is still living in the family home. He is 91 and my mother is 92 years old. Until her stroke in June of this year they both were living in the family home together. They are not rich by any means and when my mother needed extensive care besides being in assisted living we were advised to put her on Medicaid. I had a family meeting with my sister, who lives 2 hours away, and two brothers. One brother flat out said he couldn't help, 70 years old, My younger brother 60 said he would help with my father as much as he could. So here I am feeling I have no choice because they are my parents. Trying to help out with their finances is not a problem, paying their bills, etc. but now I am their go to for everything else and feeling overwhelmed at times.
My YB who was mom's POA took it to mean he was the 'boss' of her. At first, she kind of rebelled, then she adapted to it and never made a decision without his 'go-ahead'. It was annoying for the rest of us who would have been happy to step in now and then and relieve some of his burden, and to have a chance to help mom, but the last 10 years of her life--it was all about him controlling her.
Even after she died, and the EXECUTOR took over (other YB) the POA could not be made to understand he'd basically 'lost' his job. The executor took all the pertinent documents to his home and has been settling out mother's small estate.
YB wanted to run mom's life. WANTED to. Most people don't even want to run their own lives, much less have to make decisions for someone who no longer can.
So in the end, YB is totally exhausted and worn out. He didn't need to be. He had plenty of offers and mother had money for in home care. He would not allow it.
As POA it is your job to arrange everything for them when, and only when, they become incapacitated. It is your job to find them appropriate care, not provide it for them. They can ask anyone for help, just as you can.
I am having a hard time understanding your question and what the implications of it are. It almost sounds s if you think that you will be responsible for personally handling their care, being the hands on caregiver. That is definitely not the case.
Gus2020DC, are you Financial Power of Attorney, or Medical Power of Attorney, or both? When it comes to caregiving, it is best when one person can make the decisions instead of a half dozen other family members being in the mix.
Now, if other family members want to help, you can find out what they wish to do, to make sure it's not be duplicated by another family member.
As I read your profile, I am wondering why your Mom needed to sign a Quit Claim on the family home? Was that to keep Medicaid from taking her half of the house? Was that the advice from the Elder Law Attorney? Please note that Medicaid is funded by us taxpayers.
You’ve gotten great insight and suggestions on the situation.
I have concerns / questions on that Quit Claim deed that was done. Please hang with me on this as what I’m concerned about is NOT straightforward. So…. It sounds like QCD was done to remove mom 50% ownership to be 100% dads, right? So was QCD fully acted on?…. Like document taken to courthouse and recorded so that now the tax assessor bill is in only in your dads name, ditto for homeowners insurance, utilities, etc?
OR…..
is QCD being held, like in a safe deposit box or at the same attorney’s office (like along with your folks wills), so that it can get taken out to use to squash any attempt by your States MERP or their outside contractor for estate recovery and so being used also for probate avoidance? So names have not changed on property records.
Your mom is in an AL on Medicaid, correct? If so she is probably on a Medicaid “waiver” program. & she is not technically on Medicaid LTC skilled nursing facility program (aka in a SNF / NH on LTC Medicaid). She’s on a community based Medicaid “waiver” for AL. If so, this type of Medicaid has their requirements somewhat less draconian than NH Medicaid is and the detailed 5 yr look back & impoverishment for the NH spouse doesn’t have to happen as she’s still technically living in her community. Community Medicaid is more based on at-need for medical oversight rather than at-need both medically for skilled care and financially impoverished. Mom doing a QCD and gifting her 50% ownership to dad isn’t an issue as it’s community based Medicaid.
BUT….
it sounds like your mom needs a lot of care and is at the far side of extra services from the AL. She very likely will need to move to a higher level of care and that usually means into SNF aka a NH. If her move into a NH means a fresh Medicaid application, that QCD could be a problem. She gifted an asset; a penalty could be placed on her eligibility.
please try to clearly find out what type of Medicaid she is on and just what the look back requirements will be if a fresh application to be done and just how that QCD could affect her eligibility. And what it could mean for your dad’s own LTC Medicaid application. His own health doesn’t sound at great…. Like what if he’s going to also need a facility?. What then on that “ranch”??
LTC Medicaid has a required copay of basically almost all their income to go as a copay to the Nh. Should they both need a Nh, it gets sticky. Elders can continue to keep their home but have realistically no-zero-nada of $ to pay a penny on the property. Would you and your siblings be ok on doing and paying on all on the “ranch” beyond death? Paying for an attorney if needed? Private paying for NHs should they be ineligible due to gifting?
again please please have a clear convo with the atty as to just how lookback & gifting & MERP gets handled your state. Doing asset avoidance - like a Trust or a QCD or changing beneficiaries- is all great but you need things done years ahead and before imminent care & Medicaid applications need to get filed. And you need a wallet to personally pay for whatever till whenever without any worry.
My concern is that Unless that deed was done the Fall of 2017, it could be in the lookback period for asset transfer penalty should LTC Medicaid application filed. You imo need to precisely find out the ramifications for LTC Medicaid, MERP.
1) your legal responsibilities as outlined;
2) Knowing what you can / will do and can / won't do. Then:
3) Conveying to your parents the legal requirements (in layman's terms, nicely) and tell them what your boundaries are.
- If they do not understand, cease 'trying' to explain and do what you need to do, otherwise, you will be a rat on a maze / a broken record repeating yourself and exhausting yourself 'trying' to convince them to understand ... when they may not have the mental / psychological capacity to understand.
4) Next steps: enlist others (friends, family, church / volunteers) to support the care they need.
You must set limits / boundaries. Gena / Touch Matters
I did go mad. Attempted for a long time to convince.. what actually worked was putting in my own limits. Letting reality convince.
If your family thinks this is part of being a POA, then you need to put them straight. If your parents are competent to reassign a POA, tell them you are stepping down. That the responsibility of having the responsibility of two people is too much. This is not what POA means.
AND not every "want" has to be fulfilled immediately. You can visit once a week with supplies.
That's a lot of conditions to still be in AL. She's at the highest level, you wrote. Will she move to a SNF on the same site after that?
It's interesting that your siblings don't want to be involved. Are you the youngest? Were you always the favorite child? Or did she for some reason groom you to be the one who would become her caregiver? It's especially surprising that your daughter didn't get it dumped on her, as all too often it is the daughters who are assumed will be the one the elders depend on.
Besides the things you say you don't mind doing (financial), what exactly is it that you are expected to handle?
What kind of POA do you have (is it springing?)?
Can dad live alone at the "ranch" without destroying YOUR life and health?
Remember, what YOU want and need matters here.
My mom wanted to age at home. But when, 3 days in a row, she called me at work and said "I need you", I had to have a hard conversation with her.
"Mom, I can't keep doing this".
Mom-"what is "this" that you can't keep doing?"
Racing from deep in Brooklyn to Westchester County, blowing off work and family commitments to get here to find that youanxious about something.
Mom-is that so hard? I'm your mother.
Mom, I'm going to lose my job and my career and my home.
My mother had NO CLUE that all this "coming" was a big deal. A stroke had caused some cognitive changes that none of us had recognized. She wasn't seeing the big picture anymore.
I said no, I wasn't going to keep rushing to her side. My brothers also told her "no dice". She went to a great Independent Living place and thrived there.
Gus, stand up for your own life. Set limits and boundaries. Dad may need to go to AL.
Perhaps they have had some concerns over other family members. Maybe it’s just a “feel.”
I did not believe my parents when they told me about predatory behavior by other “trusted” family members. That is, until I witnessed it for myself.
If you feel you need help, hire help. (The hired help was more effective and trustworthy than family— and “less expensive” in more ways than one!)
So many people think POA means they are incharge, not so. You are a representative of that person. POA does not mean you are at that person's beck and call or have agreed to be their Caregiver. Its a tool to be able to handle things for that person when they no longer are competent to do so. Basically, financially. Read your POA and see what it lists as your responsibility.
Immediate means as soon as the POA is signed, you have the ability to help that person. Not take over but the ability. No doctors needed to invoke it. So, Dad needs help paying the bills, thats where u come in. He needs help in talking to a credit card company or utility company, you can talk to them. A POA is a tool. If Dad is capable of calling a Credit Card company or utilities, then he does it. Getting a repair man in, he does it. Mom needs something, Dad does it. POA should only be used when the person can't do for themselves. It does not make you their Caregiver but you can hire someone, on their dime, to care for them or place them. You can hire a cleaning lady, on their dime, to clean their house. POA does not mean you have to clean their house. You do not use any of your own money for their care or financial needs. When the money runs out, you find options but u should not be the option.
If the POA says a doctor or two needs to declare incompetence to invoke the POA, then you don't come into the picture until then. If Mom is incompetent, then you not Dad make the decisions for her. This does not mean Dad still cannot do for her.
Did you agree to be POA? If not, you could revoke it. Seems Dad is competent to assign someone else. Mom maybe not. Revoking hers would mean there is no one to make decisions for her. Even if you agreed, you can still revoke it.
Need more info on what they expect from you.
Even after she died, and the EXECUTOR took over (other YB) the POA could not be made to understand he'd basically 'lost' his job. The executor took all the pertinent documents to his home and has been settling out mother's small estate.
YB wanted to run mom's life. WANTED to. Most people don't even want to run their own lives, much less have to make decisions for someone who no longer can.
So in the end, YB is totally exhausted and worn out. He didn't need to be. He had plenty of offers and mother had money for in home care. He would not allow it.
I am having a hard time understanding your question and what the implications of it are. It almost sounds s if you think that you will be responsible for personally handling their care, being the hands on caregiver. That is definitely not the case.
Now, if other family members want to help, you can find out what they wish to do, to make sure it's not be duplicated by another family member.
As I read your profile, I am wondering why your Mom needed to sign a Quit Claim on the family home? Was that to keep Medicaid from taking her half of the house? Was that the advice from the Elder Law Attorney? Please note that Medicaid is funded by us taxpayers.