Setting boundaries is hard. Any advice?

You’ve already taken exactly the right step by backing away. Now you must accept that you can’t do anything to bring change in your spouses family dynamics with MIL. They’ve been in place a long time and aren’t likely to change. I hope you won’t return to the toxic stew. If money is an issue and you’re financially able, you can offer to hire help for a number of shifts per week. My dad’s hospice agency kept a list of workers, not employees of theirs, but people familiar to them who did exactly this type of work. I hired a couple of them and they proved to be invaluable during such a hard time. But I had a family who was fine with it. If you don’t get cooperation, continue to keep your wise boundaries and resist discussing the topic again at all with your spouse. No use have a discussion that leads only to more contention. Being able to accept help is not a defeat, it’s admitting we’re human. I hope the family will see this soon

The forum is very consistent in saying ‘Beware of Mummy’s Boys’. The same advice applies to Mummy’s Girls. Sure, this could break up your marriage, but it can also ruin your life. So yes, you ought to refuse to go over three or four times a day for lengthy care visits. And ‘we insist on getting more outside help, as in paid help, she will drop dead of a heart attack and it'll be our fault for pushing her over the edge’ sounds like a perfectly reasonable plan.

The fewer people are enabling this, the sooner it’s going to be too much for the one person left standing. Then things will change. Can you leave for a couple of weeks, without a big bust-up? Think of a reason.

For petes sake bring in more help. I can bet MIL won't die and if she does it won't be anyone's fault. Based on what you have said about her, her dying would be a relief. But dont worry she will probably live a long, long time to burden and make her families lives a living hell.

This is quite the handful! Your MIL sounds like a real piece of work.

It's horrible how no one will stand up to her. Kudos to you for standing up for YOU by saying no more of this for you.

Sad how the family is so enabling of her. Since MIL is talking about wanting to die cuz she can't take this - sound to me like she's burnt out and who could blame her. No one is cut out for 24/7 caregiving. She needs paid help and she needs it NOW. She isn't going to drop dead of a heart attack due to getting paid help. That's pretty ridiculous, IMHO. Sorry, I do understand that the kids are scared but come on.

I would tell your spouse that on top of you not doing it anymore, you strongly suggest that she back off as well. This is not healthy. MIL obviously needs outside help. Whether she likes it or not. Or FIL should really be placed somewhere.

Not to be unfeeling, but is the end seemingly near for him? Been on hospice for 7 months or so, so just wondering approximately how much longer MIL and the rest of the family are expecting to keep this up. It is just NOT sustainable.

Good luck.

You all have given a MASSIVE gift of care over a LONG time.

But time passes, needs increase, so each person must re-assess - if they can continue the at the same level, or at all.

Even most gift cards have an expiry date!

So you are out.
This will force the remainders to re-assess.
Then as the next one steps back, more re-assessing. It's probably well time for MIL to finds an alternative plan...
Without the *team* MIL will come to realises that *family only* is no longer working. That *NON-family* is needed.
Or even that *in-home* hospice is no longer working & *in-care* hospice is next.

Boundaries ARE hard.
But by withdrawing your hand from play, a fresh round begins.

PS MIL will "drop dead of a heart attack"?

This is MIL just trying to get her way. Her manipulation card. She will continue to use this if it keeps working for her. (Some even pull out the suicide threat card - beware of that!)

You took the first correct step. You can only hope others will follow. Beatty is right, MIL knows how to get her own way. You are lucky to not be so invested in her that you can say NO. I posted a discussion on another thread as to why setting and maintaining boundaries are so hard. My grandmother was like this. My father was so afraid of telling her NO or upsetting her. She will get mad! And? She doesn't seem to care about getting you mad so why is everyone so afraid of upsetting her? That is the part I could never understand. What power does she hold over everyone?

'but I have been able to tolerate her for all these years because I didn’t spend much time with her. In the last few years since all this began, I have found out just how mean she really is.'

It's a common theme in this situation for many families. Characteristics that people could ignore or let go because of distance are shown to be just the tip of the iceberg, once the situation intensifies.

Setting the boundaries is the easier part. Maintaining them is hard. I know that is what you mean. Watching your LOs experience (suffer) the results of your behaviour changes is hard. Keeping on your new course despite the pressure from others is hard. Refusing to be manipulated can be hard when everyone else is falling for it. Seeing things fall apart because you have opted out of the "game" is hard. You don't have to go along with the codependent insanity. Somewhere inside, you know it is the healthiest course of action for you and ultimately for the others.

It isn't easy but it is the right thing to do. Meanwhile look after yourself. Do things that are good for you. You can't change anyone else, only yourself. Well done!!!

I look at it this way. If FIL is 87 then MIL is probably close in age, She probably been dealing with FILs Dementia for a while. If in her 80s she just doesn't have the energy. Maybe FIL should be placed in LTC with Hospice. Then MIL can visit and not have the stress of caring for him and wondering when he will pass.

Seems to me, though, she has a lot of help. More than some people. Hospice should be giving her an aide to bathe him 2 or 3 days. If only coming an hour at a time see if she can get more hours. I would also ask if Hospice can provide an air mattress so you don't need to turn FIL as much. If they can't, I may buy one.

I have a bit of a different take on all this. My advice is from the heart and not meant to be taken in any way but a positive one.

Your wife is stuck in the middle of this horribly manipulative relationship with her mother, feeling obliged to pander to her for fear she really WILL drop dead if she goes against her wishes. Knowing full well she WON'T drop dead, and that it's just more of mother's FOG (fear obligation & guilt) cards she's playing, as usual, but she doesn't know what to do right now b/c her father is dying & she can't risk it. She's scared about that, and mother is playing her trump card to the HILT as a result, while others are fawning all over her. She's eating it up with a spoon, loving every moment of this attention, too, b/c that's what her game is all about: ATTENTION. And getting help with everything without ASKING for it (that was my own mother's MO with everything: I never ASKED you for anything, so don't blame ME.....) Now is not the time to take a strong stand against this behavior from your MIL b/c her husband is dying, meaning your wife's father is dying. What your wife needs right now is support from YOU more than anything else in the world b/c she's a lost little girl, not knowing where to turn or what TH to do. You leaving her high & dry right now is a mistake, in my opinion, b/c she needs you more than she's ever needed you at this moment.

Once her father dies, THEN you can make a stand (TOGETHER) about what you will and will not put up with with her mother's behavior. You can have a real heart to heart talk then and discuss how mean MIL is and how neither one of you should be putting up with that sort of behavior, and what you want to do about it. Of course, then she'll be playing The Grieving Widow Card to the hilt, but you'll cross that bridge when you get to it. For now, just be there to help your wife and not leave her alone to tread water. I know you disagree with how she's handling her mother, I do too, and so does everyone else, but it's just not the right time to start WWIII with the woman at this moment.

In the meantime, set aside some time just for you & your wife to spend together. Have a nice dinner together, just some alone time where you can be a comfort to her. She needs that. When my parents were dying, my husband was my rock and w/o him, I think I would have fallen apart. I was so scared, dealing with hospice, and watching them die, I was just a basket case in general. He held me up. You need to hold HER up right now, not put your foot down with your demands.

I am sorry you are both going through such a trying time, and I pray that God comes to take your FIL soon, and without pain or anymore suffering. Dementia & Alzheimer's are dreadful conditions to be dealing with, and I watched my own mother succumb in February, with hospice care on board too, thankfully. Sending you a hug and prayer for a good resolution here, however it all plays out.

lea - you make a good point about Sammy's wife needing support, That is not inconsistent with Sammy keeping healthy, self protective boundaries. Loving support can be shown in many ways.

You were an annoying, demanding child who drove adults to almost insanity. The elders tolerated and helped you, and if you don’t die first, one day you will be in need of loving tolerance again. Grow up! That’s the chain of life, and your old age is probably coming faster than you you know. Hire someone to help and be thankful that you can be of help to people who did tgeir best for your loved ones.

Yeah it sounds like you need to set some boundaries. don’t feel guilty about that when you need to you need to. Do get some paid help; it’ll save everybody’s sanity it’ll be worth it. You don’t have to leave the house when they’re there either, which is what I recommend, just be the manager While they are there.

I was a live in caregiving manager, 24/7, staff at six that included myself, and cared for this couple seven years.

My Mrs. had a mean streak, and what I did to manage my sanity with her was to treat her like a child and reprimand her and scold her when she misbehaved. People don’t understand, a bully is a bully, and when you stand up to them it helps your sanity. I never had to be mean back to my Mrs., but I did call her on her bullsh*t. And sometimes she cooperated afterwards and sometimes she didn’t. It is what it is. But I kept my sanity by sticking up for myself. Job is still hard no doubt. Good luck.

I don’t know exactly what Hospice provides, but it’s not sufficient in this situation!

Is it possible to move him into a LTC facility?

If not, the family needs more paid help.

Sending love, it sounds like a living nightmare.

It is time to put down your end of the rope and walk away from your volunteer work............yes, you have all volunteered to be stuck in someone else's nightmare.

FIL needs to be placed immediately (Nursing, then Memory Care?): please call Adult Protective Services to have them evaluated and see if the VA will place him in their facility.

Please advise the family that your MIL is going to die...........we all are. If MIL wants to die, then the family should respect her choice and not participate in the drama of it all, just let her go and place her in a senior housing facility, even if it's independent living.........your wife can set up appointments with Mom to visit and choose.

You and your wife need to get on the "same page" about boundaries and what would make both of you happy. When both parents are placed then the whole family can fill out a visiting calendar and go visit both of them if desired.

If all of this is too difficult for you or your wife, please seek therapy so that you can both see the "light at the end of the tunnel."

The first step in resolving situations is to set boundaries. Then you and others willing to join can figure out how to solve issues within the boundaries. If you try to fix situations first, you may find those boundaries never really get set much less adhered to. Good luck!

Everyone in your story is in a difficult situation, including your mean MIL. Can you take the high road and channel your love for your wife to help her and her family through this? Don't expect any thanks or appreciation. It sounds like everyone is near the breaking point, including your MIL. You all need help dealing with the amount of work involved with caring for your FIL. Will hospice also provide in-home care while you figure out how to get more help? Medicare/Medicaid may also prove some in-home caregivers. The family should take all the help you can get. Would the family consider moving your FIL to a hospice facility (maybe a VA facility?), where professional staff will care for him and the family can oversee his care and visit often as family members rather than as caregivers? Get connected with a local social worker and/or the VA who can help explain his and the family's options. To me, it sounds like the amount of care has become more than the family can handle on their own. And your MIL is not likely to have a heart attack if you get more help. She sounds like she is crying out for more help.

Have you looked into more help in your home or considered placement in a facility for FIL hospice care? Requires skilled nursing that exceeds your care level.

Sammy64: While being a support partner to your wife, you also don't need to be your MIL's doormat, if you will. Continue to support your wife as her father is actively dying. I pray that your FIL's pain ends soon as it is a difficult time when one's parent is at EOL.

Your mother-in-law may be so exhausted from the caregiving that she can't think straight and doesn't realize just how exhausted or depressed she is. The fact that she's threatening suicide tells me that she has depression. Studies, including those from the Alzheimer's Association, show that primary caregivers have a depression rate as high is 50%. I think your mother-in-law needs a lot more help and I think the rest of family needs help as well, but no one is sure exactly what to do. I understand this family situation all too well as my mother is on hospice, incontinent, with dementia and bedbound. My mom is a glass is full personality, and yet, it has been a very difficult time for all of us. We have her in a care home because we readily admit that we are not able to manage the situation, but we are financially stable enough that we can afford to pay for the care home, which is extremely expensive. Medicaid in my state will cover the cost of 24-hour care in a skilled nursing facility for your FIL's condition, but Medicare will not. Hospice does not cover the cost of this either – it only covers the palliative medical aspect of the care. Most families cannot afford this level of care. I would try to find a social worker through your father-in-law's and your mother-in-law's doctors. This cannot be good for either of them's health. You can express to their doctors that you are very concerned about their well-being. Ask the doctors, your father-in-law's hospice, your local Alzheimer's Association, your local area agency on aging and any other organization you can think of, including local churches, about any kind of resources they are aware of and how to access them. You might even try calling 211. This will be a great help to your wife, to her aunt, to her mother and, ultimately, to her father. Each one of you is suffering through this no-win ordeal. You are very fortunate to have such a deeply loving and caring wife.

Likely your MIL is grieving, angry, depressed and scared — not to mention emotionally and physically exhausted. And this has been going on since February… that’s a lot. Especially if she’s a diva and losing the only person who indulges her.

Can you pity the miserable old bat and block out MIL’s bad attitude with “I do this for my wife”?

Can you turn the table and say to MIL, “It’s obvious you’re unhappy with my help, so I’ll leave now” and walk? Or “Clearly I’m upsetting you. I’ll come back tomorrow.” Can you say “I am taking a 2 week vacation from this to give myself a chance to recalibrate?”

Can you get Aunt Di on board to get FIL into a hospice facility where there’s 24/7 care and you all get to be the grieving family - not the exhausted help?

Can you reply with what she should be saying: “You mean, thank you for helping your FIL. I appreciate how you interrupt your life to help me” and “You’re welcome” for changing his diaper when MIL harps? (A friend gave herself 6 compliments in response to a criticizing parent before said parent got the point.)

Can you label MIL “Bad Attitude” and journal the crazy? Then share it with your wife so she sees it through your eyes and without the argument? Can you turn Bad Attitude into farce and make her laughable?

I think the resentment comes from a litany of Bad Attitude instead of gratitude. And your wife seems equally expectant instead of enormously grateful when it’s really her monkey, her circus.

So while your wife needs your support, what support is she giving you when her mother is messes with your head? What happens after FIL dies and MIL needs emotional/practical support and plays the diva and suicide card? Do you run and fetch indefinitely? Or become the audience so she can continue playing the diva?

Can you and spouse create an environment to talk about the what ifs and what’s next and boundaries? Or is she also angry, tired, grieving and caught by family history and expectations? In which case, can she get therapy? Or you? (A psychiatrist relative once confided that spouses often come for therapy to deal with the spouse who needs therapy but won’t come.)

I think you and your wife need a Plan A, Plan B and Plan C so Bad Attitude diva can’t destroy your marriage (which could bring her daughter to heel as the FIL replacement — divas need an attending audience).

I leave you the wisdom of a friend: “The more enlightened you are, the greater your responsibility to take the high road.” And my belief that it’s self-empowering to own greater enlightenment but it has to be tempered with self care.

Talk with your spouse about the care each of your feel comfortable - and able - to provide. Develop a plan that works for both of you. Then, let everybody else know what you are able to do. Let others know that any other help will have to be provided for in other ways. Stick with your plan.