Was it abuse?

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Was it abuse?

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Hi everyone.

Mom lived with caregiver (a sister) at time. I had requested an accounting from POA (yet another sister) back in January on my mom’s trust. It was met with a lot of resistance by POA. Caregiver also became irate I asked for it. Caregiver told my mother (stage 6 Alzheimer’s) I was asking for it from POA ONLY. Caregiver got Mom very agitated by involving her verbally. Caregiver had Mom call me and videotaped her leaving me a very distressing message. I was shocked but still, the pushback occurred repeatedly by both POA and caregiver.

After several months, POA relented and told all 6 beneficiaries that accounting will be supplied. I immediately get an email from caregiver with all on cc that said ‘f you...[insert my name].

I never once was impolite with my requests.

Caregiver then tells POA in a broadcast message to either ‘eradicate’ me from the family or Mom must leave. I heard nothing further. I set up a lunch visit with Mom through POA (caregiver didn’t want to deal with me directly ever). I text Mom and tell her I’ll see her on Saturday. My caregiver sister goes berserk. Drives Mom to my sister’s and dumps her and her 2 dogs without warning. Caregiver then sends an email to get mom’s things within 24 hours. Mom was devastated and knew what she had done. Mom didn’t eat for days and was anxious. Crying. I was so angry when I saw what caregiver had done.

Two months later, Mom moves in with POA. She allows caregiver to continue to see Mom. I’m disgusted.

The accounting is still a big secret.

Is what caregiver did abuse? I would say yes. POA says that to not allow her to see Mom would be isolation. Yeah..from an abuser! WTF?

Moms trust is revocable but I understood when she became incapacitated that accounting could be requested. They’re hiding something, obviously, and I can’t get to that until Mom is gone? I know caregiver was being gifted $15000 every 3 months to care for Mom plus charging $1200 rent.

Everyone is scared of caregiver so they say and do nothing. Caregiver has long manipulated and bullied her way through life.

Elder Abuse Elder Law Family Caregiver Power of Attorney (POA)

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The previous caregiver used tactics of a malignant narcissist. Beware of these people. It now all makes sense. My mom is a pawn and her $ is most likely being strong-armed from new DPOA as it was from me. This ‘caregiver’ is not a mentally well person. The best advice I’ve received is to cut ties. There are multiple reasons to do this. My own sanity depends on it. Nobody abuses my mother and then her own
NEW caregiver (DPOA) allows it. If my family are ok with the behavior then it’s on them. I tried. I beat my head against a wall. Read on malignant narcissists. This is my sister (twin). I’m glad she’s no longer sucking mom’s trust dry with her $6K per month payment demands because she was fired from her previous job and deserved the $ because that’s what she was earning in her sales job. Real bad reason to take advantage of $ but she’s a grifter. Has been her whole life.

I don’t have to deal with any of them further and I refuse to feel guilt over protecting MY sanity.

I’ve gone to APS. I’ve gone to police. Our systems are flawed. Families are dysfunctional and they become more so when $ is at stake. I’ve received $0. I didn’t want money when I cared for my mom. I worked AND helped her. I did what I could. Movin’ on.

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I am very relieved for you that you are moving on. There is no amount of money that is worth this sort of torment. You cannot change people. You can only decide whether or not you wish to be involved with them. Wishing you peace moving forward and moving on. If you have made use of all our system has to offer, and to no avail, then honestly there is no other choice than to move away for your own mental health. Try to do so without anger, because anger seldom hurts the "other"; it destroys the angry one from the inside out.
Wishing you peace and good health.

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The POA has no duty to report to other family members. She also has no stipulations that she must NOT report. So the decision whether to supply accounting to you is completely her business. You have no say in it unless you believe that there is fraud going on, in which case you should file in court with your lawyer and you should request guardianship of your mother OR guardianship with the state.
With the level of distress this is causing your mother, were I the judge, the state would take over guardianship of your mother and she would be placed in care.
I just re-read the entire thread with responses. More and more I hope that mother is removed from this drama being the end of her life. To be torn to pieces between these daughters makes me think of a dog pack attack. I hope Mom is removed from the middle of it. I hope the state takes guardianship of this poor Mom. I cannot imagine being her.

I believe that you should take your concerns to a Lawyer if you suspect there is abuse going on. The case will then go before the courts. I believe (I hope) the likely outcome is State Guardianship of your Mom. I believe your Mom will be better off in the hands of the State than she is with the three of you. I am sorry to think that; I think I have never said that to anyone on the forum before.

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If that POA is also the trustee on the trust then they absolutely have a duty to report. They have a fiduciary responsibility to the beneficiaries.

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Met, why do you want this thread to be deleted, when it appears that you are recieving good advice on the info you are providing, somewhat piece meal. We can feel your frustrations over the care of your Mom for sure, but it would seem that you are recieving great support still, from others who have been through similar circumstances, though yours does seem extremely difficult!

Do try to come to some agreement with the DPOA on accountability, but you will recieve more information if you come at it calmly, which I'm sure is hard for you right now. Take a few breaths and write out your questions, submit them calmly and see if that gets you to a better accounting. You were the one who set up the trust, and made plans for your Mom's provisions to last her as long as possible, and you see obvious errors in that. You may need to get a lawyer involved for a forensic accounting, but I don't know how you go about that, hopefully others will pipe in to guide you in this.

Don't run away frustrated, your story has not evolved in a clear time line fashion, as you are clearly frustrated and angry, but let those who can help you, Help You! You will find incredible help here, and you can take away their knowledge and leave out what doesn't apply.

I am sorry you are going through this in a time when it's your Mom who needs you all working together in this. Family and money so often get Crazy at this time of life. The DPOA is clearly not doing their job, and that is not right! Unfortunately the shifting of power and the unfortunate moving your Mom around in your family has only caused this to get really screwed up! Your going to have to do your best to unwind the discrepancies if you can for your Mom's benefit!

Remember how stressful Caregiving is, and things don't always go smoothly. Temperatures rise and people act crazy, I know as it happened in my own family, so I am not pointing fingers, but passing the parent around in the final stages of Dementia is not OK! The poor dear is scared and confused, and everyone needs to take a deep breath and go at this with a cool head! You can unwind this but do it carefully.

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So well and so gently said.

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Met, you are obviously very angry about the situation. With a brief synopsis we are doing what we can to try to help. That is all we can do is tell you our own experiences. Take what you can use and leave the rest.

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Can the admins remove this thread? I asked for an opinion on abuse and got grilled myself. I took care of mom first for free. Three years. I didn’t demand $5K a month. FREE. I worked simultaneously because Mom was stage 3. I did a lot so before accusing me of not doing my part and poor caregiver is suffering stress...forget that. She’s a manipulative abuser. You had to live it. Admins please remove.

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Metmij - I apologize for jumping to the wrong conclusion about your involvement in your mother's care. There were a lot of confusing facts here and your subsequent posts have clarified some of them.

It does seem that your two sisters are not putting Mom's needs first. The money part is still confusing to me. In one post you said it was to spend down, and in others you said it was messing up Medi-cal. I wouldn't think your mother would be eligible for Medi-cal given the amount of assets she has. And it seems with stage 6 alzheimers that it's too late to start spending down to become eligible. If she needs help, she needs it now, not 5 years from now.

It does seem like an outrageous amount of money being charged to the trust for your mother's care, unless the caregiver has to hire in-home help 24/7 to take care of your mother. The POA should not be paying that. Nobody should be telling Mom she doesn't have money. And they should not be entangling her in all the family drama, or dumping her from one house to the other without warning. Or excluding other siblings from visiting with Mom. Your sister obviously should not be using your Mom's money to take trips or pay her own expenses.

The only thing I can think of is for you to apply for guardianship of Mom's assets and/or person. Your sisters would probably fight you tooth and nail, though. That's the problem. Even if we all agree that your Mom is being abused, what can you do about it? Not much unless you're willing to embark on a tough and bitter legal process, unfortunately.

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Thank you. There’s so much history but yes, someone suggested spend down on the trust and it seems POA and other siblings don’t care. When I set up the Trust, I specifically said the half mil was for mom’s care ONLY. One sister (remember I have 4) actually said that current caregiver/POA can take care of Mom ‘with or without money’. Where’s the logic there? How does one take care of paying themselves as a caregiver (which she’s dubbing as ‘retirement’). No caregiver contracts in place. I’ve warned about Medi-Cal and nobody cares. Mom was even cheated out of big tax breaks because of paying ‘under the table’ as last caregiver (evil twin) demanded and the $5K was paid only because twin heard that AL cost that much so she should earn that much. I’m dealing with a narcissist there. Any money spent is invisible and I guess I’ll see when mom dies but I’m guessing I’ll see a lot of cash gifting.

What i I don’t understand is my mother being dumped so quickly and cruelly. She was paying rent on top of her $5K. Her renter’s rights were violated.

They can all go to hell. They’re not understanding the fiduciary responsibility and are depending on state 100% once the $ runs out. Despite me ringing the bell. I’m treated like the black sheep for wanting visibility to accounting. I’m a listed beneficiary. What are they hiding when I’m met with such refusal to oversight? Right. And by the time Mom is dead, I can’t do anything about it. “Money is gone...what you gonna do?”

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I think I understand. Your sister's behaviour, in a number of different ways, was not right and you feel it's time someone did something about it.

The question, of course, is: do what?

She's no longer your mother's caregiver - check.
She can't touch your mother's money - check.
Expenditure that has already taken place must eventually be accounted for; whether that might result in sanctions I can't guess; but in any case you're not really bothered about that, are you? - it's kind of not the point.

Preventing her from having further contact with your mother is problematic, because it's your mother who has a right to contact with her children (whatever one's opinion of those children) and not the other way around. Does she now, generally, distress or harass your mother? If not, and your mother wants to see her, your POA sister is right to allow the visits to continue.

Which doesn't leave you with much in the way of options. What would you *like* to happen?

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It’s the POA’s responsibility to ensure Mom isn’t abused. Not Mom. I’d like POA to put a restraining order on her as anybody would who saw their mother be abused! This person is beyond sick and harassed, attacked, coerced, strong-armed and tried to blackmail me when I was POA to the point I told my other 4 sibs to take POA. I didn’t want to deal with crazy. Threatening me legally for not paying her when she waited 4 months to tell me her salary expectations I repeatedly asked for. She decided to start all that up right between Xmas and new year when banks had no accountant to talk to on gifting and other tax implications. Email after email. Showing up unannounced at my house and refusing to leave. Filming me in my house. My partner’s 5yo son let her in mistakenly. It’s been HELL.

Carefuver

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So, if I understand, you believe that the caregiver's attitude to you since you requested sight of the accounts, which you believe the terms of your mother's trust allow or even require, is the result of overboiling wrath and indignation that the compensation she may have been regularly receiving is being... what, hardly challenged, just... looked at. And some of the overboiling hit your mother.

Is that about it?

Um. I would make considerable allowance for how enraged, defensive and generally explosive a hands-on caregiver can be through stress; but even so her reaction does seem to be an overreaction. Could anybody at any point have suggested that you *intended*, as the object of the exercise, to investigate and challenge what she as paid? - in any sort of forensic way?

To me, the more important question is what you hope or plan to do about this now. Your POA sibling seems to be pouring oil on the troubled waters (goodness, more metaphors, sorry!) quite effectively; would it not be best to allow her to continue that process, in the interests of maintaining your mother's important relationships?

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I took care of Mom 3 years and was the first out of 6 siblings to do so..voluntarily. Free. I know the stress. I was helping Mom. I wasn’t paid or employed by her nor would I dream of asking for $6K per month that will deplete her trust money in a few years. Dumb.

I requested the accounting because POA sent email stating funds from mom’s trust were being used for things such as trips (not with mom), the total of what caregiver was paid for 2018 to see how badly it’s affected medi-cal and yes, caregiver (my twin) became irate. She earned before dumping mom, $6K per mo because she said that’s what AL charges so that’s what she demanded to be paid. Tax-free. She was paid out of mom’s trust by POA. Zero visibility in 2 years on what’s happening there. When I was DPOA, I communicated. It’s called transparency and everyone had a login to the trust account as beneficiaries.

Back to my OP..I believe it was and is abuse.

How can involving your mother in issues she can’t understand AND prompt her to call me to try to explain why she’s upset when she doesn’t know why. Caregiver prompted her. I never run to mommy to hide behind her apron and that’s mental abuse. You’re supposed to protect from that but nobody acts like an adult. I’ve given up on the accounting. Half a million is being given away instead of care for Mom. Gifting to spend down. And if dumping someone you love who doesn’t understand isn’t abuse I don’t know what is. I saw Mom shaking and crying over what caregiver did. Mom wouldn’t eat for days. Mom also thinks she has no money. She’s unaware of the Trust, which I set up. Caregiver is a narcissist bully who was relentless in harassing me. Wouldn’t let me consult a financial advisor and even stormed my house. It was scary. She’s a large person, too. Very aggressive. I stepped down as POA. Caregiver wanted control of the $. Buzz! No. But DPOA lets her bully and walk all over her.

no caregiver contract.
paid $60K / year under table...for what? To screw up medi-cal and cover her own financial shortfalls. She owns a $900K home.

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worried - I agree with that. But she initially said it was her Mom's trust. If the children are beneficiaries only after the Mom dies, I'm not sure they're entitled to an accounting.

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I understand once revocable trustee is incapacitated that accounting may be requested. It sure should be.

I am a beneficiary. I have a right to know how my mothers money is spent. Pushback creates suspicion.

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My mom had a revocable trust, was incapacitated and only after her death was I entitled to see accounting and from only after her death. That still took two years to receive, provided very reluctantly. This is done to eliminate squabbles as long as everyone knows the requirements of the trust.

Hopefully there was a care contract in place and rental agreement. Think about the money this way. Had sis not provided care for mom she would have had to be in a facility at a cost of, likely in excess of 6-8 thousand dollars a month.

And yes the videoed phone call I would consider abuse. But may have been for litigation purposes.

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She received $6K a month because she DEMANDED it from me when I was POA. I was harassed by her relentlessly and told her I’d look into implications (it was xmas) but she couldn’t wait and became crazy.

If she presented the video, I’d reply that caregiver caused that distress AND dialed my number. I never mentioned money to Mom. This is why DPOA is in place. Fiduciary responsibility. Mom doesn’t know how to use a phone. Instigated pawn move by caregiver. Put Mom in the middle to beg me to stop asking for an overview on her half mil? Refusing with vigor by both DPOA AND CAREGIVER. Suspicious. Sick. You also don’t dump your poor confused late stage mom somewhere else without warning!

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Your sister was being paid for caregiving, right? Was a caregiving contract set up?

What do you see wrong with that?

Do you want mom to live with YOU?

What caregiver sister demonstrated was caregiver burnout.

Are you helping with mom's care?

Do you expect other family members to step in and do this for free, while their careers, privacy and family life suffers?

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I took care of my mother for free for 3 years. Got her diagnosed because my 5 siblings stuck their heads in the sand not wanting to know, got her on meds, CT Scans, urologist, various doctors and helped her without asking for a single dime. I didn’t ask for $6K nor would I. That’s taking advantage so she can pay for her house in the California mountains. I DO take issue with her Medi-Cal being messed up due to no caregiver contract or taxes paid!

Fill in in the picture a bit more? Good.

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Okay, I think I need to answer this question with a few of my own. First, if what your sister(s) have done is abuse, what are you prepared to do about it? Take Mom into your own home and care for her full-time? Because if that's not your end game, I think you'd be better off leaving the twisted sisters to their own devices as long as Mom is being cared for by one or the other of them.

Second, does your sister's POA document stipulate that other family members are entitled to an accounting? Because if not, then you really don't have any right to that. You're not a beneficiary of that trust. Mom is.

If you've been reading this forum for long, you will have figured out that hands-on caregivers don't at all appreciate being second-guessed, challenged, or called to account by uninvolved family members.

I would start your next conversation with your sisters by asking them what you can do to help with Mom. I'm guessing that's about all they want to hear from you right now.

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It doesn’t matter if the POA says the OP is entitled to an accounting. Depending on the type of trust and the beneficiaries, the beneficiaries may be automatically entitled to an accounting of the TRUST.

Was it abuse?

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