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LH to me it's really simple. I'm looking at this from your vulnerable FIL's point of view, and the lack of professional insight and input simply means he isn't getting the care he really needs.
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Beatty Apr 2020
Spot on.

In regards to the MIL making decisions to deny Hospice for FIL - You may like this quote I came across;

"Honoring the wishes of a person with capacity demonstrates respect for the individual. Honoring the wishes of a person without capacity is a form of abandonment. The distinction, insofar as it can be reliably made, is critical".
–Linda Farber-Post, clinical ethicist and educator
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LH- Wow! I just read that you told your wife that you reached the end of your ability to help and that she needed to talk to her mother about getting the professional to come and assist. Bravo!

I'm curious though, about your wife's response to what you told her. I really hope she will eventually see that what she's doing is unsustainable, and detrimental to her marriage, and will take steps to rectify the situation both for her parents and for you & her.

So glad you found this forum. I stumbled on this site couple of years ago when I was under so much stress taking care of my Alz. mother. The people here are amazing.

Your wife could really really benefit from joining this forum. Many people here have been there, done that, and know the ropes and are willing to help others.
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LossingHope Apr 2020
Polarbear, Thanks.
Her response was that I, and our dog could move over there. I declined without laughing.
We have a home that I bought, a yard that needs mowed, and a dog that loves his sleeping spot. It is the home that her and I spent our lives in together. I'm not the one that chose to abandon that world for the good of her parents lives.
At this point I've been given a list of things she needs for her new living arrangement, which I will reluctantly provide.
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Lossinghope, you say your wife has never worked outside the home and has always taken on the caretaking roll. She took care of the kids, and now taking care of her parents. Nothing is going to change unless she wants it to change. You can’t make her change. I suggest a marriage counselor. This marriage is working fine for her, but not for you. She sees nothing wrong with living with her parents. If I was living with my parents, my husband would tell me to STAY there. If my husband was living with his parents, I would tell him to STAY there. You can’t change another person, you can only change YOU.
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LossingHope Apr 2020
Understandable. That's basically what I told her today. I added that I really miss her in my world, but... It's her choice.
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Good for you, LH.

The bit I'm cheering loudest about is that you told her what you DO want her to do, and it's achievable, and it's right.

You're being constructive. She may take a little while to grasp the point, but you stick to it, tightly. Well done you!
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LossingHope Apr 2020
I also sent an email to our local VNA. They are already involved as far as visits, baths, and regulating medications. I explained the situation and asked if they would send a social worker in to begin the conversation. I debated doing so, because it could create hard feelings between us. I hope that this is one of those times that we can look back on, and she'll see my reasons, and understand that I was acting in her interest, not my own selfishness. I'll update you all when/if this progresses.

You are all awesome !!! Thanks for the support from everyone. It's like having invisible friends that care.
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LH, we here mostly subscribe to the idea that we each can only change our own behaviors, not the behavior of others. By making a small change in your own behavior, this house of cards will at least shift.

No, you don't feel good. Saying "no" to someone we love rarely does. But sometimes it must be done. You've taken the first step toward a more honest relationship.

MIL probably has some level of cognitive decline. She may not agree to any changes. The thing is, of course, can your wife see her way clear to say "no more" or something like that to her mom?. As adults, we don't always need to accede to the demands of our parents.
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LossingHope Apr 2020
BB, thanks.
I have compared it in my mind to correcting a child. They often guilt you into feeling bad, but when you're right, your right. It does them no good to coddle and appease.
I just want to say again, typing out my thoughts and receiving valuable information from folks living with, or having past experience in these situations has been liberating. I'm still sad, but hope is in sight.
Thank you all so very much.
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I read in this thread that you are thinking it’s best to bring them into your home; that this will somehow improve the situation. Nothing could be further from the truth. You already describe your situation, at least the way I’d describe it, as standing in front of the gates to hell. Bringing them to your home is akin to popping open the latch and heading straight in. Please don’t do that. There are many, many better options for all, as others have described. Scrap that plan now.
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LossingHope Apr 2020
I agree, and thanks for your input , that was just silly talk. :)
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Our parents don't have an expiration date ... Getting to 91 and 94 in age is an accomplishment of its own. I have been a part of this forum for a few months and I am reading how getting older is such a burden. I would love for my husband and I to simply take our next step "into eternity" with not bothering anyone. We would hate to think we would disrupt, cause stress and create such turmoil. I wonder how we will feel if we get to the 90's? My husband and I will soon be 80 and 69 and we are experiencing decline of our health and mind. Perhaps.....we can die before we become that burden.

Find a way to help your wife and support her decision. Honor Her. Send flowers, her favorite treats - make sure you show your love. Arrange a date - find a way to find someone to also be a caregiver. I have always been told that men love to solve problems, they love the challenge - so look at your situation and be proud that your wife loves her parents and wish to honor them.

On this site, Aging Care, look for "Find Care" and be part of the solution. Hire someone to do yard work - Bring someone to help care for both houses. Be creative, Introduce caregivers slowly - or other family members.

Your wife can learn to be assertive - not aggressive - and delegate some of the caregiving. See if her parents qualify for assistance with local Agency on Aging. I think you might be feeling your pain from the loss of your Mom, the absence of your wife, and knowing her parents aren't getting any younger. You are experiencing what caregivers go through - now find a way to get you and your wife to "go for walks" and spend couple time. Life is too short - find a way to relieve the stress.

Remember all the good memories and find strength to move forward to be a supporting family member. As far as being "selfish" I believe you are feeling helpless to help make the situation better. Introduce your wife to this forum, and seek outside counselling if things don't change. May the days ahead find you with answers - solutions. It takes guts to put your feelings out in this forum.
Go to "Care Topics" at the top right of Aging Care - look under the topics, I just did and I know you'll find additional help to guide you. Be safe and Take Care. Not everyone is a caregiver - but everyone should know they can't do it alone.
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LossingHope Apr 2020
Find a way to help your wife and support her decision. Honor Her. Send flowers, her favorite treats - make sure you show your love. Arrange a date - find a way to find someone to also be a caregiver. I have always been told that men love to solve problems, they love the challenge - so look at your situation and be proud that your wife loves her parents and wish to honor them.

So true. Solution is my middle name !!
I learned early in our marriage that fixing usually isn't what is needed. It's more about listening.
Now it is her turn to listen.
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Lossinghope, WOW! Your wife is being ordered about by a 94 year old mom that has had a stroke, which causes mental decline, had a broken shoulder and hospitalization which causes mental decline. She is showing 2 siblings that have mental health issues that she is stronger than them. She is not calling in hospice for a dying bed bound dad.

My 1st question for her, please ask her and tell me what she says. Why do you hate your dad so much that you would let him needlessly suffer?

2nd question. Why are you listening to a woman that finds his suffering a source of humor? Has your mom always felt that others hurting is funny?

3rd question. Do you really think that your siblings will see you as stronger? Are you sure they are not laughing at you and saying look how stupid she is, she is ruining her health, her life, her marriage and we get a bigger inheritance for her destroying herself, she thinks she is smarter, stronger and look what she has done because we refuse to be sucked in?

Being stronger doesn't mean being a martyr. It means being able to do what is required, regardless of the kick back from anyone. Being stronger isn't required to be proved, it shows up in the very actions that she is not doing. She is being weak because she is letting her mom, who is not capable, make life altering decisions. If she was truly strong she would put her foot down and insist that hospice be brought in to help her dad. If she was strong she would put her foot down and tell her mother that she will have someone in everyday to help or she will go to a facility. Whine, moan, groan and resist all you want mommy dearest, but you have 2, that's all, 2 choices: a paid care giver for 4 to 8 hours a day or a facility.

This isn't about not helping them. She will still be there everyday, but she will have time to have a life for herself and not have to ask you to step in. You two could go have lunch or take walks, talk, whatever, just spend some time together. She could step back enough to really assess the situation daily.

I am very concerned that she has had a stroke herself, her behavior is not the behavior of a sound minded person. Her decisions and motivations are not logical. She is not seeing the reality.

I am not judging her, I am serious about her having a medical crisis of her own. The things that you have said are very concerning to see when you are not sitting in the middle of them.

One thing that you could do for her, that might change the situation. You call and schedule the in home health care for daily aids, you do the interviews and read the contracts and make the decision which one is the best deal.

You call and schedule hospice, non-profits tend to be kinder, you meet with them when they come out to do the assessment, you read all the paperwork.

You write your wife a letter and explain what you felt about hospice and how you can now see the truth.

Everyone blames hospice for overdosing their loved ones, but you don't have to let anyone give the meds, she can be the only one that administers the medication. Not even the nurses need to be administering the medication. She doesn't have to give up control.

Hospice would send out a chaplain that could help your wife understand that she is losing her parents and help her cope with that fact. It may not be for years, but she does need some coping skills.

When you say that you work 10-12 hours everyday and hours on the weekends, do you realize that your wife probably doesn't feel like you are really connected as a couple. That's a lot of hours and doesn't leave much time for anything else, including her. Perhaps she figures you won't miss her anyway. Or maybe you will only miss her being your personal "assistant". Not saying you ignore her, but it's something that you should really look at and be honest with yourself about what it is you really miss and what it is that she has to miss about her home life and marriage.
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LH, I'm going to suggest that you read this:

https://www.agingcare.com/discussions/disheartened-and-angry-428711.htm?orderby=recent

Start at the beginning and see how one daughter in law learned how to say "no" to her husband and his crazy family. Not at all the same situation as yours, but there are some good lessons in boundary setting.

Also consider that MIL's stroke may have led to the onset of vascular dementia, meaning that her reasoning skills may no longer be intact.
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LossingHope Apr 2020
BB,
I drew the line today. She asked me when I thought she could get out of there for a couple hours to go home, take a shower, and see our dog.
I replied. "Whenever you can have a conversation with your mother about getting professional help to take over their care for at least a couple hours so you can have a small piece of your life back. I have reached the end of my abilities to help in this capacity. If your siblings can stand in the shadows and not lift a finger, I will not feel bad about my inabilities to provide."
I feel very guilty. I feel sorry for my wife. I have put the weight on her, and she must shift some to her mom. I did not say I wouldn't do the shopping, or stop by to visit, but I drew the line as far as taking responsibility for the care of people that I don't belong to.
Do I feel better? Nope. Here's hoping that I have done what is right.
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LossingHope, the lockdown puts an unfortunate pause on things. Is it possible to call the other siblings and make specific requests for help? Often, this gets people involved. Saying "We need help" is too broad and those who are not in the thick of caregiving have no idea what to do. Also, it is a difficult truth that they are under no obligation to enter the caregiving circus your wife has constructed (either hands-on or financially). She (and, unfortunately, you) must live with this -- for now.

In a calm moment, in a calm and gentle way you must have a conversation with your wife reminding her that your marriage is first priority and the caregiving cannot realistically go on without permanently damaging it, exhausting the both of you, etc.

Your wife needs help to see that her mom probably has cognitive decline herself, hence her inappropriate attitude towards her husband's condition. There is no visible line when people slide into dementia. It happens in increments and this is probably why your wife can't/won't see it for what it is.

You are not being selfish. Your wife is distraught by the reality of her parents' decline and trying to be a "fixer". She needs help getting her priorities straight and setting boundaries. If I were you I'd have a family meeting with the other siblings and inform them that after the lockdown the care arrangement will be changing and that you and your wife will no longer be doing it. Their input will guide further decisions and actions. If they don't like the inconvenient fact that the caregiving will be changing, then you and your wife can serve them up the opportunity to step forward to participate. If they don't accept then you two will know which direction to go and the need to pursue other options.

I sincerely hope your wife will be able to see reality and have peace in her heart to make some difficult changes.
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Have your wife share a few hospice benefits with her mother to get help for dad. Hospice in home does not mean he will die tomorrow. My cousins husband graduated from Hospice after 18 months. A 103 year old just came off hospice recently.
I was reluctant at first but my mom has been on hospice since the day before Christmas.
They can treat your dad incase the hallucinations are a bad UTI, if not its a good chance he is nearing the end. If that turns out to be the case your better off having Hospice on board if he passes. They can provide so many tools. Hoyer lift for one. The hospice ones are not as big as the homes use. Hospital beds. Safes your back. Pressure pads for the beds. Water proof pads for the bed. Diapers, depends, barrier creams, meds for your dad. Someone to bath him up to 3 times a week. Maybe she could say mom if we get hospice care for dad, I can better take care of your needs. For your mom get a telephone doctors appointment and get physical therapy in to evaluate her. If mom stays in bed to long she will never get out again. Before I get mom up each morning we do knee bends and leg lifts. Mom took to the bed in January with tummy issues. I did these exercises daily. After a week she got up with the walker and still had leg strength. Order a back brace off Amazon. I wish you the best and hope things improve.
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LH; another question. Your wife doesn't work outside the home? Did she give up a paying position to wait on her parents?
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LossingHope Apr 2020
Nope. She has been mother, and housewife for 30 years. All we've lost is each other.
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I think that most of us go into caregiving and support roles for caregiving pretty naive. We think that we know what we're getting into but we don't know until we're in it. Something that my husband and I learned is that we didn't really know what some of our limits were until they were crossed.

So those thoughts might be a place for you to start the conversation with your wife. Acknowledge that her journey into caregiving was started with the best of intentions, but neither of you knew then all that you know now. You didn't know your limits until things went past them. She may then be able to admit that she too is pushed past her limits. Then the conversations about where to go next can happen.

Leave the non-participating family members out of the discussion. If they haven't stepped up yet, they likely won't. Thinking that they might insures a plan that will fail.

Best wishes. It's a rough journey.
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Losing, I am very sad to hear about your wife's disordered thinking.

She is fighting some sort of childhood battle that exists in her head. She is attempting to gain "best child" status from her parents. It's beyond disturbing.

Grownups who are mentally healthy don't abandon their lives when elderly mom calls with an emergency. They may fly there initially, prop things up and then arrange the proper level of care so that life can go on. They don't abandon their own ship.

Was the dislocated shoulder treated? Did mother go to rehab to get strong before she went home?

Many, many years ago, my grandmother broke her hip. Had surgery, but was bed bound. Told all her friends "I'mgoing to be an invalid; my daughters will care for me".

My aunt worked full time with 3 school aged kids. My mom had 3 of us, including a 2 year old, at home.

Grandma was told in kind but certain terms that she was going to rehab to learn to walk again. She pouted. She wailed. She went.

She never really forgave my mom. My mom's attitude was "we got her what she needed, not what she wanted or demanded". There was no way that mom or Aunt was going to be turned into gma's nursemaid.

Which is what your wife has become. Very sad situation.
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Another thought, sorry! (btw I am kind of living in a similar version of this..)

I must do all the care.
I can arrange all the care.

Only two words differ but it's a big mental leap.

I will do what Mother wants because I love her.

I will do what Mother needs because I love her.

Just one word differs.
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No it's not sound thinking imo. Need some good ole practical Aunt's advice...

I've said it before (& to myself!!) Time for the *Common Sense Hat*.

You have one - but your wife is wearing, what? *Matriarch Rules* hat.

It's a house of cards. You support your Wife to support her parents. If you say STOP, no more. I don't agree. The house of cards might just break. Your Wife will still be helping her parents, but with even less help for herself - she will crumble.

I think you really want to avoid the rift that may cause between you plus of course the negative health effects to all.

So you need a less drastic path. Talks so far haven't worked - can she see your point of view at all? Or sees it but doesn't agree?

A sit down chat with a mediator - someone impartial to help you both. (eg Church rep, Social Worker).
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Your wife is doing this "noble" thing to prove to her siblings that she's stronger than they are??? The two with "mental issues"?

And you you think that's "sound thinking"?

Your mother in law's lack of insight into what this is doing to her daughter's health is what is selfish here. Not your wanting to protect your wife.

What's the plan for when wife collapses? That's the real question. Notice I said "when" and not "if".
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LossingHope Apr 2020
"Your wife is doing this "noble" thing to prove to her siblings that she's stronger than they are??? The two with "mental issues"?"

Exactly.
She has it in her mind that she/we will show everyone (siblings) that she is a stronger person than any of them. The mental issues I mentioned are depression, and bi-polar.
The local sister can go from quoting bible verses, and being irritatingly giddy, to downright violent anger. She was a social worker by trade, so she is "more educated than anybody on these matters", but to protect her mental health, she can't be a part of the care of her parents.
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LH - why, can't your MIL get out of bed? What's wrong with 'er?
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LossingHope Apr 2020
Good question Cm.
Besides being 91 and worn out from taking care of her husband for 73 years, she dislocated her shoulder in November trying to get off the toilet. She was in severe pain, and I think she's afraid to do anything now that may cause a repeat.
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Be prepared for the possibility of taking over the care of both your in laws ...because at this rate, your wife will die before her parents. & with the virus, funeral homes are overwhelmed. Yes, I’m betting your wife will die before her parents . I take care of my 93 yo mother with dementia. & I also have a part time private pay caregiver. & I’m not working my part time job since the virus...I don’t know how your wife hasn’t cracked up yet. I always feel sorry for myself & then I find someone else who has it worse....your wife. Get hospice now . Hugs 🤗
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Beatty Apr 2020
A colleague's Brother was full-time carer for Mother with dementia (I'm never going into a home, I'll never get help in). Before work, pop ins, prepare dinner, after dinner, shopping, appointments, outings etc.

His wife was being asked to step in more & more too. She eventually said no - I don't agree. It's time for care.

The Brother died recently of a sudden massive heart attack. He was 50s, maybe 60.

Brother's wife called Social Services who promptly arranged some sort of emergency care. Mother would call her son's number every day & night.. when is my son coming? I need him. Was told daily he died - this awful news repeated each day to new grief for Mother & added trauma for Wife.

Mother now lives in a Memory Care home (& loves all the 'nice ladies' who help her).

I am not the only person to know stories like that one.
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Oh my goodness lossinghope, you are so young!! 52 is very young. I’m assuming your wife is around your age? Your wife is being selfish to you by moving in with her parents. Please talk to a therapist. You can talk to one by telepath or FaceTime. That’s what I do. You can’t talk to a therapist in their office because of the corona virus. You and your wife need to enjoy life!! Enjoy taking a vacation!! Please talk to your wife about getting your in laws into a facility or have home health aids come to their house. My 95 1/2 year old mother refuses to leave her home. With the corona virus she can’t get into one right now anyway. But I am not her caregiver and I can’t make her get help. I only go over to her house once a week and my son goes over to her house 2 or 3 times a week to bring in her mail, take out her garbage and go grocery shopping. My son has high functioning autism and is not working right now so he doesn’t mind going over to help his grandma. She’s always been so good to him and she pays him for running on errands for her. I had to step out of helping her because she wouldn’t let me help her. You can’t help someone who doesn’t want to be helped. OMG NO!!!! Do not bring your in laws into YOUR home!!! That will be a disaster and you will regret it!!! I just read that you want to bring them in YOUR home. Don’t do it!! Trust me. You will regret that decision!!! You won’t have ANY privacy and they both will be in you and your wife’s home 24 hours a day 7 days a week!!!! No privacy. No getting any respite. Don’t do it.
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"I completely agree that my wife's obligation to me should outweigh the one she has for her elderly parents. I am going to continue trying to plead with my wife, and then progress to MIL. In the end, I'll most definitely be resented by my wife."

Losing, I understand that I am being very aggressive in my responses. I want to wake you up to what it happening.

What you wrote above, is THAT your definition of a "strong" marriage? This sounds like a marriage with little to no true communication and very little honesty.

Find yourself a teletherapist, at the very least and work out what your true feelings are. Then communicate with your wife.
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LossingHope Apr 2020
Well, I thought it was a strong marriage. I admit that doubt has crept in.
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Losing, one more thing. I hope you are speaking to a therapist about this situation.

You have been backed into a corner of a "false choice", i.e., Hospice or your wife's full time care. There are many, many other options here and your wife's exhaustion and depression are preventing her from thinking clearly.

I do believe that if you were a woman posting this, we would tell you to take a vacation and let your wife sink or swim with her choice.
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Lets go back to the beginning here.

Your wife is single handedly taking care of two elderly people, one who is entirely bedridden and one who feels entitled to ask for the moon?

Your wife may well die before her parents.

Why is there no outside help coming in? Not hospice, regular home health aides, paid for with the elder's respurces?
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Beatty Apr 2020
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Your wife, in an effort to 'do the right thing' for her parents, is 'doing the wrong thing' for herself, for her father, and more importantly, for YOU. Why is it that only one person's feelings is being taken into consideration here: her mothers'?

The one to draw a line in the sand here is YOU, my friend. Let your wife know your innermost feelings and then set down some boundaries. It's not okay that she's moved in with her folks. It's not okay that you've taken the weight of the world on your shoulders as a result. It's not okay that you've lost your wife who now has a hero complex the size of Detroit and can no longer see The Big Picture. The Big Picture is that dad needs hospice and comfort care; that mom is minimizing dad's pain & discomfort because she's in deep denial about how sick he REALLY is and what help he TRULY needs. My mother said my father was 'faking' his pain right up until the moment he died 5 years ago. But she's not faking HER pain or misery 5 years later. She, by the way, lives in a Memory Care home where she belongs, catered to by a staff who waits on her hand and foot, so her daughter (me) and her son-in-law isn't suffering that incredible load.

Another part of the Big Picture for your wife is placement for both of her parents, or at least in home care for them so she can get back to HER life with YOU. If she refuses to see reality here, then you may have to refuse to give her respite any longer. If you want a break, hire someone honey, I've got way too much on my plate already!

Dying at home is a selfish desire, and one that's reliant on others to be realized. You and your wife BOTH have to be willing to accommodate your in-law's desires here in order for them to be able to die at home. That's NOT always possible or even prudent, depending on how sick they get. Your MIL is making believe SHE'S not sick, which isn't the case EITHER! Hospice is always a wonderful idea so there's a qualified set of eyes and hands available to help out when the going gets tough, which it always does. Whether MIL wants their involvement or not isn't as important as what's NEEDED here. She's asking your wife to put herself in a TERRIBLE situation, willingly, and for no good reason, either! Her father deserves a peaceful and pain free end to his life, as any rational person would agree.

Your wife is in too deep now and can't see the forest through the trees. Talk turkey to her NOW. You deserve to take your life back and so does SHE!

Wishing you the best of luck.
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When the word Hospice is used the first thing people think is death within 6 months. Criteria changed a few years back.

Your wife must see Dad is suffering. When receiving home Hospice, the Caregiver still needs to be there 24/7. Nurse and aide only come about 3x a week. Nurse to take vitals and check on Meds. Aide to bath and sit with parents so wife can run some errands. Nurse is available 24/7 by phone.

I don't think your going to change your wifes mind. She feels she needs to be there and Mom is being stubborn and taking advantage because at 94 she probably feels entitled. Not taking into consideration that her daughter is a Senior too. I do think someone needs to make Mom understand that her husband needs help. Get Hospice in for him and have them unknowingly take care of her too.

I know, your angry that you are in this situation. You should be enjoying retirement. But, you don't want your wife resenting you. For now, support her. You can have boundries. Mowing the lawn is one. My DH is 73 and taking care of one lawn is enough. Your inlaws will just have to hire someone.

The next time one of them is in the hospital and goes to rehab, tell your wife to let them be transferred to LTC. At least Dad will be made more comfortable. If Mom bulks, then wife only has one to care for. There's Medicaid.
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LossingHope Apr 2020
JoAnn, I'm not retired. I'm 52 so I have a good 15 years before retirement is on the table. I am self employed and work 10-12 hours a day 5 days a week, and a couple hours over the weekend completing paperwork.
I thank you for your perspective of supporting my wife. That's different advice than I've received here thus far. I can only say that after six months of supporting, I'm running out of motivation, and my relationship with my wife is taking some hits. It seems like my feelings are not important and the angry/tired me is becoming the norm.
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Losing, I want to clarify that your MIL is refusing Hospice for FIL, not for herself, yes?

Your wife thinks that leaving her marital home and living full time with her parents is her duty? Then this is not about MIL, except to the extent that she raised an enmeshed daughter.

Most of us believe that our first obligation is to our minor children and our spouses.

I'm pretty sure that your wife is too exhausted to think straight right now. And getting respite care for FIL is probably not possible right now.

Yes, start the conversation about your further thoughts on hospice to lay the groundwork for decisions that will need to be made down the road.
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LossingHope Apr 2020
Hello Barb.
It's complicated. My FIL and MIL as far as I know they were both offered hospice. MIL had a stroke about 2 months ago from which she fully recovered. While being hospitalized for treated of the stroke the doctors found "abnormalities" in her joints.
Knees, shoulders, and hips. They wanted to proceed with tests to determine if it was cancer. She refused those tests. She is assuming the worst of course, but doesn't want to know the truth. We know her PCP diagnosed Osteoporosis years ago. As mentioned before, she doesn't understand things, and interprets them to her own intellect, which is shallow at best.

I completely agree that my wife's obligation to me should outweigh the one she has for her elderly parents. I am going to continue trying to plead with my wife, and then progress to MIL. In the end, I'll most definitely be resented by my wife.
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Dear LossingHope,
Your screen name saddens me. The worse thing a person can feel is loss of hope. I've read all the responses you've gotten and I'll offer my 2 cents. It's true, your MIL is not the problem. Your wife is enabling her. Your MIL doesn't want hospice because that implies end of life for her. You say she can't perform most activities of daily living, but has she been diagnosed with a debilitating disease where her life expectancy is less than 6 months? If not, she won't qualify for hospice anyway, but she could receive palliative care which is not end of life care.

You want to support your wife because you made a promise 30 years ago "for better or worse". So did she! I can't believe she actually moved in with her parents. She didn't make a commitment to her mother, she made it to you.

It's not the drs that need to draw a line in the sand, once again, it's you! You must have a serious conversation with your wife whether she wants to or not to express your feelings and let her express her's. Do you have a church? If so, make an appointment with your pastor to discuss the situation.

Who's caring for your father in law? Does he have hospice? I would hope so. Maybe the agency's social worker would speak to you and your wife.

Call your state Dept. of Aging. They, too, have social workers who can meet with you and your wife.

I wish you luck. Please reach out to your pastor, palliative/hospice agencies and your state depts. for help. These quorums are helpful, but you need more.
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LossingHope Apr 2020
Thanks for the kind words sjplegacy. My wife is caring for FIL & MIL.

She is patient and loving with him. She's a really great woman, which explains why I miss her so much.
Her Dad not only has dementia, he's also deaf, but she will sit and listen to his sometime incoherent ramblings just like they are having a normal conversation. It's really sad to see.

This hit home.
(You want to support your wife because you made a promise 30 years ago "for better or worse". So did she! I can't believe she actually moved in with her parents. She didn't make a commitment to her mother, she made it to you.)

What a mess this whole thing is. There is no hospice for either of them. They do have visiting nurses coming in to take blood and do the baths them, but there again, my MIL complains that having nurses everyday is too hectic, and she wishes they would just go away.
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*noble, honorable, and kind* Yes it is. But sometimes it is *fear, obligation and guilt*. (Google F.O.G. if you haven't heard this one).

You know the frog story? Your wife jumped into the pot (to help her parents), brought you along & you are now both neck deep in boiling water, about to boil or drown. You want to jump out but she's staying put - cooking away without realising it.

This has happened to many many others. But there are also many paths out.

What's the outcome you would like to see?
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LossingHope Apr 2020
Thanks. I do know the frog story, and it fits perfectly. I jumped out of the pot when I realized that our initial goal to care for her folks ultimately became a condition of obligation. I'm trying to get my wife out now.

Outcome? Good question.
I would like for my MIL to wake up and understand what she is doing to my wife and I. She has become entirely dependent on us, and she see's nothing wrong. As someone said before, this is the new normal for her. She comes from a time when people took care of their own.
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One thing at a time.

The doctors and nurses can't draw a line in the sand because it is not their line to draw. Informed consent is the basis of all health care practice, and it remains your MIL's decision to accept, await or reject hospice/palliative care options.

I was contemplating this very issue as part of my online training in end of life care this morning: one aspect which, I felt, is simply not being addressed. If informed consent is the basis, where does that leave everyone if the information itself is rejected, ignored or beyond the intellectual capability (as opposed to mental capacity) of the decision-maker? I don't have an answer, of course - I just think it's a point for discussion which, however, seems not to be generally discussed. From observation I feel that a good deal of lip service is paid to informed consent, particularly in circumstances where everyone is carefully not saying "the patient is a bit thick."

And again, there is mendacity. I had a conversation with a client's GP about worrying symptoms which have persisted for several days. The client told the GP absolute taratiddles which directly contradicted what she had just said to me, not ten minutes previously. The doctor knew she was withholding information. I knew she was. The client knew I knew she was. I found myself saying "she asked me to call you because you might be able to do something about the pain - that she has just denied having..!" - and then broke into laughter which probably sounded hysterical, but I'm sure the doctor understood. Nevertheless his hands were tied. The patient had told him she was fine. Nobody can have been satisfied with this outcome, but it's the client's/patient's pain, and those were her choices to make.

Moving on. The problem is your wife. Not your MIL.

She is disabling her mother.
She is failing to safeguard her father, while aware that his needs are unmet.
She is ignoring her parents' need for a considered assessment of their situation leading to effective support for them both individually and as a couple.

So, with the very best and most noble of intentions, she is frankly making a right pig's breakfast of looking after her parents as they approach end of life care. And that's without taking your wellbeing into account at all.

Your being selfish, then, as you see, isn't even a question. The need for something to change arises from concern for the elders' welfare. Apart from her mother, who does your wife listen to? Whose advice will she heed?

One more thing to mull over - do you have any thoughts about why your wife is responding in this way? Anything she's afraid of, or bad experiences? She's right to respect her mother's wishes, I don't quarrel with that; but she also needs to put them in context and make them practically realisable. Otherwise that respect becomes meaningless.
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LossingHope Apr 2020
Thank you Countrymouse,
I'm glad I decided to post here. You've all been very helpful. This has made me realize that I'm not alone in this even though it's the loneliest I've been in all my years.
"beyond the intellectual capability" perfectly describes my MIL.
She is a wonderful lady, but... not all that sharp.
You hit on something with your question about who my wife listens to and possibly her influence on her mom with personal feelings about hospice. I lost my mom to cancer a little over three years ago. She died at home with hospice involved. I came out of that situation with a fair amount of disdain for the hospice process with their Morphine, & Ativan cocktail. The last week or so of her life was a comatose state of being. I came away feeling like the hospice nurse was the instrument of death, and not the cancer.
I've since change my viewpoint. My mom could have agonized for months waiting for the cancer to destroy her instead of the morphine overdose. In hindsight, the morphine was the most peaceful route. My wife likely remembers my original opinion. I was hurting and mournful after the lose of my mom, and looking for someone to be mad at. Surely my wife remembers my pain more than my eventual change of heart. ?? I will speak to her on this. Maybe she has been an influence on her mother ??

Again, thank all of you that have cleared the haze I've been in lately. You are all good people.
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I have a suggestion...is there any room in your in-laws house for a live-in assistant? Many people are struggling and alone yet young enough to take care of others. They would love to live rent free - with a small amount of pay and free food in exchange. Everyone needs a day off and your wife could JUST do that day or two per week. Just a thought. Prayers for all of you to get this worked out.

My experience: We had an in-law apartment built onto the side of our house when we moved to Colorado from PA. My mom and dad wanted to move here so they put the down payment on the house. When my parents were both alive and well, they lived well in the apt with own furnace, a/c and their own outside door. When it was just my mom she was fine for a long time. When she started failing, some health issues set in. A doctor gave her Ativan that made her nuts...which I recommend no one ever, ever take...and she would wake each night dreaming about her dead brothers and sisters. Her strength went down hill and instead of me being her main caregiver, I hired people who came at 6 pm - they slept over on a living room pull out bed - helped her undress and dress in the morning and gave her breakfast. They left and since I worked from home, if mom needed me, I could help. I gave caregivers a list of what needed to be done and mom loved the company and the assistance. One came from an agency when husband and I needed to be away for a week - would of loved to have her as mom's roomate but her employee contract would not allow it. She did explain that she sold her house and had a small bedroom at her son's home. Then in order to have her own life, she did caregiving for an agency and tried to do as many 24 hr shifts as she could just to not be a burden on his family's privacy. There are good people out there. If you get a live-in, have the rest of the family chip in for the costs of keeping your wife's parents at home. It really means a lot to daughters to keep their parents in their home but her parents need so much in a day/night, something has to change.
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