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So, yes, they are on the property, but I can promise he will never access them. IMy father has a 40 by 60 shop that I store my 1995 Chrysler Lebaron in out of the weather. It is blocked in by a non-running tractor which he parked there to work on just before the encephalitis. I put them in the trunk, made sure my trunk wouldn't open from the inside latch by the driver seat, and took my key back home. Even if I wanted to open it, I would have to drive all the way across town to get the key which is in my safe. Also, he doesn't go to the shop anymore because he says we don't let him do anything. I know better than to put it anywhere he actually could possibly access
A number of people have mentioned theft on here - theft is to remove someone's property with the intention of depriving them of it permanently. Hiding something or taking it away for safety won't be regarded as theft by any enforcement authority - they will be only to pleased to assist in removal and taking the flak for doing so. Don't worry that anyone is going to prosecutor you for theft when being responsible. The more answers I have read to this the more draconian my view had become - he could be a danger to himself or others, take them away, lock in a sfae deposit box in a bank if of value or surrender to local police and simply tell him you do not have guns in YOUR house. Glad we don't have this one to deal with, - someone has stolen my kettle doesn't have quite the same issues somehow.
I agree about not allowing a person who is cognitively impaired to have any firearm, no matter if disabled. What if he went behind your back and had it restored or traded it for a functional one? There are so many variables, that I would be afraid to toy with it. And, I wouldn't just hide them on his property. Your SECOND post says that you put the guns away in a place that he doesn't know about. To me, that is not the same as having them off the property. Even with dementia, he could inexplicably locate the guns through exploration. Too risky. If you feel unsure, seek legal opinion from an attorney or consult with law enforcement.
You won't make him understand why he can't have the guns anymore, if he is not able to process it. And, even if you came up with an explanation that he did accept, he'd forget it and you'd have to repeat it over and over. That's the nature of dementia. Until they are out of the stage of challenging, protesting and resisting measures of care and safety, it's a full time job to ensure their safety, provide them reassurance and keep them protected.
While I applaud your effort to keep an operational gun out of the hands of someone incapable of making a rational decision, please take note that if your father was to at anytime point the gun at someone there could be repercussions even if it was not operational. On top of that what if he was to point it at a police officer, that could be disastrous for your father. It would be a horrible thing if he was to get shot by someone who thought their life was in danger at that moment. Just my 2 cents.
Cindy, thank you (and the others) for posting this. What you said is exactly the way I feel. Anyone with any cognitive impairment at all should not be allowed to touch a gun, unloaded or disabled. If I had a family member with cognitive issues who was in possession of any firearms, I would absolutely confiscate them and worry about police reports for theft they could possibly file later.
I have no advice about stratgies to make the guns safer. But I'm certain others here have said the same: Unfortunately, there is no getting him to understand, really. Not for the long term. You may find a way to reach him momentarily, but it will likely come back, as fresh and brand new as if you've never had the conversation. The past 3 years caring for my mother have been an adventure, and from her point of view, I'm always butting in, finances, home maintenance and repair, her health. And I've fully accepted her unhappiness about it all. I've learned to 1) do the right thing (whatever it is in whatever situation), 2) let her fuss out her frustration and even anger, and 3) try not to take it personally, don't engage arguments, let it roll off and keep pushing, because of item 1. If she gets too spicy, I tell her firmly that's not nice, don't speak like that, but just go about my business. Wishing you strength, patience, and luck!
This reminds me: When my daughter (lifelong sleep talker and sleep walker) was pregnant with her first child, she would sometimes get up in the middle of the night and start yelling at her husband. He was laughing about one of her more fiery rants, when I asked him, “______, where is your gun?” I remember that his eyes got big, and he said, “In the night stand.” I told him to take it out of there and hide it. He did.
My husband is a Marine Corps Vietnam Vet.He has an extensive rifle & pistol collection.Approx 12 rifles are in a locked glass display cabinet in his man cave & the pistols are in the locked bottom drawer.The rest are on the walls.He’s been an avid hunter since he was a teen. He was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s in 7/17.I hid the keys to the cabinet as well as the duffel bag of ammo in the shed.He’s since has had a stroke so he could never make it out there.He was LIVID that I hid the keys ! He said I stole his property ! I told him that I overheard him on the phone telling his Marine buddy that he “ may as well take a bullet & end it all !” I confronted him with that & he said he was only kidding,that he would NEVER do that ! I said that I cannot be sure ! I hid the application for his soon to expire CWP that came in the mail.He wondered why he didn’t receive it & kept hounding me to take him to the Courthouse to pick one up.I kept making excuses & we’ve never made it there.We live in the woods in an isolated area & I used to feel very safe because I knew he had a pistol in his nightstand & bureau,but now I feel vulnerable & afraid.His gun collection is his pride & joy.I feel that if I call the State Troopers they will take them away.I don’t want to damage them in any way to dismantle them.They are worth a lot of money.I told our son that we are going to buy a heavy gun safe & store them in his house.My husband knows nothing about this plan.Anytime I bring up his diagnosis he refuses to listen.He gets mad at me.I tell him to call the Neurologist ! His beloved Jeep is kept at our son’s house.Better out of sight.I keep telling him he needs to use it because his car is broken.He feels that everything has been taken from him & it’s true.He can’t even fish anymore.He does nothing but eat,sleep,& watch TV.It’s awful to see such a vibrant man deteriorate before my eyes.But I’m just doing things for both of our safety.He doesn’t understand,he thinks he’s fine & that I am bossing him around.It’s a sad existence for both of us.I finally got an aide a couple of days a week so that I can get out & run errands & retain some sanity.Good luck to all of you gun owner’s partners ! It is a very difficult thing to deal with.
My husband has Alzheimer's. He would wave his guns around, all the time telling me he knew what he was doing. (he didn't) I solved the problem by removing the firing pins and letting him have the guns.
I don't know the answer here but if you choose to let a gun either pin removed or unloaded in the house let his local police department know. It may depend on the area he lives in, a smaller town and department is likely to be better than a big city for this but having been a police & 911 dispatcher I can tell you that it is often possible and appreciated by the department for them to make a note of it either on their computer screen or wherever they do it and inform the officers so if there is a call to his house the dispatcher would remind the officers who had already be told that he has some medical issues and while he has a gun it is not operational or a threat. You might even give them a good description of the gun so that if he is wielding it in his demented state they know it is the gun he was expected to have.
The other person you might ask to be the first to bring it up is his PC or neurologist. Just a thought.
My grandfather with dementia gave up driving with not too much of a fight. But he remained mad about us taking the guns out of the house until the day he died.
He had macular degeneration too, and the dementia caused him to hallucinate. He thought people were looking in the windows. One time called the cops because “there’s people dancing on the roof”. At first we thought we’d just unload them, but after he called the police, we worried he’d be outside waving a gun and risk getting shot by police. He kept saying he needed his guns if someone broke in the house. They lived in a safe neighborhood and lived 5 minutes from their town’s police station!
We kept telling him it was due to his bad eyesight. Can’t aim if you can’t see the target, so no point. As his dementia progressed he’d mention it less, but it still always bothered him. There wasn’t much we could do about it but let him just be mad.
The ideology of a person with a impaired mind and a firearm is not good. Remove the firearm from his possession. You could come up with a fib as to why you did it.
At first, I was in agreement with the suggestion to leave a gun and remove all ammo from the house. However, after rethinking that - what if he did get scared and pull the gun out. An intruder with a weapon could be faster on the draw and police don't know when a gun is loaded or not. A pulled gun means someone is going to get shot. Just tell him, when he is completely recovered, the guns can come home, but for now it cannot happen.
FORGET EXPLAINING....it will accomplish nothing. He wants them and will not and cannot understand. Here are two options - but he won't remember. Ask the police to talk to him and let them tell him. Or, remove all bullets from the house completely and let him keep one gun - with no bullets and NOT in working order - tell him rest are in a safe place. And be prepared to have ongoing fights with him because he wants what he wants.
It just isn’t easy but know you did the right thing. I had to get rid of my husbands gun and it caused a lot of problems. he is now just about over it. Comes up every once in awhile but he quickly forgets. He was so angry about things that had been taken away. Guns money license so forth. Finally got him on a medication he takes at nite the helps keep him less angry. The doctors say that antipsychotics shorten life but why would someone want to live for ever angry. Things are much better. He still gets into a ‘rant’ every once I awhile but not so often. Blessings to you
Perhaps local police would be willing to come and sit and explain to him - you are going to fight every day as he won't listen or understand, but if he has always been a responsible and legal owner he may be more able to understand if information coming from local law enforcement - plus they can reassure him they will be taking care of him and family from now on.
I had the firearm issue with my Dad. He had to have "protection" nearby. At 93-years old and in poor health and hallucinating at times, I needed protection. I took all the guns upstairs where I slept. They were locked in a spare closet. Only my adult son and I knew where the key was hidden. My Dad could not get up the stairs. I left the ammo. This was done while he was visiting some friends.
When I picked him up, I told him I gave all of his guns to his grandchild who at the time was in tech school learning gunsmith skills. "They needed super cleaning, bluing, and a few needed some repairs and other maintenance. Don't worry I have my 2 revolvers if we need them. You do remember how to use the Colt?" He was fine with this and understood it would be awhile until the "free" work was complete. I did inform the student, just in case questions came up.
He never asked about them again. He still had his CWP in his wallet. He earned his CWP at the ripe old age of 90. When he he passed in last December, my son and I were clearing out his room when we found 2 more hidden. Oh no! One under a large hat on the top shelf of his closet and another behind stacks of boxes in his closet. Fortunately my Dad could not reach them and probably forgot about them. Neither were loaded. One did not even work.
I was able to stay safe without hurting his male ego. Also, I was technically not "stealing" from him. Just moving them to another area of the house. All but one of the weapons were left to me. My son received one old German revolver. The grandchild is now getting the guns ready to sell to help care for my Mom.
Some men, especially those previously in the military, feel less of a man without their guns. Take his guns to a gun shop and have them disabled, remove firing pins or have the working parts welded so it can't be used. Also get rid of all ammuntion. Then give him the guns back and mount them on the wall and feed his male who by telling him that now he looks like James Bond. As you age you are comforted by familiar things that used to make you happy. I have a saddle and bridle and a horse shoe hanging on a bracket and photos of my family with horses, even though I no longer ride. It makes me happy looking at them!
Removing the firing pin might be the better option because they can eventually be replaced when it is time to sell the gun. Welding the parts ruins them.
Many guns are worth several hundred or more dollars. My sister and I sold many guns (consigned to a couple gun shops) that my father had (he and our mother were in a nursing home), and we put that money into their trust account to help pay for their care.
If you have a document in your possession explicitly detailing his present cognitive status you will be more prepared to respond to his needs. Contact the specialist who diagnosed him with dementia and request a written copy of that person’s diagnostic information for your dad and also the specialist’s recommendations. If you are not an only child or if your father has a family lawyer, find out if your father drafted a POA. ”Noticeable cognitive impairments” and memory deficits following your father’s physical problems may indicate that your father can no longer relate to persuasion or benefit from detailed discussion. Has your mother commented on any unusual or uncharacteristic behavior on his part during your weekly visits?
There's a couple of problems with trying to use blanks.
First, blanks are not really as safe as you might believe. A blank propels a wad of cardboard when fired. If someone is close enough, that wad can penetrate and kill. In a famous example from 1984, an actor named John Eric Hexum put a pistol loaded with blanks to his head and pulled the trigger. The wad penetrated his skull and brain, resulting in this young man's death. A very good reminder of the first rule of firearm safety: NEVER point any firearm at anything you are not willing to shoot.
Second, because blanks do not have a "bullet", they are easily identified as blanks and would never fool anyone with any firearm experience.
Third, people who have lived in one house and owned firearms for years tend to have ammo in unexpected places. A couple of weeks back I found some .45 acp ammo in my night table drawer. After thinking about it for a minute I remembered unloading my 1911A pistol quickly so I could show it to a visitor and tossing the ammo in the drawer to keep it out of sight from the kids. When I returned the pistol back in the safe, I apparently reloaded from the open box of ammo in the safe and forgot about the rounds in the drawer. When your safe is not located in your living area but in a basement or garage, a few rounds of ammo from the pocket of a shooting jacket can end up by the laundry too.
That's why I chose to disable the pistol itself instead of trying to mess with the ammo for my own father. The disabled firearm is also still capable of deterring a criminal, since most crooks are cowards and don't want to mess with anyone capable of fighting back.
Close, I have gone through very similar circumstances with my folks. They lived in the country, had dementia, many health problems, loaded guns lying around and dad was driving around getting lost. And mom was getting scammed on the phone and trying to send crooks money.
You have already done lots for your folks to help them but I don’t see this as being sustainable for much longer. With my folks I eventually had to intervene. Got the guns out, got control of the money and bills, disabled the car then moved it away and finally got them moved to assisted living.
Mind you this was not done in a few days and wasn’t as easy as one two three, it was a hard fought battle that took over a year of cajoling, pleading, fibbing, by any means necessary.......It was finally a crises where mom was hospitalized after a bad fall that forced the move.
I understand there are many different situations. You may able to keep them home until the end, but not unless you get control of the car, guns and money.
After my father was declared incompetent by his doctor, I moved the guns out of the house to a safety deposit box "so they wouldn't be stolen while the house was left empty when he was in the hospital". Then I filed down the firing pin in a revolver so it wouldn't fire and returned it to him as his single defensive weapon. I also installed a security system with panic buttons for Mom and Dad.
If your father has cognitive problems, it's very likely no explanation is ever going to satisfy him.
I assume this your father. Is he asking for them? Where are they now? Did you sell them? A little more information would be helpful. If he has noticeable cognitive impairments you may not be able to make him understand.
He had encephalitis last year and spent almost a month in the hospital and then he went to rehab for 60 days, during which he had 2 strokes, and then my sister and I had to gut the house and remodel and make it safe for him and mom (who is a hoarder, or was, we don't allow her to be now), and when he got back they have diagnosed him with dementia, and just told DMV he shouldn't drive. He hasn't tried to drive, but he is mad about it and I put the guns up where he doesn't know where they are and he cannot get to them. I stay at their house Wed and Saturday nights and the rest of the time its he and mom. I have a housekeeper going out there twice a week, and i am on the phone with him daily and I make his med boxes each week, and my hubby and I made an entire freezer full of homemade meals for them to microwave rather than have them cooking. They are in their 70's. Mom still is mentally there, except for wanting to give away money to televangelists. Anyway, he was never a gun toting fanatic or anything, and they both still have concealed carry permits, tho mom couldn't handle a gun if she tried now days with her arthritis but dad wants his guns back because he doesn't feel safe. And I keep explaining that his memory issues make it unsafe for him to have his guns because he could accidentally hurt himself or someone else if he woke up or was out of it that day. I tell him that if he has been declared unable to drive, then he cannot have the guns either. I have a baseball bat near the front door and they never leave the house. When we remodeled, we put security lighting all around the perimeter, and they live out in the country.
Does he have permits for the guns? If not, there’s your reason. People who own guns are often very defensive about their weapons. They will parade the second amendment although as it was written, it describes arming a militia to protect The State. But, you say he has “noticeable cognitive impairments”. To me, this means he cannot be trusted to make good decisions about the guns. How often have we heard about a case of mistaken identity where a loved one was shot by a relative when they were mistaken for an intruder.
I would say leave the guns and take the ammo, but he could have hidden magazines anywhere. If he gives you a hard time, tell him you are uncomfortable with guns in the house, whether its your house or his, period. Tell him his guns are in a safe place, cleaned, oiled and locked up in a gun cabinet. Don’t say anything about him not being able to make safe decisions. If he’s concerned about security, offer to call ADT and have a security system installed. Keep your words simple and sincere and be firm.
There's no gun registration requirement in Oregon.
And "noticeable cognitive impairments" means different things to different people. If his father is competent then his son has no rights to remove ANY of his property, not his guns and not his car. The father could report and get the son arrested for felony theft. If the father is incompetent then a doctor needs to make that determination and then there's a legal path for removing his access to guns and cars.
Please realize that many people may find your emotional and uninformed statements on guns to the point that you encourage lying your a** off over this issue and committing felonies to be a "noticeable cognitive impairment".
Are you caring for him? If so, and you are in his house or he in yours, do tell him that you have read a horrifying story in which someone came into a household and killed people with their own guns, and that you cannot sleep with guns in the house. Are you afraid he will injure himself? Do you feel he has dementia and may have an accident? Do you feel the guns may be burgled? Just be honest with him. The truth is that, if he is not demented, you do not have a right to remove guns that belong to him under legal process. I don't say you can make ammunition easy for him to get to however. Wishing you good luck.
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You won't make him understand why he can't have the guns anymore, if he is not able to process it. And, even if you came up with an explanation that he did accept, he'd forget it and you'd have to repeat it over and over. That's the nature of dementia. Until they are out of the stage of challenging, protesting and resisting measures of care and safety, it's a full time job to ensure their safety, provide them reassurance and keep them protected.
He was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s in 7/17.I hid the keys to the cabinet as well as the duffel bag of ammo in the shed.He’s since has had a stroke so he could never make it out there.He was LIVID that I hid the keys ! He said I stole his property ! I told him that I overheard him on the phone telling his Marine buddy that he “ may as well take a bullet &
end it all !” I confronted him with that & he said he was only kidding,that he would NEVER do that ! I said that I cannot be sure ! I hid the application for his soon to expire CWP that came in the mail.He wondered why he didn’t receive it & kept hounding me to take him to the Courthouse to pick one up.I kept making excuses & we’ve never made it there.We live in the woods in an isolated area & I used to feel very safe because I knew he had a pistol in his nightstand & bureau,but now I feel vulnerable & afraid.His gun collection is his pride & joy.I feel that if I call the State Troopers they will take them away.I don’t want to damage them in any way to dismantle them.They are worth a lot of money.I told our son that we are going to buy a heavy gun safe & store them in his house.My husband knows nothing about this plan.Anytime I bring up his diagnosis he refuses to listen.He gets mad at me.I tell him to call the Neurologist ! His beloved Jeep is kept at our son’s house.Better out of sight.I keep telling him he needs to use it because his car is broken.He feels that everything has been taken from him & it’s true.He can’t even fish anymore.He does nothing but eat,sleep,& watch TV.It’s awful to see such a vibrant man deteriorate before my eyes.But I’m just doing things for both of our safety.He doesn’t understand,he thinks he’s fine & that I am bossing him around.It’s a sad existence for both of us.I finally got an aide a couple of days a week so that I can get out & run errands & retain some sanity.Good luck to all of you gun owner’s partners ! It is a very difficult thing to deal with.
The other person you might ask to be the first to bring it up is his PC or neurologist. Just a thought.
He had macular degeneration too, and the dementia caused him to hallucinate. He thought people were looking in the windows. One time called the cops because “there’s people dancing on the roof”. At first we thought we’d just unload them, but after he called the police, we worried he’d be outside waving a gun and risk getting shot by police. He kept saying he needed his guns if someone broke in the house. They lived in a safe neighborhood and lived 5 minutes from their town’s police station!
We kept telling him it was due to his bad eyesight. Can’t aim if you can’t see the target, so no point. As his dementia progressed he’d mention it less, but it still always bothered him. There wasn’t much we could do about it but let him just be mad.
he is now just about over it.
Comes up every once in awhile but he quickly forgets. He was so angry about things that had been taken away. Guns
money license so forth. Finally got him on a medication he takes at nite the helps keep him less angry. The doctors say that antipsychotics shorten life but why would someone want to live for ever angry. Things are much better. He still gets into a ‘rant’ every once I awhile but not so often.
Blessings to you
When I picked him up, I told him I gave all of his guns to his grandchild who at the time was in tech school learning gunsmith skills. "They needed super cleaning, bluing, and a few needed some repairs and other maintenance. Don't worry I have my 2 revolvers if we need them. You do remember how to use the Colt?" He was fine with this and understood it would be awhile until the "free" work was complete. I did inform the student, just in case questions came up.
He never asked about them again. He still had his CWP in his wallet. He earned his CWP at the ripe old age of 90. When he he passed in last December, my son and I were clearing out his room when we found 2 more hidden. Oh no! One under a large hat on the top shelf of his closet and another behind stacks of boxes in his closet. Fortunately my Dad could not reach them and probably forgot about them. Neither were loaded. One did not even work.
I was able to stay safe without hurting his male ego. Also, I was technically not "stealing" from him. Just moving them to another area of the house. All but one of the weapons were left to me. My son received one old German revolver. The grandchild is now getting the guns ready to sell to help care for my Mom.
Many guns are worth several hundred or more dollars. My sister and I sold many guns (consigned to a couple gun shops) that my father had (he and our mother were in a nursing home), and we put that money into their trust account to help pay for their care.
Contact the specialist who diagnosed him with dementia and request a written copy of that person’s diagnostic information for your dad and also the specialist’s recommendations.
If you are not an only child or if your father has a family lawyer, find out if your father drafted a POA.
”Noticeable cognitive impairments” and memory deficits following your father’s physical problems may indicate that your father can no longer relate to persuasion or benefit from detailed discussion.
Has your mother commented on any unusual or uncharacteristic behavior on his part during your weekly visits?
Just a thought.
First, blanks are not really as safe as you might believe. A blank propels a wad of cardboard when fired. If someone is close enough, that wad can penetrate and kill. In a famous example from 1984, an actor named John Eric Hexum put a pistol loaded with blanks to his head and pulled the trigger. The wad penetrated his skull and brain, resulting in this young man's death. A very good reminder of the first rule of firearm safety: NEVER point any firearm at anything you are not willing to shoot.
Second, because blanks do not have a "bullet", they are easily identified as blanks and would never fool anyone with any firearm experience.
Third, people who have lived in one house and owned firearms for years tend to have ammo in unexpected places. A couple of weeks back I found some .45 acp ammo in my night table drawer. After thinking about it for a minute I remembered unloading my 1911A pistol quickly so I could show it to a visitor and tossing the ammo in the drawer to keep it out of sight from the kids. When I returned the pistol back in the safe, I apparently reloaded from the open box of ammo in the safe and forgot about the rounds in the drawer. When your safe is not located in your living area but in a basement or garage, a few rounds of ammo from the pocket of a shooting jacket can end up by the laundry too.
That's why I chose to disable the pistol itself instead of trying to mess with the ammo for my own father. The disabled firearm is also still capable of deterring a criminal, since most crooks are cowards and don't want to mess with anyone capable of fighting back.
You have already done lots for your folks to help them but I don’t see this as being sustainable for much longer. With my folks I eventually had to intervene. Got the guns out, got control of the money and bills, disabled the car then moved it away and finally got them moved to assisted living.
Mind you this was not done in a few days and wasn’t as easy as one two three, it was a hard fought battle that took over a year of cajoling, pleading, fibbing, by any means necessary.......It was finally a crises where mom was hospitalized after a bad fall that forced the move.
I understand there are many different situations. You may able to keep them home until the end, but not unless you get control of the car, guns and money.
If your father has cognitive problems, it's very likely no explanation is ever going to satisfy him.
I would say leave the guns and take the ammo, but he could have hidden magazines anywhere. If he gives you a hard time, tell him you are uncomfortable with guns in the house, whether its your house or his, period. Tell him his guns are in a safe place, cleaned, oiled and locked up in a gun cabinet. Don’t say anything about him not being able to make safe decisions. If he’s concerned about security, offer to call ADT and have a security system installed. Keep your words simple and sincere and be firm.
And "noticeable cognitive impairments" means different things to different people. If his father is competent then his son has no rights to remove ANY of his property, not his guns and not his car. The father could report and get the son arrested for felony theft. If the father is incompetent then a doctor needs to make that determination and then there's a legal path for removing his access to guns and cars.
Please realize that many people may find your emotional and uninformed statements on guns to the point that you encourage lying your a** off over this issue and committing felonies to be a "noticeable cognitive impairment".
Are you afraid he will injure himself?
Do you feel he has dementia and may have an accident?
Do you feel the guns may be burgled?
Just be honest with him. The truth is that, if he is not demented, you do not have a right to remove guns that belong to him under legal process. I don't say you can make ammunition easy for him to get to however. Wishing you good luck.