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I cut ties with my verbally abusive mother 2 years ago. My father died 6 months ago, and we had to reestablish a bit of a relationship to handle to his end-of-life care. When he passed, she accused me of outlandish offenses, like saying that Dad didn't like the color green during the funeral planning which "destroyed" her. She also accused me of breaking into her house and vandalizing it. Before I cut ties with her 2 years ago, I tried desperately to get her help for obvious mental health issues but due to doctor-patient confidentiality, I do not know if she has a diagnosis or not, if she is being treated for mental illness, etc. I received a call today from a woman she has harassed for 3 years by accusing her of having an affair with my father and hacking her computers, phones, etc. In fact, my mother has changed her phone number and internet accounts numerous times in the past 3 years because of the alleged hacking. With the phone call today, I found out that my mom sent the accused woman a box of chocolates with a threatening note, has called her boss, her husband, her husband's boss and various relatives to threaten and slander the woman. The accused woman called to ask me to help and get my mom to stop these things. I do NOT know what to do. I feel like by not getting involved I am allowing my mom to be a danger to herself (in that she is setting herself up for arrest or law suit) and potentially others (the woman is scared, had the chocolates tested, and has involved the police), yet I cannot force her to get help and only seem to get thrown under the bus and further abused when I do try to help her. If the claims against my mom are true, she could be headed toward arrest and/or law suits against her. I don't want to see her in jail or to lose everything she owns. Should I try to convince her to get help or should I stay out of it and let the chips fall where they may?

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Salisbury- CONGRATULATIONS!!! I hope you can be steadfast in your decision. You learned much quicker than I did. Life is just too short . . .
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I copied and pasted.... I keep forgetting to include attribution identifying the person to whom I am replying,

I recall when I was active on the CTPP forum there were hundreds of Dave's. I was frequently seeing me myself being confused with others named Dave, Thus was born my pen name UncleDave,

It is easy to loose trak of who said what, I should force myself to include the name of the person I am offering my two-bits too.
My apologies to fellow list buds.
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Big difference in the readability and in the IMPACT!!!!!!

Since you mention personality disorders, may I add here (for a little pat on the back) that:

My 32 y.o. daughter has narcissistic and borderline personality disorder. Yesterday I called her and "released" her, calmly and quietly, from my life--and "released" myself from hers.

After twenty years of rages, insults and accusations, she is on her own and I am free.

I will spend the last chapter of my life with people who care about me.

Ta da!

P.S. I did take her to court a few years ago for legal visitation with my grandson with whom I am very close. that still holds.
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dear texriner1...anytime in any venue you voice or post your opinion, there will always be some idiot out there that doesn't like what you said or they wanted to bully you into saying what they would say or write!! you can't be sensitive in this world OR you will never post again? WHY! who cares what they say...respond to negative comments and move on! goooooood luck with that!
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Please continue to post. I copied and pasted your response and it is now easy to read and for others to share their thoughts with you

Uncle D;
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You CANNOT win in this situation. I had them same mother who had with narcissistic personality disorder.

They never think they are wrong it is always YOUR issue to fix. I agree call your local Department of Aging and Disability Services and Adult Protective Services before they start calling YOU and investigating you for abusing your mom, exploitation, fraud, theft non of which you are guilty of.

They will investigate you even if the accuser is looney-toons and you DO NOT want to be in that position. Please do not think you are in control here now or ever. And please don't let yourself believe that things will improve because they won't it only gets worse. And don't feel guilty about the fact you can't change things.


Contact those departments in your area and then step back and remove yourself from the situation as much as possible. If I were you I would have that woman who was in receipt of the chocolates document her story. I would also suggest you get a small hand held recorder and tape your mother as she is trashing you.

Buy several tapes. Save the really abusive ones so you have them as back up if APS starts harassing you.

When APS started investigating me (several times) and they found that the accusations were false I befriended a couple of the investigators.

I called them asking for help getting meals on wills for my demented friend. I asked for help getting his motorized wheelchair fixed when Medicaid refused to fix it.

APS sent a financial planner to oversee his bills because he accused he of stealing his money. After a few months one of the case workers was calling ME to see how I was doing and asking if there was anything she could do to help me.


She finally got it through my thick head that it was time for me to walk away and move on with my life.

These agencies are there to make certain the elderly and disabled get what they need but they can help you protect yourself, get respite care for yourself and keep yourself healthy.
.................. You are in the right place on this forum. Use everything you can get from it. My heart goes out to you and I will pray for you as I do for all the caregivers out there.
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Dave-
I understand and appreciate your comment . . . However, in this scenario and on the topics discussed on this forum I believe that the respondees write about their own experiences not simply to offer help to the person who asked the question, but to help themselves through a common shared experience. I know, that was a run on sentence. I posted a question of my own once. I found that those who responded with short, curt answers had not even read the question carefully and reacted to one art of the issue. Those comments were sarcastic, judgemental and hurtful. I will never post a question again and open myself up to unnecessary criticism from the few hateful and bitter followers.
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It is easy to forget. Long endless posts are impossible to read. While I am interested and enjoy helping; if the posts are short sections it helps. This Not a personal attack or criticism. I am an old forum manager and I prefer that the administrators and community moderators post their reminders on forum occassionaly.

We all have to learn about posting. I got my hand slapped by AgingCare.com for asking members for information as part of a forum discussion. I was warned "failure to follow our guidelines in the future may result in being kicked off of AgingCare.com". It stung and was because I had asked for clarification. BUT, we all read posts with our own deciphering.

AgingCare.com policies are at
https://www.agingcare.com/info/our-policies/member-comment-policy.aspx
Perhaps they can add a few words of guidance about posting in short sections.

Having developed and managed knowledge discussion venues with over 66,000 members authoring long posts without and line breaks I recognize this as a a universal PIA. While I did all my administration off forum the writers had hurt feelings when I contacted them. Please consider this comment as a friendly reminder from a forum bud. Please do not kick me off of AgingCare.com
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I'm going to make my answer short. You CANNOT win in this situation. I had them same mother who had with narcissistic personality disorder. They never think they are wrong it is always YOUR issue to fix. I agree call your local Department of Aging and Disability Services and Adult Protective Services before they start calling YOU and investigating you for abusing your mom, exploitation, fraud, theft non of which you are guilty of. They will investigate you even if the accuser is looney-toons and you DO NOT want to be in that position. Please do not think you are in control here now or ever. And please don't let yourself believe that things will improve because they won't it only gets worse. And don't feel guilty about the fact you can't change things. Contact those departments in your area and then step back and remove yourself from the situation as much as possible. If I were you I would have that woman who was in receipt of the chocolates document her story. I would also suggest you get a small hand held recorder and tape your mother as she is trashing you. Buy several tapes. Save the really abusive ones so you have them as back up if APS starts harassing you. When APS started investigating me (several times) and they found that the accusations were false I befriended a couple of the investigators. I called them asking for help getting meals on wills for my demented friend. I asked for help getting his motorized wheelchair fixed when Medicaid refused to fix it. APS sent a financial planner to oversee his bills because he accused he of stealing his money. After a few months one of the case workers was calling ME to see how I was doing and asking if there was anything she could do to help me. She finally got it through my thick head that it was time for me to walk away and move on with my life. These agencies are there to make certain the elderly and disabled get what they need but they can help you protect yourself, get respite care for yourself and keep yourself healthy. Ok, I lied. I said I was gonna keep my answer short and I failed. You are in the right place on this forum. Use everything you can get from it. My heart goes out to you and I will pray for you as I do for all the caregivers out there.
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I would encourage the woman to press charges, so a judge can order an inpatient psychiatric evaluation. This is also known as a Baker Act action.
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Chimonger has it right. You can't fix this. Mentally ill people are not reasonable. They don't respond to kindness, love, anything. They are MENTALLY ILL.
I am going to repeat what Chimonger said for emphasis.
It's very hard to set limits on your own Mom, even harder to keep distance.
We always yearn for the Mom or Dad we never had, and fool ourselves into gradually thinking things might be better, now that some time has passed.
But when a parent is mentally ill, they often do not "get better" for long, even with medications; they only have periods of relative "better"; the kids get stuck in the grinder when a mentally ill parent disappears down their rabbit holes, repeatedly. Just keep holding your safe distance. When you doubt that, hug yourself and talk nice to yourself. It's OK to love someone from that safe distance.
You cannot change how she is.
You can only work on yourself; that is your gift to the world: be your best you.
Avoid guilt-tripping, those are part of the problem, not the solution.
Keep talking with people. Find support groups that work for you, including here. {{hugs!}}
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You really have on hell of a problem. When my father died, to recoup he loss my Mom took in a bumpkin of a boyfriend who I did not like. So I cut her off from my life. But ultimately, I guess she deserved to be happy and I just made amends. Ultimately she broke with him. What I am trying to is that parent-child could never be broken. somehow, somewhere deep within you is the real you wanting to reach out. i hope you can find the courage and fortitude to do so - before she dies.
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That's a big one. You do got to think about yourself & your own well being but bottom line is tht is your mom. I would no more walk off from a parent who has mental issues than I would a child. Your going to have to get with DCF or adult protective services even the police department should have resource numbers for mental people. Can you for the sake of arguing like sweet talk her butter her up cozy up to her etc even if it takes a while to get that connect with her would that help any even if your rolling your eyes & pulling your hair out (don't let her see you) lol. Do you live near her? What abot her primary care Dr? No they can't talk to you about her but you can talk to them tell them things you want them to know on what is going on so they can address the issues with her because a Dr can get alot of needed help involved they know the social workers etc. If you have to write a letter to her Dr. & wait for them to get off work & walk up to them & hand it to them. Tell them to just read it please because your mom (their patient) could be in serious trouble & her mental issues need addressed & the Dr can get involved without even telling your mom you ever contacted them.
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GREAT ADVICE: call Adult Protective Services, the Area Agency on Aging and the local police department and report her.
Keep written records and a paper trail.
Get the help and advice of a good elder affairs lawyer
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Get the law involved! they should be anyway because your mother is stalking and harassing others!! once the cops get involved they will have to evaluate her because she's committing a crime against that lady and who knows who else???? sad for momma but i reeeaaally feel for you!!
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Gosh, this is a "fine line" situation. If your mom is still able to care for herself (cook, clean house, shower, pay bills, etc.) then it would be very difficult to force her to submit to testing against her will or force her to do anything she didn't want to do. As for being a danger to herself, she seems like she's functioning without causing herself harm. The problem is the harassment of this poor other woman. You would be correct to inform as many government agencies, doctors, pharmacists, police,etc. as possible about her behavior, especially that it could be linked to mental illness. I'm not a mental health professional but this does not sound like a grief response to the death of your dad to me.

Adult Protective Services interviewed my (stage 4 Alzheimer's) mother twice after she claimed to her friends that I "picked her up, threw her on the floor and stole her pain meds." I knew nothing about the charge and the funny thing is that they never called me to inform me of their visit or ruling. They could tell she had dementia. I wound up calling them after getting a call from the Senior Apt. manager.
What I have found out is that human "rights" are taken very seriously and I think sometimes goes too far. Your mom sounds like she needs a mental health evaluation but, unless she is a threat to herself or others or is in imminent mental danger, no one can force her to do so. Do not be surprised if all the government agencies do is document her actions (possibly to use at a later date). Probably the most that will happen is a restraining order against her to the other lady. If she violates that, the law has to take legal action.
If I were you, I would support the other lady if you can but stay out of it with your mother. If she is in trouble with the law, they may have her mentally evaluated to find the cause of her behavior. Then you'll know what's going on. I'm sure she would benefit from therapy and medications, whenever she gets evaluated. At this point you probably won't get her cooperation. I'm sorry for you in this difficult situation.
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Chimonger, very well said
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Babalou & others are correct: You cannot fix this. Your Mom has caused similar problems for you, too. You and others need protection from your Mom. Mom needs protected from herself.
Reports to local entities, can help create a paper trail, which can get her helped.
These include:
1. Write a 1-page letter, with one-liners describing your Mom's behaviors over time. Send this, or submit it in person, to her Doc's office, and request it be included in Mom's medical file.
Include that you have had to maintain a safe distance from your Mom, due to her behaviors being increasingly harmful towards you. Describe why her behaviors are harmful to you, as briefly as possible, yet stating facts.
Describe what behaviors she has, which might endanger herself [like substance abuse, or walking the streets at night, or hoarding filth, or past suicide attempts or threats to others or to herself, etc.]
2. Call Police or Sheriff's office to request 'wellness-checks' on her; her behaviors might endanger herself or others. Include that she has mental illness issues, and whether she takes meds for those. They go to her house, check up on her circumstances, and report on what they see/hear. This starts a paper trail of reports, with her name on them, which indicates a possible problem that needs monitoring, and can be matched up with anyone else's reports about her harassing them or otherwise causing harm.
3. Ask her local Area Agency on Aging what helps are available, which someone else might institute for helping Mom, because you do not feel safe trying to help her.
4. Report to APS: she is a danger to herself or others. Describe specifically how/what/to who, how often, and if there are known triggers to behaviors. Tell if she's supposed to be on meds to help control her behaviors, or if she uses alcohol or other drugs, which might make behaviors worse. OR, if she avoids medical help, when she might be having infections that can cause bad behaviors. Voice your full concerns. Let APS know she needs help and monitoring, as her behaviors are causing harm to others [describe what that neighbor reported when trying to enlist your help]. You might need to give APS the name and contact information of the neighbor who asked for your help. Also, any other names and contact information for people she's tried to harm. You can also tell that neighbor to report her to police and/or APS.
You do not have to give your name. But since you have had to set strict limits on her access to you, you might report her as one who has harmed you [and give specifics of how].
5. Report her to the local mental health clinics, describe behaviors; they might already have records.
CLUEs: Physical harm, especially with photos to prove it, is most helpful.
Diaries or calendars of daily notes, are admissible in court to help substantiate your case. It's MUCH harder to prove emotional abuse. Walking away from the abuser, which is essentially what you did 2 years ago, might be one of the best demonstrations that there was a serious problem with verbal/emotional abuse.
Paper trails of records of reports to/from police, APS, businesses, Docs, social groups she hangs out with, etc., can eventually help substantiate her need for help. Has she been kicked off the Senior bus? etc.
WARNING: APS told me they could only take a report if the caregiver was abusing the elder. They refused to take a report that the elder was abusing the caregiver, even with photos.
I don't know if that is what they are supposed to do, but it sure left me in danger of being further harmed. By the time another relative moved Mom out of our home, I was literally desperate enough to lie like a rug and report myself to them, just so they would remove her from our house.
You might want to ask APS, FIRST, if they will take report of an elder abusing their caregiver. But, you are not her caregiver. So, you might advise that if she gets a caregiver, she might try to ruin them with her abusive behaviors.

It's very hard to set limits on your own Mom, even harder to keep distance.
We always yearn for the Mom or Dad we never had, and fool ourselves into gradually thinking things might be better, now that some time has passed.
But when a parent is mentally ill, they often do not "get better" for long, even with medications; they only have periods of relative "better"; the kids get stuck in the grinder when a mentally ill parent disappears down their rabbit holes, repeatedly. Just keep holding your safe distance. When you doubt that, hug yourself and talk nice to yourself. It's OK to love someone from that safe distance.
You cannot change how she is.
You can only work on yourself; that is your gift to the world: be your best you.
Avoid guilt-tripping, those are part of the problem, not the solution.
Keep talking with people. Find support groups that work for you, including here. {{hugs!}}
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yes, one way or another...an evaluation even if cops have to come and get her!!
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I would not get too involved. There is no rhyme or reason why mentally ill people do what they do then top that with Dementia. I would talk to her doctor about your concerns. He may be able to checkher intoa hospital for a 72 hr evaluation. Then u go from there. The woman she is harrassing should get a restraining order. This may help in getting the evaluation. But, don't let her draw u into that world she lives in. It will be your sanity.
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My Dad had,at first,subtle behavioral changes---in addition to the onset of dementia.I tried to alert his physician (lovely man) who kept telling me how intelligent Dad was and what a great conversationalist.Yes,but after the sun goes down,he has bizarre fits,with contortions and hysterical outbursts. He became increasingly hostile and verbally abusive(we called that personality "Mr. Nasty") to the point that he would refuse to go out with us to eat when we came to visit.When we tried to explain to people what was going on,they would stare at us in disbelief and sometimes with accusation,"We've never seen him act inappropriately; he's very funny and charming!" We called that personality"Jolly Jim",the one saved for casual acquaintances and his doctor.Eventually,my sister and I just avoided him as much as possible,dodged his abusive phone calls.His former ex-girlfriend(she suddenly became extremely attentive as his dementia advanced and he made her cosigner on his accounts so "she could pay his bills") became his main emotional support.After one particular event,I decided something beyond abusive behavior was happening to him and quit my job and moved to Texas to care for him and make his doctor listen to me,even if I had to throw an epic hissy fit to get him to hear me.Dad had a psychotic break that shocked his GP into admitting him to a psych hospital,where he was diagnosed with bipolar disorder with dementia. He finally got the appropriate medication and was wrested from the talons of his predatory former ex-girlfriend (who helped herself to $35,000. from his accounts and was trying to get control of his entire estate since we were the Enemy,but that's another cautionary tale).She was telling everyone his break was the result of a drug reaction.I got the medical POA,so I was able to get him properly taken care of and remove her from his life.Thank God for the irrefutable proof of the psychotic break---the dementia was finally evident to everyone.I was told the dementia made the bipolar disorder come into focus.Mental disease is exacerbated with the onset of dementia and it sounds like this is what's happening with your mom.Getting a psychiatrist or neurologist with geriatric experience could get a diagnosis(which will help with the police---they've seen it all) and appropriate medication/treatment.You can't continue to be abused,but there is help out there---this is pretty common with burgeoning dementia.Good luck! I am pulling for you;I have definitely been there!
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I've always heard that dementia can often make mental health issues that may have been an issue in the past - regardless of severity - and magnifies them. Even an issue that may have been simmering under the surface for a lifetime can rear its ugly head. I know this has been true of my own mother. Finally at age 88 I was able to get my mom to see a geriatric psychitrist and put on proper medication- it has made a significant difference for the better. I cant help but wonder how different my childhood might have been if my mother has received mental health care a long time ago. But recognizing and treating mental health issues has never been a strong suit in our society- too much negitive stigma attached. Wouldn't it be helpful if dementia turned an angry hostile person into a sweet, Mrs. Threadgood type instead of exacerbating the issue?
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A visit to a hospital geri-psych ward might be in order. They can determine which anti-psychotic medication and at what dosage and time of day would work best for her to calm her mind without doping her up. Medical insurance would pay for this. She cannot be reasoned with in her state, but a medication might make a huge difference. You have your hands full and I hope something like this works for you. It may require a visit with her doctor to get this to happen.
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Also, I totally agree with Sasha. Your mother also sounds like she is suffering from some kind of grief reaction. The point I was making is that I'm not sure that she qualifies for an involuntary hold in a mental hospital based on these behaviors alone, but surely, her MD needs to know about this. Best wishes-
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I hate to say it, witsend, but I don't believe that this harassment and slander qualifies as "danger to self or others," which usually refers to suicidal or homicidal ideation.
She has already put herself in a position to be sued for slander and defamation, and by using the US Mail, there may be other charges brought against her as well.
You're getting pulled into a toxic ring of insanity here. I would urge the adjudged woman to hire a lawyer to put an end to your mother's tyrannical bullying. Also, she needs to get a restraining order against your mom. As painful as this is, your mother is clearly mentally ill and I would continue to maintain the boundaries that you created two years ago.
The fact that the woman has spent money analysing the chocolate for poison means that defending herself against your mom has already become a financial burden to her. When your mother finds out that you are united against her, she will probably turn her I ire to you. It's a no-win situation when someone is that mentally ill. I wish you luck as you navigate this difficult situation.
A boundary you might consider is telling your mom that you'll be in her life after she seeks the appropriate help and medication. Find support groups if possible. Best to you-
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so sad for you and very sad that you're mom is suffering so much. great advice from all those above...and yes, stay away from her!
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Hi witsend73,

I understand your situation and it is truly not an easy one. Both physically and emotionally you and your mother are in a situation that is possibly unfixable. However, there maybe a light at the end of this dark tunnel. Contact your local Adult Protective Services and ask them to look into the situation. (They can do this without using your name or relationship to your mother.) Provide them with the information you have including medical professionals names and contact information. Then allow them to do their work. This may be the most difficult of actions to take (allowing them to do their work).

I realize your mother seems to have a history of this kind of behavior; it is also very possible she is reacting to a grief and loss situation (the death of your father). Everyone grieves differently and it is important to get the services of a professional to help with this. Some people never get over the loss of a spouse. And likewise some people never get over the loss of a parent. Be sure you are giving yourself the time and work so you are working through your father’s death. It would be very difficult to do the kind of work necessary should you are constantly being pulled off target by your mother.

You did not say if you have siblings. If you do have brothers and/or sisters this can be a focal point for the group to gravitate to and put family ties to good use. Although no two people are at the same place in the grieving process it would be a step to reconciling the family unit if all could pull together for your mother.

Answer to your original question; If my abusive mother is a danger to herself or others, should I get involved or continue to maintain boundaries? To answer your question it is important to direct your concerns to the professionals. Most people with mental illness do not heal without professional help and may still not heal if they are not willing to do the work. That being said, a professional will possibly be able to help you set up some boundaries that now apply (there is a difference in the family dynamics since your father’s death). There is much work to be done and I can tell you are feeling the strain of not only the loss of your father but also your mother’s behavior. It is important to maintain your physical and mental health, as at sometime in the future you will need to be present for your family. Keep a journal and look at it often for reassurance and validation.
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Thank you, everyone, who has responded. You have been very supportive and helpful. I appreciate it so much. I do recognize my mom in your situations and am glad to know I'm not the only one. It's an isolating thing. I know you all understand that without explanation. :) I have tried talking to her doctors 2 times before but I did not have anyone other than my husband to back me up. I now have the emails my mom sent the other woman and will try again with her doctor. I am scheduled to talk to my lawyer, too.
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you are an angel to deal with this.I remember having the police intervene with patients,and local agencies had to be involved..Also during cares it was required two or more people to be involved for protection and documentation..You are perfectly fine continuing boundaries.You also need to take care of yourself and not ever feel guilty.Good luck and God bless
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Can you phone her doctors office and give the nurse some back ground on what has been happening? You can give information without a release of information. Try to get her scheduled for an appointment and let the Dr address the issues with her. Sometimes people will take advice from their Dr even when the family cannot make any progress. Ask for a referral for an evaluation. There are many interventions that could be helpful in regulating her behavior.
Best of luck to you.
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The above information is great. One thing about Adult Protective Services that I discovered( in Pennsylvania) was that even though they came out and made a report we could not get a copy of it unless it was obtained by a subpoena/legal means. I wanted a copy for our records and was not given one. So make sure that you can count on their report for your needs in the future. Also, I would make sure they interview the neighbor, read all notes, etc as your mom may appear quite normal to them when they make their visit. An elder law attorney should also be able to guide you to what type of protection your mom might need from herself and others. You seem to already feel that you are obligated ....in some way....to help her out by your stated concerns. She is lucky to have you. I hope you can get started to get some immediate answers. Stay strong!
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