Do residents of nursing homes have any rights? Mom's facility won’t let them go out, have visitors etc. With precautions, why not?

I apologize if I offer an insight that's already been suggested.   I come late to this thread and there are already 28 other answers, so I apologize for not reading them all and possibly duplicating someone else's thoughts.

My first thought from a corporate/business standpoint is not just the safety of your mother, but the liability of the staff and ownership.   They have no control over where you might take her, she might become exposed and expose others in the facility.   Despite the widespread pandemic, business people still need to be concerned about liability for themselves, individually and as staff, and obviously for residents and guests. 

Similar issues arise with your coming inside.    Unless they do contact tracing before you enter, they have no idea of your potential exposure.  

The conclusion that "it seems residents have no rights" doesn't factor in the biggest right of all:  to be as safe as possible.   As to choosing what risks individuals in care centers want to take, there are so many factors involved:   mental status of the residents, ability to make decisions, masking and taking other precautions (which the staff can't control once someone is out of the facility), and more.

It seems harsh, and there's no question that the pandemic has created disruptions throughout the world, but the staff are acting on behalf of those in their care.  I'd be glad that they are taking those precautions.

Glad, it's true we're all in the same boat. But if you're in your eighties or nineties, then the prospect you're looking at is that you can't see anyone you care about (or who loves you), you'll be a sitting duck if the virus gets into your facility (which at some point it probably will anyway), and that you don't have enough Christmases left to wait 'til the next one.

Shielding, or strict quarantine, takes away everything that still has any meaning to many older people and doesn't guarantee them any prospect of better things to come. They say (and I see their point) that they really might just as well be dead.

We have had a number of outbreaks in my area, food processing plants and all nursing homes. Then there is the home in Norton KS where ALL residents and some staff has tested positive.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-andbe-nursing-home-norton-kansas-all-residents-some-staff-have-covid-10-deaths/

I am actually surprised that anyone would choose to take the risk of infection to say nothing about the risk that they pose to everyone they come in contact with.

Yes, understand the concern about isolation and depression it is being felt by so many, not just the elderly.

The difficulty with individuals' choosing what risk to take is that they then expose other people to that risk who have not chosen to take it.

So, technically, a 92 year old lady is free to leave her facility (if she or her agent has the legal competence to decide so). But she ain't then free to come back in again, onto the premises and among the staff she necessarily shares with other residents. The facility has a duty to limit infection risk as far as possible, and that includes restricting residents' social interactions.

The conflict between the risks of Covid and the risks of isolation for older, frail and/or mentally frail people is an absolute bloody nightmare and I do not have any answer.

As I said, I can't "argue" with COVID restrictions. But I think they will take an unknown and unmeasurable toll among those "locked down" in minimal care settings. I have personally seen probable early deaths (in my own unprofessional opinion) among elderly due to indifference of institutional staff to quality-of-life issues.

Distributed games and puzzles are no substitute for friends and family. Could there not be an effort to make video face time visits available? Electronically uneducated elderly could be helped by those who normally supervise other activities.. Could physical exercise classes be conducted with social distancing to avoid physical decline? How about some "group therapy" sessions with participants, socially distancing, sharing how isolation is affecting them. I realize such activities would require planning, work and time, but staff is no longer transporting residents for outings and shopping or organizing programs or games. Coping with COVID is not easy for anyone...especially for those whose lives are severely curtailed but without support from anyone. Just delivering meals and housekeeping services does not make everyday life bearable. And families are no longer able to provide observation or assistance.

I can't argue with covid restrictions. I'm in an independent living facility that, so far, has had NO cases among residents. We are required to wear masks any time we are out of our apartments and social distance in all common areas including elevators. Food is delivered to apartments. No longer served in the dining room. No group activities. No bus transportation. NO visitors (except in rare rather dire circumstances). Twice, there was a bit of lifting in restrictions...until an employee tested positive for covid! Then the lock-down returned. These restrictions have been in place for 8 months.

Yes, we may be covid-free but many residents are alarmingly depressed, withdrawn, sometimes openly hostile. Some are not eating, physically weak from lack of exercise, falling more often (that's worrisome!) More residents now (in my view) show mental confusion, even disorientation. The facility's answer is to provide puzzles, paper and pencil games to combat "boredom".

Physical and mental decline can and do occur in the elderly population. But it appears to me there has been a sharp increase where I live. I myself, battle with depression and sleeplessness. It seems that "normal" life will never return for us.

LoopyLoo

If visitors are the problem for Nursing Facilities, then why did so many residents die of covid during shutdown?

If you are telling me the reason why nursing facilities are not allowing visitors is because the residents are vulnerable then please tell me why visitors are being allowed in hospitals?

You do realize there are way more patients in a hospital than there is in a facility? Do you understand how sick/vulnerable a lot of these patients are? Some have serious health issues.

You don't think the employees go in and out of these facilities and go around other people?

Furthermore, none of my comments/responses imply that I don't understand the seriousness of this virus or how easily it is transmitted.

I am said, if visitors are allowed in the hospital then there should be no reason visitors should not be allowed in Nursing Facilities.

I also said, If social distancing, wearing masks, having designated areas and lysol work, "Let's do this." We want to see our loved ones.

It's time to get real ... It doesn't make any sense.

SN: I don't agree with a resident leaving a facility. A nursing facility can monitor what is going on inside their building, however, they can not monitor what goes on outside.

Part of the problem is that the risk includes not only the resident that leaves the facility for a "ride", but everyone the resident interacts with after they return to the facility. This is similar to the "Vaccination or NO Vaccination" question. If parents decide not to vaccinate their children against childhood diseases, are their children the only ones at risk or is everyone the children come into contact with at risk also?

Also, how can the facility "know" that the resident only went for a ride and did not come into contact with someone who has COVID (with or without symptoms)?

The LTC facilities have enough problems trying to keep the staff from getting COVID and infecting the residents. Taking someone for a ride just adds another risk that some facilities do not want to take.

My husband was released from the hospital yesterday back to his nursing home. I posted earlier about his accident not being reported. His hip surgery was on Saturday. I get a call from the nursing home today to tell me that the facility is now on lockdown again because an agency nurse tested positive twice for COVID but she’s asymptotic. My husband went back under quarantine, but I have no idea if he had any interaction with this nurse prior to going to the hospital last Thursday. This is exactly how they had several deaths previously, from staff members who were going back and forth between two different facilities. And in the beginning they were not wearing the appropriate PPE.

It is not even really the visitors you have to worry about any way.

The visitors are the ones that are wanting to do all the right things in order to be able to see their loved one. They are the ones that really want their loved ones safe and unharmed.

I'm pretty sure they are willing to do their part.

All I hear is, "Got to keep the elderly safe, they are the most vulnerable." OK. I get that.

However, I think more concern should be that of staff and not of visitors.

An employee is more subtle to be more careless on the job than someone who is visiting their loved one.

I'm pretty certain after so many hours of staff wearing a mask, they are more tempted to put that mask aside (even if just for a min) "to breath." I have witnessed this many times at the facilities.

Plenty of times I've seen staff without a mask on. Rather they got distracted, forgot, needed a moment to breathe or whatever.

So technically, it is not a "visitor thing."

Once again, We have a designated area, lysol, hand sanitizer and masks. BAM

What's the problem?

IT'S TIME TO BE REAL.

Well, at least you still have your mom. My dad died of Covid in August. He contracted it at the facility where he lived. There are no easy answers, but it’s a slow and painful death. It saddens me he contracted the virus in a facility that was giving him excellent care. I feel like an asymptomatic person brought Covid into the facility. Obviously, if a loved one needs this type of care, they are not in the best of health. That being said, I understand your frustration. However, Covid should not be taken lightly.

I suppose restrictions will ease up gradually. It depends on the region, the spikes, the availability of care that can be provided and so on.

I don’t see how there can be a happy medium. We have to be cautious above all else for everyone’s safety.

Doctors, nurses, all medical staff have been infected by Covid and sadly some people have lost their lives.

Certainly all medical staff deserves our gratitude and respect. They have worked diligently throughout difficult challenging times. We need them to care for the community. They have generously given their time and talent to serve those in need.

Residents in many facilities all over the world have become very sick, suffered and died.

Residents at facilities are extremely vulnerable. To tell the truth we are all at risk even though some are at a much higher risk. No one is immune to it.

Does that mean that I have no empathy for residents being alone or children wanting to see their elderly parents? Oh no, of course I feel for them. But for now, we have to be reasonable and abide by the regulations of the facilities or any other public building.

Have any of you noticed out of order signs on public bathrooms? I have. They don’t have the staff to keep up with all of the sanitation that is needed today.

We are living in a different world, yeah it does feel like the twilight zone but it’s our reality for now. Let’s hope and pray that it doesn’t last for too much longer. It’s going to be awhile because we don’t have a vaccine yet.

Let’s support each other and we will get through this challenging time. Past generations got through health crisis in their day.

Please note this is a very serious medical issue. You can argue residents should be allowed to choose, but the reality is that they are choosing for others in the facility, whether residents or staff. Don't they have rights too? Especially in regard to what is a life/death issue?
Please keep in mind that facility cannot properly monitor resident that is taken out and brought back in. Did they take all the precautions? Are they asymptomatic? This is hard on everyone's psychological health, but it is what it is - a serious medical/quarantine issue, not a political one. And people have, are and will die because of public failure to support preventive measures.

There is really no good solution here. Yes, you are correct, patients in hospitals are allowed one designated visitor. And sometimes the hospital rules don't make complete sense either, In my state of Illinois, if you are having a procedure like a colonscopy or something that requires anesthesia and a driver, the driver cannot come in the hospital to wait. If you are having surgery, which my husband just did, one person could come in and wait with him in pre-op waiting area, and then again was allowed in room after he woke up. They are trying to limit access while still responding to needs. We cannot see my mother except outside because a staff member just tested positive again. It is 30 degrees here so no outside visits.

The facilities are doing the best they can do. And the NH population is more vulnerable. Of the 230,000 deaths in the United Stated, 80% of them are people over 65 years old and of that group, 40% of the deaths are people in nursing homes of some type. So the facilities are trying to keep them alive. Yes, the isolation might be hastening their declines but the facilities cannot do anything about that beyond what they can do, We did not see my FIL from March until he died on May 18th. So I do understand that this is difficult but when you look at the stats, taking people out of the facility for a ride is just too risky. How would they control the exposure that occurred. You take them for a ride, they get exposed, maybe by you and you bring them back so they can infect 10 people before anyone knows it has happened.

I totally understand the need to follow protocol for COVID, and I was not able to see my husband since March 11 when lockdown began. 5 weeks ago the Governor allowed the healthcare facilities to open up for visitation. During the lockdown I was doing Zoom virtual visits and I noticed my husband was losing weight. I tried to speak with the staff regarding his weight loss and they assured me they were giving him extra snacks to help him gain some weight. He is 6’6 and weighed 209 before lockdown started, his weight dropped to 172, even with me bringing in extra snacks like pudding and protein shakes, which they would not allow him to have until they had been onsite for 3 days, but then my husband said he wasn’t getting these snacks regularly. Obviously no one was really addressing this issue and they were just telling me what I wanted to hear. When the lockdown lifted and I began visiting again in a front lobby, 12 feet apart, with masks, I started bringing milk shakes and other treats. I was told he was starting to gain weight back and he was now back up to 179. I know part of it was depression, but I know him, he always eats his food. So, this past Wednesday my husband called me about 5:30 and tells me he fell. He’s not supposed to be trying to walk without supervised assistance. He tells me his walker collapsed. I said walker, what walker? I’ve always told them no walker because that would encourage him to try and walk on his own. I asked him if he is ok and he says his hip hurts a little. This man has no padding or muscle because he’s so thin. I tell him to let the nurse know if he has any pain, and of course I’m expecting a call from the facility because it is a state-required mandate to inform the appropriate person about the accident. I don’t get a call until the next day (Thursday at 2:30) from the director of nursing telling me about the accident, when it happened, and her reason for not contacting me sooner. She was doing an investigation due to the fact that whoever the individuals were that helped him up didn’t report it and she only found out about it because he complained of pain. She also had it xray’d and sure enough he has a fractured hip, she’s waiting on his doctor to tell her what to do. Of course they have to send him to the hospital. He gets surgery to pin the hip. While he’s there I ask them to weigh him and he only weighs 165 lbs. Sorry for the lengthy story, but my point is, without my daily visits to make sure they are staying on their toes, he’s fallen because they went against my direct orders and he’s been neglected to the point of malnutrition. There has to be an alternative way to keep our loved ones healthy without endangering others living in the same facility. I know there are many others that are suffering without their families there to visit and monitor their health. By the way, I didn’t mention that I’ve been able to visit him for 6 hours a day while he’s been in the hospital, only wearing a mask. He has a roommate and the nurses are only wearing masks, no other PPE.

My 10-yr old grandson is attending school at the giant high school, socially spaced wearing masks all day, hand-washing, sanitizer, etc. On Halloween morning at 5:30am he woke up and began a 12-hr vomiting adventure aka norovirus. So how, with all the hygiene precautions, did he get it? I'm gonna guess at lunchtime, from the school-mandated hot lunch, that's how. Don't NH residents have to be fed as well? Often hand-fed by the staff? There's always a flaw in any plan...

So, if residents of nursing facilities can't have visitors due to the possibility of spreading the virus, that means the guidelines/safety measures do not work? Right?

At the nursing facilities there is a "designated area", hand sanitizer, lysol - the visitors are wearing face masks and sitting six feet apart. Can't spread the virus like this. Right?

Now, let's compare a hospital to a nursing facility. There are way more patients in a hospital than there is in a facility whom are very sick and vulnerable. Patients there are being allowed visitors.

This is just doesn't add up.

It’s very sad but these are unusual times. We are living in the midst of a pandemic.

The Patient Bill of Rights is supposed to apply to all people in a clinical care setting. However, with the Covid-19 pandemic nursing homes have had to take very strict measures that seem harsh. They are harsh, but they are necessary.

You have to consider the rights of ALL of the patients in that facility when it comes to rules. As I always say, your rights end where my nose begins. Your mother's 'right' to go out on the town poses serious risk to the right of those patients are more concerned about catching covid. So as far as her rights, you did get extra consideration when they let you in for a period of time. Your mom can choose the risk she wants (or you choose it for her), however her risk taking should not include all the other patients in her choices.

Don't you think all of the patients would love for their family to come in, or go for a ride? And if 50% are really careful going in/going out, wouldn't you be a little upset if someone on the other side of that fence brought a huge covid outbreak and gave it to your mom?

They have no idea where you take mom, if you're really a masker when you are out, or if your family might be a bunch of anti-maskers. If case count went higher in your area, locking them down is the best defense they have. It's bad enough the staff have to come and go as a means for the virus to travel, but that is unavoidable. There was a nursing home in Texas where every single patient and all of the staff caught it - several died, including our neighbor's relative.

You/your mom do have rights/choices to make. Leave her there following the facility rules to avoid covid outbreak or take her to your house until they come up with a vaccine that works. Then you can come/go as you please.

You getting a covid test today at 1:00 certainly doesn't mean you can't be exposed to it by 2:00. The mask helps to contain your coughing, but if you get around others sharing their coughing fits and germs with everyone in a public setting, there's still a chance of getting it. Our job, as I see it, is to protect our families and those we don't know who could be at risk. Until we all get on board to take precautions for those we don't even know, I think we'll continue to see the spikes pop up. Wear the mask for someone else!!! - I wouldn't want you to bring in the virus and make my grandmother sick or kill her, she had the rights too. To expect facility to keep her safe.

You might get an ipad or other device so staff could help her connect with you. Maybe that would help both of you.

It has been weighing heavily on my heart and mind about residents of facilities not being able to have visitors.

I feel like isolating them is doing more harm than good. I can only imagine how they feel.

I don't agree to letting the residents leave the facility but I do believe they should be allowed visitors.

They can use the same protocols in a nursing facility as they do in any other place.

Designate an area, check temperatures, require masks, use hand sanitizers and keep 6 feet apart?

What am I missing, here?

You're not understanding the responsibilities that the facilities face.. The facility cannot guarantee that you won't take your mom somewhere and pick up Covid. If she should bring it back to the facility then they've got a huge problem. You don't have the right to put other lives in jeopardy just because you want to take your mom out of the facility on a ride. The other patients can't be let out for a ride either because they could also endanger others in the facility...your mom included. Its tough for everyone not just you and your mom. Lucky you that you get to go visit her inside the facility. I get to visit through a closed window. Hardly seems fair that your allowed in. Just enjoy the time you have with her in whatever capacity you are allowed.

Let’s say they change their policy and let family take Mom/Dad out for an hour or so. Ooops, one of them got contaminated while out, and the virus spread through the facility like crazy. Your mother gets it and either dies or has complications for the rest of her life.

Would you be able to accept that? Was the risk worth it? H*ll no.

Facilities with vulnerable people HAVE TO be vigilant if they want their residents to remain alive and mostly well. They aren’t restricting to be mean or paranoid. It legit is a matter of life or death.

Most facilities have to follow the guidelines established by their state governors.

My LO was infected with Covid by an ASYMPTOMATIC CARRIER. My LO didn’t get a choice about her risk.

She too “gets so lonely” and is completely dependent. In fact I’m her only living relative.

She became ill on a Friday, and the person who infected her had no symptoms until the Sunday afternoon following.

If you are in a high risk area, which most US areas are, your mom would be vulnerable to exposure too.

It really isn’t an issue of residents’ “rights”. In my area, it’s STILL a matter of safety. My heart breaks for both of us, you and me.

Being responsible for someone I care so deeply for, and not being able to assure her that I’m nearby and LOVE HER, is unbearable to me. When the phone rings at any time of day or not, I break into a cold sweat, each time thinking it may be that call informing me that she’s gone.

I have cautious hopes that I may be able to see her indoors at some point soon enough that she’ll still know who I am. I doubt that I’ll be able to hug her, but if/when I’m allowed to, it will be the biggest, gentlest hug I know how to give.

Hopes and prayers that you will be United SOON, with your mom. I know only too well how painful this is.

OP - I can understand how you feel. (to some degree)

I understand the fact the Nursing Facilities want to follow guidelines in what they think will keep their residents safe. That part is understood and no questions asked.

However, Have they ever thought what damage is being done to these elderly by keeping them imprisoned? (sort of speak) Do they not understand this isolation is not good on their mental and physical well being?

Imagine the loneliness they must feel. How about the sadness and depression from not seeing their loved ones. Could this not add stress to the physical body? (heart)

I do understand here, there are measures to take to ensure safety. For instance, You can go to the doctor's office. They will check your temperature, keep you 6 feet apart and require a mask.

I feel the same can be done in a Nursing Facility.

Where the is a will, there is a way.

The elder who returns after "taking a risk" brings covid back to a facility that others cannot escape from. The facility will set the rules, and they are the best ones to explain the rules to you. Your Mom does have a choice in that she may make the choice to leave the facility, to be cared for by family during covid-19. Covid is on the rise again. I am afraid that rules will have to tighten again. All who congregate together, either by choice, or because they must (as in your Mom's situation) are more at risk, as are our elders.
I think that the only reason it is not allowed to give elders a ride away from their facility, say into the country, is that the facility cannot trust that their rules will be obeyed. For instance, Mom may insist on a shopping stop at Target, there get the virus, and bring it back home with her.

You should start a petition or campaign to your legislators pressuring them to create and pass a law allowing "essential caregivers" into facilities. That's what they did in MN in June. You should cite this state's example. My husband and I are now authorized to go into my MIL's LTC to see her no matter what's going on with covid inside and outside. FYI my MIL recovered from covid in May.

The risk taken with that does not apply to just your mom. The risk is exposed to everyone then. As much as you say you would wear a mask, only go for a drive... there are others who would say the same, down the road , the mask comes off , they stop somewhere...puts the entire community at risk. The elderly are the most vulnerable. My moms AL have gone to extreme lengths to keep Covid out. The lock down is one of them.