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With the Thanksgiving, and possibly Christmas, holidays coming up, my husband and I were thinking of possibly going out to dinner with my daughter who lives with us rather than preparing a huge meal at home. Two of our three children are out of state, and due to various circumstances, won't be coming home for the holiday, which is totally fine and we understand and respect that. My dilemma is my 90 year old father, who is currently living in an assisted living facility. He is pleasantly confused and incontinent. He wears Depends, but argues, and refuses usually, about getting up to go the the restroom to try and go every hour or so, but then ends up totally blowing through them and making a catastrophic mess all over the place including chairs, the floor, all over the place in public waiting rooms, and then I have to drive him home when he is covered with this mess. The thought of having to bring an entire set of clothes with me and trying to get him cleaned up and redressed in a public restroom every time I have to take him some where is not worth the stress. Even getting him to doctor's appointments just isn't worth the stress it causes me. At a recent appointment, he took himself to the restroom, had a bowel movement that came up his back and out the top of his pants, all over every where in the bathroom - which had to be totally shut down until they could get it cleaned up - and then came out and sat in one of the chairs in the waiting room like that. Any time he floods out his pants, he refuses to get cleaned up and just argues that he is fine and that it will dry. I feel like a total loser for just wanting a nice, calm, pleasant day out with my family for a change. What is a daughter to do?

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In your own home is one thing. Actually, I wouldn't want that problem in my home either. But I would not take Dad with me to a public place. Have dinner with him at the AL. They usually have them a few days earlier.
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I totally understand the clean-up mess and have dealt with it but facing slightly different scenario. No diagnosis of dementia, yet ‘stains’ appear on newly purchased chair. One whiff and you know what it is. I placed a bath towel on chair but that upset him. My theory is if you are dirtying the furniture then you know it has already soaked through underpants and sweatpants - a polite reminder it is time to get cleaned up. He is in complete denial and refuses to see there is a problem…I’m being picky. How do you handle that one?
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Beatty Nov 2022
"How do you handle that one?"

".. a polite reminder it is time to get cleaned up".

Yes.

If you are the caregiver, state "It's time" or "Come with me" & lead to the bathroom.

If this is your chair. The choice is sit on the towel or do not sit there.

If this is their home & their chair. Time to leave.
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You cannot leave him alone - ever - when going out.

I hope you understand this now after the experience you recently had.

There is NO reason nor necessity of you putting yourself through this turmoil and stress. Why are you? Once you experience this . . . you've been alerted ... you do not repeat the behavior for a second time for it to happen.
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JoAnn29 Nov 2022
He is in an AL so he will not be alone. They usually privide a Holiday dinner a few days before so family can join in.
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This is what a daughter is to do . . .
Do not include him in a restaurant / outing. Instead, have a gathering before thanksgv day with the immediate family. Pick up Whole Foods hot meal (turkey) and enjoy the day with him. He's in assisted living. They will provide something to him - and likely the family if you sign up a head of time.

That he refuses or makes a fuss about going to a bathroom is enough of an alert to you - of what may / likely happen. Do you really want to put yourself and your family, and your dad through this? No.

And, perhaps stop insisting or trying to get him up every hour or so to go to the bathroom. There comes a time when they need to 'just go' and to allow that to happen.

You say so yourself "... it is not worth the stress." He's 90. Get good bed pads, perhaps double up on the depends... do what you need to do. Stop stressing over this - if you want to enjoy your intimate family dinner out - make reservations soon!

Gena
Touch Matters
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My brother had the same problem. When they can from out of town to visit, I just ignored it. He has since passed away, but I’m so glad that he always felt welcome at my house. Cleaning up after he left was worth his lovely company. A solution? Eat at home.
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JoAnn29 Nov 2022
Your a good person.
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I'm lurking here as have a similar problem...

I don't think it can be a clear cut yes or no (invite or not). Each case will differ. Personalities differ, people's values differ, ability/willingness to help (self & others) differs too.

ACaringDaughter had an unexpected night - a bright spot of happiness. That was a beautiful story 😊

Velbowpat also had an unexpected night 😳 but handled it with grace, grit & that perfume!

To be a geek about it.. I suppose the probability of a blowout + being 'happy' to deal with it + probability of others helping may = invite or not.

When the risk was smaller & I took my LO out alone. But after a similar experiences in small bathrooms, I re-assessed.

Then attended larger gatherings where others had said they would help.

When I drilled down to what this 'help' would be.. you guess it. Umm, well, silence..

It still makes my blood boil to think about when a family member said (from atop their moral mountain) 'family helps family'. Yet when I asked Who? Oh not ME, not her, not them etc etc... just left ME!

It was up to me to decide if I WAS the designated caregiver or not. Not for others to place me there for their own convenience.

If yes, then take a cleanup kit & a can-do attitude. Deal with whatever.

If not (& that's ok) clearly say so.

These are what the OP has to decide for herself.
- Does being a daughter make her automatically the caregiver?
- Is she ok being Dad's caregiver when out in public anymore?

Once I decided, my thoughts & life became easier.
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ConnieCaretaker Nov 2022
You're spot on..............too many volunteers conflate caregiving with being a victim.
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Part of the problem with Nice Restaurants is that they aren’t set up for old people with any degree of incontinence, immobility or dementia.

Fil had a walker. He could not manage the one stair needed to get to our table, so we had to go through the kitchen. Had he needed the bathroom, he would have had to get to it the same way.
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Cover999 Nov 2022
The episode of Family Guy where old man Herbert had a fight with the German guy, whereas the German guy fell off the one step to Mr Herbert's house and his whole body crumpled on the pavement.
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Dear kittykat and lkdrymom,
I appreciated both of your stories because I have been in your shoes.
My mom pooped her pants at a wedding and I have had to help oldies with potty issues at holidays. My point I guess is everyone was upset with me when I said maybe these people shouldn't attend these events. They said I shouldn't worry because they would be there to help me. True to form they were not. There I was
wiping my mom's private area in a tiny bathroom stall with poop all over her backside and clothing. Of course it smelt terrible and I grabbed the spray bottle of my favorite perfume in my purse and dosed us both. Thank God I thought to bring it.
I have had to clean powder room "accidents" that were full on bowel movements and then be told to hurry up and serve the Christmas ham. Everyone in my family cooks very well and they could have got things started while I was occupied...but no. I insisted that my parents not go to my son's graduation because they would whine that everything is taking too long. My son deserved to be the center of attention on his day. My sibling almost decked me over that, had my husband not stepped in I am not sure what would have happened. I would have lost some teeth. To ACaringDaughter I already am that person who steps up, does her best,
turns on the charm, thinks about other people often to my own detriment. But now I have put myself and my family into the equation and what we want comes first.
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ACaringDaughter Nov 2022
I understand.

Many of my relatives were also nowhere to be found when needed. (They travelled at the speed of light, however, when it was time to get their inheritance).

For me, the best support came from friends, not my siblings, as I had expected. I have become very close to some of these dear friends since and regard them as family.

My kids were also surprisingly wonderful, even though they were fairly young.

I understand your pain well. Just don’t give up on all opportunities. Don’t lose hope in mankind. There are still plenty of great people around.

We can also try to be that person for others.
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@ACaringDaughter

Personally I try to avoid Wal-Mart because I have a problem with them being so against their employees unionizing. The human rights violations bother me too. Get a Costco membership if you've got one near you. Those stores are beautiful and your conscience won't bother you.
As for Black Friday. I'm not willing to risk my life to save 25 cents on some paper towels. It's all about Cyber Monday. All the same deals only online and no one is going to roll you in the parking lot.
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Bridget66 Nov 2022
I avoid Walmart. Use Costco and love cypher Monday and the small business Tuesdays. Always try to support local businesses.
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Why do we let some calendar tell us when to celebrate Christmas? Thanksgiving? ETC! My brother was sooo into "it has to be on that day" WHY! Last year I celebrated Thanksgiving on Saturday... oh the horror if my brother had been there -- or anything to do with it! And who says we have to have turkey! I just hate to be told that I have to have.... I make what I want and I have it when I can! have Christmas with you Dad when you want how you feel comfortable. If you feel that taking him out is not a good experience for him, them bring in HIS favorite meal... it may not be turkey it could be a hamburger from a local Mom and Pop place. I know when my Daddy was not knowing what was going on due to his ALZ he just wanted hashbrowns yes pan fried hashbrowns this is what I served him and guess what he was happy everything went smoothly and no arguments. Maybe if staying at the AL facility where he doesn't have to stress out about getting out all he needs to do is get a nice shirt on, and nice pants and in his own place and if anything happens bam... its in his place and it doesn't bother anyone else.
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Cover999 Nov 2022
Why? Because many retailers use both days as their big moneymakers for the year. If you have/had been to Walmart, you would see how they removed their garden items and replaced it with Christmas items, as well as Black Friday Sales, etc.

Speaking of which, I wonder if they'll be doing the Black Friday deals this year in store for a few hours. It was interesting (and sad) watching people battle over low priced TVs.
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This is a little off topic but this exact situation is why I booked a pre Christmas
getaway. So we can have a few days just enjoying ourselves. No cares. No worries.
Haven't quite worked everything else out yet.
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Go out to dinner for the holidays. If you decide to cook at home, keep it small. Celebrate the holidays with your father at the AL. It doesn't have to be the actual holiday. It can be the day after or whenever.
Now let's talk hardware. A regular Depend pull-up or some other kind cannot contain the your father's incontinence. He needs to be put in a full diaper with an additional liner in it every time he is taken out from the AL. Everywhere he goes with you has to be planned. Like what will the clean-up situation look like if needs be? What's the bathroom like? What will you have to travel with?
I think it would be a good idea for you that when you're taking him to the doctor or on a planned outing somewhere to hire a CNA caregiver to go with you. Go through an agency because Medicare will usually pay for a certain number of aide hours a week if a person needs them. Make his doctor's appointments and plan his outsings during the aide's hours. It will take a load of stress and anxiety off of you to have someone else there to help.
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It sounds like you already answered your own question 5 times. You don’t need a pat on the back from a group of anonymous strangers for a choice you’ve already made.

Holidays is about time spent with family. We all get to make the choice of what that means to us.

And… we all have to accept that if we live long enough we might wind up maybe even confused, incontinent and soiled, ourselves, alone on the holidays while our loved ones celebrate without us nearby.
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lkdrymom Nov 2022
Not a helpful reply. Are you suggesting everyone else (even strangers) should be miserable so one person gets to be somewhat happy? I have dealt with an elder that needs bathroom assistance. That made my holiday experience miserable, and I was stressed to the max. I didn't get to spend time with family because they wanted to make numerous bathroom trips often for nothing. Sad as it is, there comes a time when someone is too frail to take out. The family still wants to spend time with him, they just can't do it in a public restaurant because of HIS issues.
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I would suggest going to the bathroom with him to assist. But if he's combative with that, then don't take him out. Maybe you and the family can visit afterwards and bring a to-go dinner over. Or visit the next day with family and bring a special lunch. DO NOT feel guilty. I know what it's like but you deserve to have some special time as well. You can still create a special time for him too!
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It sounds like it's time to go to visit and not go out. When I was raising my kids, I remember a lesson I've tried to live by - have your children (in your case, your father) be such in public that they are as big a blessing to others as they are to you. It doesn't exactly apply, but just thinking of the other people in the waiting areas, elevators, restrooms, and nice restaurants (oh my) who would have to deal with the sight and odors of your dad's blowouts during their own families' very special times that they've possibly been planning and saving for for months, is not something that you would want go gift them in their memories. This is NOT to say that your dad is not worth going out with, but just the timing might be better. Maybe take him to a nice area at the Assisted Living facility and celebrate in a nice way there. He will not be short-changed.
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your dad is in no postion to go out. my brother is 74 and he is the same way, refuses, is stubborn etc - so there is no taking him places and he doesn't want to go. just go with your husband and child and enjoy - then go see your dad and try to understand and be patient. I think back and wish i had been more understanding of my dad. Good luck!
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i went to the drs with my mother today and we discussed the problem with her. Unfortunately I suspect her advice probably wouldn’t help in your case because it is physical therapy and It doesn’t sound like you could get him to cooperate but she is referring my mother to a pelvic floor physical therapist. I never knew there were PT who specialize in that! The dr said it should help with both urinary and fecal control. I thought I’d mention it anyway since it is such a common problem.
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kittykatt: Do not take your father out to dinner as it seems like an impossible task.
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If he is "pleasantly confused" he probably will not be aware that he is being left out of family dinners in restaurants. Bring him a nice little treat when you visit him and have a private holiday for the two of you. It will be fine.

The time has simply come

It sounds to me that it may be time to give up on taking Dad out of his living facility. He can no longer manage it and you certainly don't need all that stress. Arrange for doctors who can visit him in his facility as much as possible. The facility probably has a list of doctors who will make visits there.
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Get a Gastroenterologist and stop the nightmare.
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Sure glad I finished breakfast before reading your posting, OMG!!!!!!!!


Suggestion, you three can dress up as turkeys and visit the assisted living home before you go out to dinner....................bring some laughter to these fine folks who are living in unpredictable circumstances. Go to dinner and enjoy your new chapter where the whole family no longer shows up for the big holidays.....time marches on and waits for no one.
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Do remote dr appointments in the future.
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I know placing your dad on a special diet might be impossible at this point, but I just wanted to let you know that we had a similar problem with my aunt. She pooped ALL the time in massive amounts. First, it was multiple C.diff infections, which we treated, but even after we had the C.diff under control, the pooping was still uncontrollable--"blowouts," as you say. I was at my wit's end. Taking her to a gastroenterologist wasn't practical (she is almost entirely bed-ridden at this point, although we're trying to get her back on her feet).

So, I looked up what the diet for Irritable Bowel Syndrome was--it's the low FODMAP diet. Basically, eliminating all gluten- or lactose-containing foods, as well as limiting or omitting certain fruits (such as apples, watermelon, and prunes) and vegetables (like onions, garlic, and celery, of all things) that have a high fructose or sugar alcohol content. I was willing to try anything, so we tried this diet, switching to gluten-free breads and pastas (and her favorite, waffles), lactose-free dairy products, plant-based milks. We removed the biggest culprits among fruits and vegetables, and stopped adding onions or garlic to foods. We also added two probiotics (Florastor and BioK+)

And the diet worked! She has now been on that diet for about a month (and because of the way we have substituted foods, she didn't really notice the change). She is still somewhat incontinent, and goes more frequently than normal, but the amounts are very small (no more blowouts at all) and farther between. Rather than having to clean her every hour, we can now wait three to four. So, you might consider whether your dad has a food sensitivity.

That said, we are caring for my aunt in my home, so we have 100% control over the food we serve her. I know from experience that trying to go gluten- and lactose-free in an AL facility would be nearly impossible. Even so, I thought it would be worth sharing our story.
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I would, realistically, make his visit brief. And be assured he likely won't mind that. He will have a bit of holiday, and then you can as well. I sure do give you lots of sympathy. Holidays are often hard for many of us and for many differing reasons, but everyone knows your Dad and his condition. They won't care. It will be hard on you, but then it always is. So, just another day. I sure wish you luck.
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OMG I laughed out loud at the “blowing” through. Been there in a tiny exam room trying to maneuver my 99 yr old with a spontaneously loaded “blown through” Depends up on the exam table. Just to convince her PCP that he needed to STOP the Miralax. He would not do it over the phone, he wanted “to see her first”.
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I agree with the suggestions on here that you enjoy your dinner out with your daughter sans dad and have a little holiday celebration with him at his facility. Win -win
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My mother and I went to a restaurant yesterday and something similar happened, but not as bad. She realized what was happening and went out to the car. Standing up made it worse for her but it stayed in her pants. I stayed to pay and when she passed me the smell was obvious.
she is fully aware and was beyond embarrassed by the whole ordeal. I am taking to to a previously scheduled drs appointment today and some of the posts here have given me an idea of what questions to bring up (meds, foods) for which I am grateful.
it sounds like your father is at a point where, as many have suggested, having a separate celebration with him at the facility, either private or one put on at the facility, would be your best bet.
I wish I could offer some advise but I can only offer my support and thank you for asking the question.
I hope you have a great holiday season and get to celebrate twice for each!
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He stays at the assisted living facility while you enjoy the holiday with your family. I believe he would bless that if he was his old self. You then have a wonderful celebration with him at the AL making him feel very loved, remembering special moments growing up, lots of laughter and hugs.
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It doesn't sound like traveling with dad is an option. I wouldn't do it. You could get a nice holiday meal (take out) from a restaurant and have a holiday dinner with him at his assisted living facility.

Most AL's have a doctor that can see patients in their AL apartment. They draw labs, they have portable xray machines, etc. I would check into that so that you don't have to take him out for routine visits. If he has some unusual procedure and has to go out of the facility to have it done, then you can deal with that as needed.
Also, let the doctor know about these bathroom incidents.
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I certainly wouldn't consider taking him out. It is sad, but that is where his physical and cognitive condition have ended. I would arrange extra special visiting during the day. Is it possible for people to stop by individually with a small present or treat, and a not too long a visit? He will want to be remembered, but will probably tire quickly.
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