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Any advice greatly appreciated. My grandfather has been showing signs of dementia for a year or so now. My dad lives with him and does what he can. Recently he has gone down hill significantly. I am his POA and named on all of his affairs. However he never gave me a copy of the paperwork. A week ago today he left his home to get something to eat and was gone for hours, not answering his phone. 4 and a half hours later and 3 police/sheriff agencies we found him, 4 miles or so from his home, on the side of the road his car was wrecked and he had no idea where he was. He could hardly stand or walk and couldn't answer questions regarding what happened due to memory and word finding. His license was taking by the police. The insurance company is needing a copy of the POA paperwork so that I can take care of the car. He is fighting me saying I dont need the paperwork etc. He states he doesn't remember the lawyer who did the paperwork. Today got pretty heated. I am in desperate need of getting these papers not only for the car but mainly so that I can take care of him and his affairs. He does not bathe anymore - barely eats - has lost a lot of weight and has bladder issues but refuses any type of products to help with accidents. He hardly drinks throughout the day I think to avoid more bladder issues. Help!



How can I get this paperwork that I know exists?
I've called multiple lawyers no luck, His financial advisor, his bank, doctor, and hospital. No luck.

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For me to use my POA for hubby I have to have the paperwork in my hand. No one else (lawyers, doctors, etc etc) will have an copy on record.
Dumb question but have you looked everywhere in the house? It’s amazing the places paperwork can be hidden or misplaced. Under couch, in sock drawer, pulled drawers out, in a tool box, glove box, suitcase, etc etc? We had paperwork in a bank security box and the amazing thing a POA would not have worked to gain access.


When I was going through our paperwork and trashing tons of stuff I found hubby social security card in a wallet we never used. I almost gave the wallet to Goodwill with the SS card in it. Scary.
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funkygrandma59 Jan 2023
I was both medical and durable POA for my late husband, and his doctors made a copy of both to keep in their files and I never had to have them with me when my husband went to the doctor or the hospital as all they had to do was pull it up in their files online to see if they had any questions.
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Having gone through the PoA creation process for myself and as an assignee by others, both through an attorrney and using an online form (Legalzoom.com) I can tell you that you would have had to sign the document yourself as PoA in front of a notary in order to finalize the PoA. If this didn't happen then I doubt you are a PoA.

Have you actually seen the document(s) and you saw that it had your name on it? And it had a notary seal on it? If so, I would ransack his house to look for it. It may be too late for him to create a new one, but even with mild dementia and memory impairment an attorney would privately interview him and he may still be deemed cognitively able to recreate this document. Without it, you are not his PoA no matter how much you or your Grandfather insists.

"I am...named on all of his affairs." What does this mean? If you don't find the paperwork then you are not named on all his affairs, unless you mean your name is joint on his accounts. Still, this doesn't make you his PoA. Your Dad doesn't know where your GF keeps his important documents? Guardianship is the only other option: either by you or the county.
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MJ1929 Jan 2023
Not true. The person assigned as POA doesn't sign anything to be named. Only the person granting POA to another does the signing.
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Geaton, the person appointed as POA does NOT have to sign anything on the POA form. It is the person who is designating someone to be their POA who is doing the signing. My own attorney had me sign my POA but the person I appointed did not. When my aunt appointed her lawyer prepared her POA/successor POA she signed in front of notary but the POA did not.
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Geaton777 Jan 2023
Google it. It depends on each states' rules. They do in my state of MN and apparently in FL, where I have been assigned by 2 different people. I had to be present to sign the docs in person in front of witnesses and the notary/attorney.

Why would someone appoint a PoA without even asking them if they want to have this responsibility? And did the assignee's attorney not create a 2nd original document to give to the PoA so that they could carry out the role and then TELL them to give it to them?
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If he doesn't have a diagnosis of being incompetent to handle his own affairs then you cannot act for him no matter what POA papers you have.
Is this a DPOA done when he did his will? If so you will need paperwork from two doctors attesting to the fact your grandfather is no longer competent to act for himself to begin to act upon it and get it in place.
If you cannot find a will or other papers in his home, which you should now scour for said papers, then you are left to become his guardian if you wish to. If he is hospitalized the Social Workers may be able to get you emergency temporary guardianship if he is adjudged not competent.
Your not having ducks in a row for this concerns me as I wonder if you know and understand what/ and all that is involved with serving as POA. At the time you take this on, if he isn't competent, you are responsible for everything, including ever single penny into his accounts and every penny out. You will be signing everything as his name with yours as POA. You will be legally responsible. This is a big job.
So contact social services at once. Tell them where this stands. Who has keys' to granddad's premises? you need to look for the will which I assume has the DPOA in it. The very sad thing is that most seniors, thinking this is SAFE, lock them into a safe or into a lockbox at their bank. As guardian you would have access to such places, but this enters into legal realms you may not choose to take responsibility for.
You may, in all honestly-- and I say this after taking on POA and Trustee of Trust for my bro willingly and knowingly-- be the better off for it.
I sure wish you the best of luck, but acting as POA involves a year of dreadfully difficult setup at BEST and that with a cooperative and competent person conferring the duty on you. I hope you'll update us.
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Lymie61 Jan 2023
It probably varies state to state but not all DPOA require doctors letters. I have POA/DPOA for my mother and there are no requirements .
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POA - who signs?

I have been designated POA for four different people in three different states. I have never had to sign the form. The person who named me POA had to sign before a notary with witnesses.
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Caregiverstress Jan 2023
I think states have different rules. I am POA for my father both medical and financial and I never had to sign anything. But you are able to refuse if you don’t want to do it. Being POA does not legally force you to do anything. It just gives you the designated powers if you chose to act. When I was getting overwhelmed with everything ( my father owns multiple rental properties and a business that he can no longer manage but thinks he can), his lawyer told me to remember that I was not legally responsible to act as POA. To just do what I could do and do more when I could, if I chose to do it.
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I am with Vegas on this. I was with my Mom when she assigned me, and I did not sign. For my nephew a different lawyer was used and I was present and he had me sign excepting the appt. Both lawyers in the same State. I just looked up POA forms in my State and there is a place to name the person being assigned but no where that person signs to except the appt. So maybe its the State you live in. There have been OPs on this forum who have found out they were assigned without their knowledge and don't want the responsibility.

I do feel that assigning POA should be done in a lawyers office. That the lawyer is responsible to make sure the person assigning is not being coerced or showing signs of cognitive decline. Also that the person assigned understands what their responsibilities are and what they can and can't do. And that the person assigned signs that they except the appt.

In neither of my appts were we given 2 copies. One for the principle and one for the person assigned and should be. The original should go to the assigned person and a copy to the principle. Really, who is going to need to prove they have POA. TG my Mom kept her important papers together. My nephew, I took the papers with me. Could not trust him not to loose them.
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My money is that it's in a safe deposit box, which of course is the worst place to keep wills, trusts, and POA paperwork. No one can access the box without the paperwork that's kept in the box.
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AlvaDeer Jan 2023
That's what I am thinking.
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I assume you were not with ur GF when he assigned you POA or you would know the lawyer he used? Did you ever see the paperwork to assign you?

It really depends on how the POA is written if its in effect or not. Immediate means as soon as GF signed the paperwork, the POA was in effect. If its Springing, then you need a doctor or more to declare in writing that your GF is not competent to make informed decisions. When that is done, the POA is in effect and not before.

To find the paperwork your just going to need to look for it everywhere, even in books. My Mom had a drawer in her bedroom she used. I have a small filing cabinet. My husband had a metal box before we were married. A box could be hidden on a shelf. Your just going to need to tear the place apart. Look under mattresses. See if he has a safety deposit box.
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gladimhere Jan 2023
There is either a "standing" or "springing" POA in the State of Colorado. Standing has immediate effect, Springing requires, usually concurrence of two doctors before a POA can to go into effect.I

Of course it is unwise to appoint someone that does not accept or is not aware of the responsibility.
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How do you know that the paperwork exists?
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My mom was sure I was POA but on us looking at the paperwork it needs to be activated. Makes sense, as she drafted a lot of stuff ahead of time earlier in her life, otherwise I'd have been her POA for the past 15+ years.

We'd set up fPOA specific to specific banks more recently, the big POA has not needed to be activated yet.

Her car had the catalytic converter cut and all that stuff, etc, I was more than able to handle the car stuff just "speaking for" my mother. Went something like, "I am calling on behalf of my mother, who is currently on hospice with COPD and can't speak for long periods" stuff like that. Then all they needed from my mother was her hello, to confirm a piece of info or two, then her saying it is okay to speak to me. That was it.

There can be the chance that even in his state, this is his one last grab at his independence. It could be irrational or not, but with the cars, seriously, I still have my mom's car here. Sitting forlornly with a brand new CC that with my family's luck will likely also be nicked ;)
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More than likely if you the POA your dad may have a will. Usually he would have a lawyer who filed it with town . Casually while speaking, ask him his lawyers name because you may need one to help him with his car issues and maybe you can help resolve the issue. With this approach he may remember because he is helping to get something back that he wants.
its unfortunate you have to go the back route but I understand the desperation and aggravation.
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Granddad has given you quiet a scare.
He may settle a bit in a few days. He is most likely very stressed with all the recent events. Make sure he is not dehydrated and does not have a UTI. If you can’t get him to his primary for a checkup soon, you can get this checked out at an urgent care. Either can cause him to be more confused and less likely to remember and could have been the reason for his accident.
After he is calmer it is possible he can sign new paperwork if the old doesn’t appear. Notice the time of day when he is sharper. Make an appointment with an elder attorney with that timing in mind.
The attorney will want to speak with GD alone.
Usually a bank will allow him to have someone else listed on the account as long as he is with you when you go to the bank.
Did the police give you his license back? You might need that for ID.
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See if he remembers the lawyer who may have a copy on file. As far as a will, it will need to be an original. Try to go through his house to search for paper and also check the attic. I remember trying to find an original trust paper which happened to be with papers from 2 deceased siblings. Even though mom is now gone, I still keep those papers in a safe for the next generation to find.
For future info, if you ever do your own, see if you can file your papers in probate for a fee
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(NJ)Two years ago my dad spoke with a lawyer about mom's memory loss, money etc. POA was discussed. The lawyer is a family friend, I was there when the call took place. He said the person designated doesn't need to sign. I called the lawyer when my dad was admitted for stroke, I was left to care for my mom and everything else bills, food shopping, etc. I asked him if any paperwork regarding POA for either was signed, he told me no. In my case, zero paperwork was filed. Be prepared for the zero paperwork scenario. It happens.

Now that I have a dementia diagnosis (late stage now) for mom, mom can't sign anything to designate POA.
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My father was also not cooperating with giving me control so I could help him. I got my hands on all the paperwork, bank accounts, etc by having someone take my dad to lunch and keep him away for a few hours. Then I went through everything in both his offices. If he has an old address book lying around look through that as the lawyer info may be there. If you have you grandfathers social security number and date of birth and know his passwords you can go on line to manage accounts.

When they won’t cooperate you have to do things without them knowing to protect them and their assets. The disease itself makes them incapable of understanding they need help. I have basically taken over my dad’s finances for the last 8 months or so and he has no idea the things I have done. I have put things on auto bill pay, removed CCs from him wallet leaving him just one, cancelled CC’s, frozen his credit, moved money from his account restricting how much he has access to, etc. it’s just easier to do it where you can and not even tell them. Out of sight, out of mind with this disease and if it avoids fights then all the better for everyone.
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Sorry you are dealing with this tough situation. Lots of this frankly depends on what is required in your State as each state and even smaller jurisdictions (such as counties or towns) may have specific and unique laws regarding POA, Wills, Trusts and/or any other end of life or estate planning documents. Some require documents to be filed with entities such as the "Register of Wills" whereas other localities do not require any public filing of any such documents.

All to say, you should really get the proper legal advice of an Elder Care and/or a Wills, Trusts and Estate lawyer licensed in your State. They will be able to provide you with what is or what is NOT required in your situation. Contact your State Bar Association or your local Area Agency on Aging to ask if they have the names of such attorneys who may help you.

The local Adult Protective Services may also be of help if resources are limited and it is just unsafe for your GPA to be on his own even if your father is there trying to "manage him." If there is no properly executed paperwork that can be found; it may be time to seek legal guardianship of him through the courts. This can take some time, but it may be the only recourse. APS and Elder Care lawyers may have to step in. In such case, the State would appoint an Elder Care attorney to represent your GPA and the State would also have their own to seek guardianship. You could be named as the guardian OR the State can appoint a lawyer to take on that task. The State would prefer that a close family member serve in this role, but make sure you (if you want this responsibility) are fully aware of all the tasks and paperwork that will be required. You would have a legal and fiduciary duty to handle all of his affairs and in "HIS" best interests. You would want your own legal advice on this if you are not completely aware of what all of this -- serving as his legal guardian -- involves.
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Where did you go to sign? You must agree to be POA, he just can’t make that decision. With that said, POA can change at anytime without your knowledge or consent. Since you signed you were entitled to copy from the lawyer. At this point, he he doesn’t agree to you being POA, file for guardianship post haste.
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Have you looked all around his house? If you can’t find them, the next step would be to talk to an elder law attorney and start proceedings to have him deemed incompetent to look after his own affairs and be named his representative. Then you’ll have the ability to make decisions on his behalf with the oversight of the court. You’ve got plenty of evidence since you’ve got the police record of his license being taken away and his confused state.
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BurntCaregiver Jan 2023
@Dizzerth

They should not run up a bill with elder specialty lawyers. They need to go to the probate court first and petition for conservatorship. The probate court will appoint a lawyer to represent the "interests" of the grandfather. They will not need to hire one for themselves if they have the necessary medical documentation and police records to show the grandfather's incompetence. The lawyer they appoint will have to be paid for by the grandfather's funds though.
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When my mom made me her POA, an official copy was given to her and the original retained by her attorney. I made a copy for my records. After a new comprehensive POA form was developed in our state, I went with her to her attorney to have it updated. In addition to her signature, there was a place for me to sign, confirming my acceptance of being appointed her POA. I made sure copies were given to her Primary Care Doctor, health insurance co., and bank. As a result, I never had a problem communicating with them regarding affairs relating to my mom.

In addition, I was her Health Care Proxy, and Executor. Each year Mom and I would review the POA, HCP, will, and her obituary. We would both sign and date a form I prepared confirming our review. It brought piece of mind to me that she was OK with the decisions she had made. When she died at age 93, I had the legal documents in order, which made it a little easier to deal with her loss.

In your case, sadly, it sounds like there is no a POA out there to find. You note you are named as POA on all of his affairs, but with no proof, how can you be sure? Now is the time to check with your own attorney for guidance on how to proceed. I wish you well.
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You said you tried with Attorneys, but did you also contact the county and State to explain your search?

Documents belong in a secured place in a residence instead of in a safety deposit box at the bank in case you cannot sign in for access. And, what if that branch closes??

For example, When I was designated primary POA, I kept all documents in a secured desk cabinet at home to help my mom. When it got too much for me to help her, I turned all care over to my brother who was the next POA to handle her affairs.
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PatsyN Jan 2023
Absolutely not safety deposit box. My dad had to move his because the bank branch was closing. Died 3 days later, COVID, (thanks to all those deniers) before he had a chance to put anyone else's name on the box. It took us months to access it, even though I had POA and my mom survived. Inside were things like car title/stock certificates. Attorney told me they always advise against them.
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Search the house. Does your grandfather have a safety deposit box at a bank?
If you don't know the law firm who did the POA and can't locate the document, your father (who is grandfather's next of kin) needs to go to the probate court in your town and petition for POA and conservatorship over your grandfather. Your father can tell them at the court that he refuses it and you can accept it. Go with him to the probate court. They will help you and your father.
Is your grandfather out of the hospital?
If he's not you and your father need to ask to speak to a social worker at the hospital and ask for a 'Social Admit'. Tell them that you both refuse to resume care for your grandfather until one of you gets appointed POA and conservator and that he is an unsafe discharge. They will keep him in the hospital until they find a nursing home for him to go to.
If you want to take care of him get conservatorship and when that's done let him come home. Or not.
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I think the original writer had left the building. It has been 2 weeks since the question was asked. Hope everything is ok.
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search his house. check the county court records
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JoAnn29 Jan 2023
Wills are not filed till Probate and POAs do not need to be filed.
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My first thought: if he won't tell you or doesn't remember where the document is, or the lawyer... If he has a cell phone, might there be a contact for the lawyer? Can you gain access to check registers, cancelled checks or credit card records that may have the lawyer's practice name from paying for it? A terribly time-consuming search, and would probably be a last resort.

Separate thought: How do you know if POA (or even a will) is the LAST one created?
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Daphne131 Feb 2023
No one must know thst it was the last one created. If one is found, thst us legally enforceable even if there was one after that. It is the duty of the one saying there was a later POA to prove it.
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How is there access to his device to gain the cell phone access unless you have the password or pattern to do it? Fingerprint is also an ID option to sign in for security reasons.
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The lawyer that wrote it will have a copy of it.
Mine is in a notebook. So you might want to look for something bigger than an envelope.
Check where he would have his contacts - business cards, phone book.
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Check with an elder law attorney as they would be most able to give you guidance in this situation.
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Any cancelled checks in his home? My.Mom kept themself years. Maybe you can find cancelled checks to an attorney. Or check register or credit card statements?
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You say you Grandfather has a Living Will? You could check with any elderly court Attorney giving them right info like his full Name, DOB, Address, and what state it was purchased they should be able to find it. Also if you Know his Social Security number that would be a big help in finding it.
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WallisC: Perhaps you'll have to ascertain that said paperwork exists.
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