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We need to stop a sibling from borrowing money from “the bank of mom” when it often does not get paid back. He’s nearly 60 years old and still uses her checking account and doesn’t have one if his own. It’s constant and she has recently put one of his bills on a credit card she herself could not have paid and asked us other children to pay the bill. Essentially asking us to pay his bill. How do we stop this permanently?

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If your mother is competent then not much. It’s her money, she can do with it what she wants. Unless your brother is leaving your mother in squalor and unsafe in her home, but it sounds like he doesn’t live with her. Does your mother have dementia? Any of her children have POA?

Have you confronted your brother and told him how you feel?
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If your mother is competent, then inform her that she will be on her own if she runs out of money and can't pay a caregiver when the time comes for that. And that you won't be her free caregiver. And that you won't pay your brother's bills for your mother if she takes them on!

How many times on this forum do we see one of the children taking on the care of a parent because there is no money, and then there is a Medicaid penalty period because of the money being given/loaned to one sibling?
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Shell38314 Apr 2019
More time than we can count! My mother was/is one of them!
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You take over your Mom's finances as her POA. Then explain to 60 yr old brother that bank of Mom is permanently closed.
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If your mom is competent you sit her and brother down in the same room and say

" when the time comes that mom needs to be bathed and her diaper changed, I guess you will be the one to do it, since there won't be any funds left to pay for a caregiver. Medicaid want pay because she has gifted all this money to you. Mom, I hope you'll be happy being made a ward of the State and sent to whatever nursing home they have room in. Probably too far away for us to visit."

But only if you're sure mom is competent.
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NeedHelpWithMom Apr 2019
Love it!!!
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Get a POA now that starts immediately. Based on that Mom can no longer handle her finances. Even if there is no Dementia, there is an aging process and an ongoing mindset that we have to help others. Not looking at, we don't have the money. If you can get or have POA, then freeze her credit. If she can't pay the card, she doesn't need it.

Tell brother that Mom can no longer support him. He needs to pay that bill because his siblings are not supporting him.
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katiekat2009 Apr 2019
My bank wouldn't recognize POA so mom added me to her account.
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Drive mom down to the bank and have her remove that child from her account. She can add you which will make things a lot easier to pay her bills and handle her affairs. He could be in a lot of trouble with Social Security if they knew he was spending her money. If you have to set up a new account, be sure to notify Medicare.
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You can have a professional talk with mom. Adult protection, her doctor, her pastor or someone she trusts.
Unfortunately people have the right to make bad choices.
Sometimes having Adult Protection call your sibling has an impact.
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I also see many POA comments. In reality the POA does not do much good if the individual is competent. It is always the best route to include mom or dad they have put their trust in you for a reason as their POA.
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Oh, boy. You just got my blood boiling. My mom was buying grandchildren cars, sending one of them money while in college, & no telling what else. We didn’t have power of attorney at the time so we didn’t have any say so. NOW, Mom is facing Medicaid penalties because of this.

If your mom is competent, there’s really nothing you can do. POA won’t help you. If she needs Medicaid in the next five years, this is going to be a huge problem.
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Heather10 Apr 2019
Mollymoose:

You are exactly right. Even with DPOA or POA, if mom is deemed competent by a court, she can do as she wishes with the money.

Also, telling her what to do could be deemed elder abuse by adult protective services.

Lastly, the really sad thing is that even if the parent has mild dementia, the courts may still deem her competent enough to give gifts to her relatives.

The courts are very reluctant to deem someone incompetent for fear they may be abused by those who are trying to have them deemed incompetent.

Giving one's money away, may be crazy if it causes a medicaid penalty, but it is not enough to deem someone financially incompetent.

There is a fine line between being incompetent and simply acting irresponsible.
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Not much you can do. I heard of a grandma buying a grandchild a $500K home! It's her money.
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NeedHelpWithMom May 2019
That’s just nuts!
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I am afraid there isn't much you can do. If possible have your mom start a new acct with your name on it.

I went through this with my mother and brother, because my mother was considered competent there was nothing I could do but sit back and watch the train wreck. Now, she has no money so guess who doesn't call her anymore.

And if your brother is like mine; you can't take them to small claims court or have them pay it back because they have no money, nor is there any proof! "Can't get blood out of a turnip."

Sorry:(
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NeedHelpWithMom Apr 2019
Yep! They aren’t going to pay any money back. A loan is a gift in their case.
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Whether this will work depends on your own situation. If you have a network of family and friends, tell sibling that you will inform all of them about what is happening. And of course, tell him that you won't be paying his bills either. Sometimes shame will work. If you tell mother that is what you are going to do, it might help to convince her to change her financial arrangements to minimise the risks, eg by taking him off as a signatory to her check account. She may not want him to be shamed to all the family, or for herself to look like a noddy.
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You have to be firm with your mother and ask her to make all transactions dual signature. No credit card. Two names on the bank accounts and cheque books No atm card. No over the counter transactions
she cant stop herself. Have it ready to go by taking her to the bank

my MIL has given my BIL over 200K over the last 20 years
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Abby2018 Apr 2019
Yep....and still living the nightmare. What are parents thinking when they do that?
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My first thought was, wow that is going to be a huge problem if she ever needs to be in a nursing home through Medicaid! Maybe if you sit everyone down and explain that everything that is "lent" or given to another person is going to be that much of a penalty when the time comes to get Medicaid. And it's a five year lookback. So who is going to pay that? That might stop your mom or your sibling, but it is doubtful. Your mom will probably be in denial or even insulted by suggesting she go to a nursing home one day and your sibling probably doesn't care. I have found that people are the way they are and there is not much you can do about it. If you can find your mom legally incompetent, then you can get control of her money, but she would have to have dementia or Alzheimer's to do that. Otherwise, on the bright side, home health aides through Medicaid only have a 3 month lookback. Good luck.
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This is so common. We just found out that my husbands dead beat sister cost his mom her house....In their blind worship and devotion, inlaws put SIL onto house deed and then SIL goes bankrupt and forecloses on her own house she bought with some deadbeat guy. SIL was also a drug addict and inlaws knew it. She could do no wrong in their eyes. Since she was listed on my inlaw's deed they came for MIL house too. MIL had to buy her own house back. She kept this from my husband until 2 years after SIL overdosed in MIL's home where she was living THEN MIL goes and buys Deadbeat a new car even after the house ordeal!!! Unreal. SIL had MIL snowed that she was dying from a lung disease. All along she was addicted to drugs and MIL giving money and cars even after the house issue. The excuse was always that my husband does not need money because he is straight and works and saves his money. It has been 2 years since SIL died and MIL just now coming to terms with guilt of what she did giving her money, cars, etc. I have never seen anything like this. This kind of thing never would have flown in my own family! Some parents are so blinded and probably get lied to and conned by a bad sibling. Now my MIL is depressed with guilt for shelling out, and my husband and I are her only caregivers. Hard to take.
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NeedHelpWithMom May 2019
I get it Katie, my brother was a heroin addict. He is dead now from HepC. He overdosed several times. Parents always bailed him out.
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We experienced this as well. Like others have said have a family meeting. We showed Mom’s spending and income. We contacted the credit card company and reported suspicious activity which closed her account. We left the credit card with her because she felt better having the card. We had to constantly pull out the POA.
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Sadly...you can’t as long as your mom goes along with it. My brother lives with my mom and keeps her in the edge of financial degradtion constantly. Gone thru 250k since ny dad died. So far she can pay her monthly bills...but any extras come from my pocket. Hard to take after working so hard my whole life so i could have a nice retirement. Prayers for you and your family...
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If you find a way to stop it, I'd love to hear about it. My brother "borrowed" money from my mom for years - into the 5 digit range. When it came time that mom couldn't live alone, he didn't offer to take her in even though he had the room. I brought her to live with me right after my divorce and she insisted on paying half the utilities, upkeep and groceries. The arrangement worked fine for both of us. I looked after her and my kids and I did the cooking, house and yard work, took her to medical appointments, shopping, and events she wanted to attend. When she was sick or hurt, I took care of her. I did her paperwork, paid her bills and did her banking at her request. It was her idea to add me to her account at the credit union we both belonged to in order to facilitate the banking. Knowing all of that, my brother had the gall to tell anyone and everyone that mom was supporting me! He knows I don't have POA - her trustee does and he and I work together to keep mom's finances in order. He often expresses distrust of the trustee, whom my mother hand picked to administer her trust. Now that mom is in memory care, I've told both my siblings that they can take over her banking if mom agrees to it. My sister has no problem with me handling it and says she trusts me over both herself and my brother. My mother refuses to let either of them handle it, so the accusations continue.
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Judysai422 Apr 2019
You should NOT be a joint on moms bank account. It puts a liability on both of you should one of you get sued. You should be POA on the account, but never a joint owner.
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For over 10 years, my Grandmother (age 84 to age 94 years old) used to give my two adult female cousins money whenever they asked for it and even changed her Will so that they would receive 50% of the family farm.  Then 5 years into this "Giving", my Brother moved from the West Coast back to the Midwest and Grandma apparently realized that she had two grandchildren who had her last name who could inherit the family farm so she changed her Will back so that only my Father inherited it (so that his Son/my Brother and then his children would inherit the family farm.)  But Grandma still met with my two cousins on country roads and gave them money from her SS checks.  Dad had to pay ALL of Grandma's utilities b/c she said that they were charging too much and refused to pay them.  Eventually when Grandma was 90 yrs old, Dad got Conservatorship of Grandma's finances (b/c of the farmland) and was able to stop the flow of money to the two cousins.

My cousins even "sweet-talked" my Grandma's 90+ year old Brother to give them money, used cars, used mobile homes, pay their house rent, etc.  We have determined that they got $50,000 - 80,000+ from Grandma and $80,000 - $100,000+ from her Brother during the 10 years before their deaths.

The only way to stop the "money bleeding" was for my Dad to petition for Conservatorship of Grandma.

If you can prove that your Mom is giving your sibling her Social Security money as soon as it is deposited into the bank or as soon as the check is cashed, you might be able to have the sibling charged with Fraud against Social Security and Financial Abuse of an Elderly Person.

Does your Mom live by herself or with this sibling?  Do you think that your Mom will be needing to go into a nursing home and needing Medicaid in the next 5 years?   If so, then you need to have a family conference to discuss your Mom's future health care needs and how she is going to pay for them.  (I am guessing that your Mom is in her 80's?)  Medicaid looks back 5 years to see how much money your Mom has "gifted" or given to anyone and will penalize your Mom for giving her money away instead of saving it for her care. Who is your Mom's DPOA for Finances and Healthcare?
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Geez.....I can totally relate. Older brother has been using my parents as his private ATM for over twenty years and wracked up an astronomical amount of money. Certainly enough for them to live in an AL for five years without even touching their nest egg. Unfortunately my dad is of sound mind and wants to protect remaining assists, even though mom has dementia and will get progressively worse. Sister and I do what we can without seriously impacting our own lives. Just can’t do more than what we are and when the time comes for intervention I expect serious resistance.
That said....How old is your mom and have you noticed cognitive decline? Is there any way to convince her to give either you or another sibling DPOA? If so, get that name on checking and CC, and any assests she may have asap and inform brother financially he needs to fend for himself. Certainly not an simple fix with family dynamics such as they are, but a necessary one.....especially when you’ve reached the point when siblings are approached to pay for deadbeats bills. You have to prepare for the possibility of long term care for your mom..... and her generosity to your brother can truly impact the type of care she receives with penalties incurred because of the Medicaid five year look back.

Good luck...it saddens me to know you are going through this as well. Not only does a situation like this raise anxiety levels, but we also have the emotional impact that needs to be dealt with. Not easy by any stretch.
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"Financial exploitation occurs when a person misuses or takes the assets of a vulnerable adult for his/her own personal benefit. This frequently occurs without the explicit knowledge or consent of a senior or disabled adult, depriving him/her of vital financial resources for his/her personal needs." Report to Adult Protective Services in your state. Financial exploitation is a form of Elder Abuse and is sanctioned by the law.
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slp1684 Apr 2019
Agree, this is Elder Abuse.. Do yourself a favor and report it, right away.
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When Your mother is in a good mood like complimenting you for something you did or how much you care for her, Tell her that you need her help. That will make her feel special. Tell her that you and the others have been hurting because of her generosity. You realize she didn't do it to hurt you but to help him, But it is hurting all of you. Change the billing from your mother's credit card. You can do that online. I manage all dad's bills and our household bills online. Notify all her creditors In writing that your brother is not authorized to make any withdrawals or purchases. Take your mother into the bank, if you can. Tell your brother that he will be guilty of fraud if he tries it again. Even though this seems harsh, You're doing it to protect your mother and Yourselves. If you wanna take another step and have your brother work out a repayment agreement for the credit card bills that your mother couldn't afford, Drawed up and have him sign it and have it notarized. If your brother is truly in need, direct him to sources who can help him. Remember Ann Landers said you can Only be trodden upon if you lay on the floor like a welcome mat and let people walk over you.
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Start by having an intervention with your brother. All the siblings need to be in the room at the same time. Explain to your brother than mom needs to have enough funds to pay for her care when she needs it and that ALL of you (however many there are) will be sitting down with mom to go over her finances and explain that her future care will cost between $40,000 and $100,000 per year. She has to reserve her assets for that and cannot afford to support her son. It's important to stick together in addressing this, otherwise factions form around details. The big picture gets lost and mom gets played by the brother.

Try to keep it very factual. If you can muster it without sarcasm or anger, talk with your brother about how you might help him to budget so that he can meet his expenses without mom's help.

Do not try to get mom to agree that she shouldn't be supporting her son. She believes what she believes and she has a right to. She may even think that it's reasonable to expect her other children to help support him. Don't try to change a mom's mind about her kids.

Stick to the facts. She will need that money in the near future and it needs to be there for her or she will not have any choices about her independence.
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Kittybee Apr 2019
Not to be cynical, but if he's gotten really used to tapping mom for money, he might not really care about her future, or he might dismiss OP's concerns, and he might continue to figure out ways around a request to stop. It may need stronger measures.
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Is mother competent? Is bro disabled or broke? Mom able to handle finances? Does anyone have poa & health proxy? Keep track of any $$$ going to anything other than mom’s care & her house. Keep bank statements. It may count as gift penalty down the road for Medicaid purposes. Which delays benefits. Hugs 🤗
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Your mom has a soft spot for her child. Child sometimes get into a habit. The only way is to get money out of account into one you can control,close the credit card, close the atm card. Tell mom you will take care of any incoming bills, have them sent to your home or PO BOX. Make sure sibling doesn't get a chance to open an account with MOM, because he can.

POA should be put in place, I think.

And then tell Mom you will be taking charge of all HER bills and her accounts. Make sure Mom only has $5.00 in account at all times. You will need to babysit mom's money flow.
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First off, is your mom competent ? If she has not been declared incompetent than she has the right to pay brother's bills from her funds, but I'd make it clear that the rest of the children will not pay her bills, because if she can cover brother's bills, then she has the money to pay her own bills.  I'd make it very clear that you and your siblings will not be her money well.  Period.  Also, you might remind her of Medicaid gifting rules.
If she is a basically reasonable woman, then try to have a nitty gritty talk about the realities of aging - how she will need ALL her money for her own care.  Hate to say it, but be brutally frank of this.  No softening or she will assume she can talk you around if necessary.
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NeedHelpWithMom Apr 2019
Yep, good idea. May shake her up and think twice about giving more money to the brother.
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Have a brother just like this. Recommend you talk with your brother, not your Mom, who's maternal instincts will be to hand over anything he wants no matter what you say. My brother had no qualms about asking Mom for thousands of dollars even though Mom was dying. Mom agreed to keep it a secret. We didn't know about it until Mom's best friend told us. As difficult as it may be, you need to confront him. My sister, other brother, and I all sat him down and confronted him together, which made it a little easier. You may have to threaten to report your brother to the police if he doesn't get it. Unfortunately, that's what we had to do because he denied everything. He didn't get it until we threatened him. Don't think the police can do anything about it, but my brother didn't know
that. :)
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If Mom is competent, this is her business. Period.
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NeedHelpWithMom Apr 2019
She has dimentia.
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You state that your Mom has dementia.
Based on this she should not be taking care of her own finances.
You can seek Guardianship of your mother. By doing this you will have control over her accounts. You would become Guardian of the person and the estate.
Guardianship is NOT easy and there is paperwork involved but it will protect her assets. All purchases have to be documented and any withdrawal will be reviewed by the court.
If your Mom has to apply for Medicaid any "loans" will be problematic and either have to be repaid or it will delay the acceptance of Medicaid.
I suggest an Elder Care Attorney that will help with the Guardianship and possibly finding a way to get "deadbeat" son to either repay loans or possibly begin a suit for repayment, or threaten to bring charges of elder financial abuse.
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You need to have POA or guardianship.

Don't help with the bills - this is enabling. Use her request for help as an opportunity to talk with her about her finances and the issues with medicaid. This may best be done with an elder lawyer familiar with medicaid. At the same time draw up POA etc if it has not been done.

Your bro is extremely dependent if at age 60 he is still using her bank account, She is extremely co-dependent that she allows this. Interfering with this (however necessary) will be difficult.

I agree report this to APA, her doctor and her bank. Does she have any signs of dementia?
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Grandma1954 Apr 2019
Mom has dementia I do not think she can appoint anyone POA at this time.
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