How do we control mom’s finances?

Simple answer is that you are told she has adequate mental capacity to make her own decisions. As long as that is true you cannot dictate how she spends her money. When she no longer has funds she won't afford a caregiver and will be in a nursing home on Medicaid.

Only with her permission at this time can you act as financial POA over her accounts. When my brother was diagnosed with probable early Lewy's dementia he ASKED me to take over his bills, his accounts, as POA and as Trustee of his Trust. We set this up together in his attorney's office. He had a small spending account. I gave him a monthly accounting and kept meticulous records for him, and as his trustee/poa we set up all the banking accounts with a bank officer. WITH HIS AGREEMENT.

As Mom is not yet diagnosed as incompetent in her own decision making by two doctors I am afraid you are sunk. I would resign my POA and let her have at it. Since she already lost the bulk of the estate there's no sense fretting what she has left and what she wants to do with it. I would make it clear to her she is on her own now with her finances, and in future is as well.

you can put a limit on how much she can spend on a credit card. Like say $200 and when she hits that she can’t spend anymore until it’s paid off.

Let her get insistent then. You have her POA and can withhold money from her if she is spending it excessively on nonsense and not leaving enough for her bills and actual needs.
Give her a set amount every week spending money and that's it. The rest has to go towards her bills and needs.

If you are joint on the accounts and not just an authorized user, you can totally shut down the accounts and open new accounts in just your name. Only as an authorized user instead of joint would the POA be necessary to access her bank accounts. And under the POA you can gain access to any credit accounts or even sign up online for monitoring any credit cards/accounts if the POA is durable and not springing.

OR,

With your help, SHE can sign up online to control her accounts if the POA is springing. 😉

OR,

Another much more expensive option is to get a financial conservatorship much like Brittany Spears was under. Conservatorship is a long and expensive legal process and it requires a lot more involvement in time, effort and responsibilities on your part. However, as it is judge signed, you would have FULL control of whatever the judge orders.

OR,

Resign, walk away and let her spend herself into oblivion and Medicaid eligible. Then later you're stuck with all the extra stuff bought. 😁

How long ago was mom assessed to be competent and was the testing done by a neurologist rather than a primary care doctor? Seems like the decision of her competency may have changed or been based on a less than thorough evaluation. This isn’t the behavior of a person with a sound mind. If an updated or better evaluation isn’t possible, I’d keep those two accounts and siphon money to the one she doesn’t have a debit card on, in amounts she’s not as likely to notice. And the caregiver needs to do other activities with mom outside of shopping

I would get her a full neuropsych workup.

While you're waiting for the neuropsych report move the money into term deposits, tell her it makes better interest that way.

Take advantage of the power of persuasion.

Teach the caregiver to become faint and need to go home immediately before any large purchases are made. Tell the sales person, you all will be back.

Inventory the home to determine if everything purchased is in fact in your Mom's home, in her possession.

Make a report to APS regarding a senior unable to self-care and manage her money to pay her bills. Report that she is being exploited to buy large ticket items. Let APS make their recommendations.

Mom can voluntarily cooperate with a budget. Otherwise, she requires more help than you can personally provide.

1) You can quit.
2) The caregiver can quit.
3) Then APS can show up.

Example:
Mom, I see you bought a new T.V.
Do you want us to come over and hook it up?
Give you access to the home, in detail.

Some caregivers have gone so far as to return items to the store.
What are they going to do, ask where it is after they have forgotten
that they purchased it?

Sorry this is so hard, but imo you need to outsmart Mom, while still protecting her dignity, safety, and rights. If this is impossible, bring in professional help.

Never continue to care for someone who has called the police on you.
You are, and will be, damned if you do, or damned if you don't.

Your profile says Mom has a Dementia. If your POA is immediate, you need no dictor to declare her competent. If Springing, and she has not been declared incompetent by a doctor or more (read POA to see how many) then get it done and get a letter stating it. The whole reason to have financial POA is to protect Mom. Freeze her credit cards and start paying them off. No more access to her accts. Get her a debit card that u put so much money on a month.

Anyone who buys already what she has tons of and can no longer can do simple math has a cognitive problem. Take her to a Neurologist. He can give her a more in depth test.

Hi,

I want to clarify some things about C (conservatorship) and G (guardianship).

“A conservatorship is a grant of power over an incapacitated individual.”

This is the legal definition. It’s not my definition.

C is only for financial matters.
G is full control (medical decisions, finances, everything).

For C:
The person (conservatee) (OP’s mother) MUST be mentally incompetent/incapacitated: the two terms are the same, although the latter (incapacitated) generally is used when it’s transitory.

By the way, if you have G, you don’t need C, because G gives you full power over the person.

C is not about needs.
G is not about physical.
G is FULL CONTROL over everything.

C is only control over finances.

It’s possible one doesn’t fully understand why the judges in this or that case allowed for example C. It’s possible one believes one got C because the person was financially irresponsible. This is incorrect. The reason is always the same: the person was judged mentally incompetent/incapable.

OP, it’s very costly to try to get C or G. You will lose. Why? Because your mother was recently diagnosed mentally competent: social worker, doctors are already involved in your mother’s situation.

Your mom was diagnosed mentally competent (same thing as mentally capable). It means she’s allowed to make her own decisions, financially, medically, all of it.

A judge will only allow C or G, if the person is mentally incompetent/incapable. This is the law.

POA and G and C aren’t the same thing.

Some POAs are in effect, even though the person is still mentally competent. That’s the type of POA I have: immediate effect upon signing. If my mom disagrees with my decision as POA, since she’s mentally competent she has the final word.

If the person is mentally incompetent, POA has the final word, and there’s no need for G, BUT keep in mind the ultimate/highest “power” is G.

Example: The State suddenly wants G. You have POA. You try to win against the State to get G. In your case, you lost. The State now has G (highest control) and your POA has been trumped. Your POA is now invalid.

Another example: You have POA (both financial and medical). But the State tries to get C over the person. In your case, you lost. The State now has power to decide finances, you don’t. But you can make other decisions as POA (like medical decisions). This doesn’t normally happen (that the State only goes after C), because the State will normally go for G (FULL CONTROL).

Another example: a celebrity has a lot of money. The celebrity is temporarily mentally incompetent/incapacitated (alcohol, drugs). A family member tries to get C, wins.

Let’s see if I can provide some more details. I do not have POA over all of my mom’s finances. I just have POA for her bank accounts, which she added me to as a POA. There are no credit cards, loans, or anything else. Well, there is a credit card but it is zero balance and never gets used for anything. I use the POA to pay all mom’s expenses, because she has proven that she cannot manage that. That is why she granted me POA: to be able to access her bank account and pay her bills for her.

She has seen several neurologists, a neuropsychologist, and other doctors in addition to her primary care doctor. She has had a complete health assessment and a neuropsychological evaluation. The diagnosis is that she has moderate cognitive impairment most likely as a result of Alzheimer’s. The doctors and social workers agree that she needs help with some activities for daily living such as managing her medications but that she can live on her own as long as she has a caregiver, which she does. They know I have POA over her finances and agree that is a good thing given mom can no longer do math. However, they also think that she has capacity to be able to enter into legally binding agreements such as the POA, advanced directives, and so on. Well, not exactly. Their opinion on this is split. Her neurologist says she does not have capacity. The neuropsychologist she interviewed with does. Her previous PCP does. Her new PCP (she switched) said she would need to consider it more. So I have two letters that say she has capacity but two doctors also refused to vouch for that.

I spoke to an attorney about this and he said that a person would have to be pretty far gone to not be able to specify who they wanted as their POA for example and so we would not likely be able to obtain a conservatorship or guardianship. He said the letters that say she has capacity are useful because it means we can obtain more control merely by mom’s consent without having to go the court. So I am not sure if having those is working for me or against me.

Meanwhile, mom figured out that not all of her money was in the one account she had a debit card for and demanded the debit card for the other account. I was forced to give it to her by adult protective services who is now investigating me as a result of her complaint to the police. I am confident they will find no wrongdoing on my part so I am not too worried about that.

My concern is, as was stated before, that now that she has access to all the money she will spend her account down to zero and there won’t be any money to pay for her caregiver which she needs to have in order to live on her own. I also realized after looking at the paperwork that I signed up to be a guarantor for the caregiver so I think that means if she racks up a big debt I am on the hook for that.

Meanwhile, I still have POA because she hasn’t thought to (or doesn’t want to) revoke that. I am not sure she is capable given that it has to be in writing and notarized. She would need some help with that.

As of now there is still enough money in her accounts but it is just a matter of time until she spends more than she should. She has been going out to lunch and spending $50-100 each time. I don’t think she even realizes the cost. The caregiver said it is because mom wants to get extra helpings of food “for dinner and the next day” and of course she offers to pay for the caregiver’s meal, too. The caregiver gives me the receipts and I am satisfied nothing untoward is happening except that mom just doesn’t consider the cost at all. She has a pretty big pension and so she is used to being able to buy/do what she wants within reason but that just can’t happen with this big caregiver expense she has now.

It sounds like my best option is to give up the POA, let her do her own thing, fail at it, and then let the state get involved again to place her. I was hoping I could avoid all of that by managing her money for her.

At this point, would your mother be open to giving you a full financial DPOA and not just a bank account POA?

Does your mom still go through all the bank statements? If not, you could possibly set up a third account as a private savings account and automatically transfer a set amount every month for safe keeping. Possibly transfer the amount for a caregiver each month to assure a few more months of future caregiving if the other two accounts are drained. Another way is put some in CDs with several years before expiring. If she has to know, you can explain these as a way to earn extra and convince her they are untouchable... even though you can cash them out with a penalty if YOU need to.

If you haven't already consulted one, search for an elder care attorney... some offer first consult appointment at no charge. If you do this communicate privately you are trying to protect her from herself and why. Hopefully the attorney could be prepared to offer solutions in a way that she understands everything suggested is to protect her from strangers and the risks of not doing certain steps... which is all true. An irrevocable trust may be in order and hopefully it is not too late, but maybe not if you still have professionals saying she can make decisions.

So many elderly have been scammed or financially abused by strangers. One example is if she is convinced to marry and then the husband gain full control. Six months after my mother died, my father remarried. Neither had much at all but he had a mobile home and nice lot that was paid for. She decided they should sell his home and move closer to her children. The home was already in a trust before my mother died, with my sister in charge, so he was able to say no. My father finally separated from her, but still felt responsible so he allowed her to stay in the home. When my sister took my father back to check on her and get a few more things the wife called the sheriff and he told her that my father and sister were legal to be on the property. It was so sad because my father never believed in divorce but was forced into one for his sanity and health. She had presented herself to have the same Christian values my father did. While we could not prevent the marriage, financial planning before my mother died helped him preserve some of his financial security after he remarried. The short two years they were married could probably provide enough story lines to keep Jerry Springer on the air forever.

I haven’t seen anyone mention—at what point will this spending be a problem for medicaid look-back? My own sister is watching her to stretch her money closely to not send up flags. When OP says mom might run out of money to pay caregivers, what would come next? Seems giving some thought to Medicaid and its requirements might be useful.

Do you have financial POA or Durable POA. Durable POA requires that 2 doctors diagnose incompetance.

Have your mom checked for competency.
If it comes down to it you may need to file for guardianship.
My daddy was easy going I just took over but it sounds like your mom is not that easy going.

The best way to handle this problem without incurring any expense is to request a meeting with the bank manager at your mother’s bank and ask for advice on this problem with your mother’s excessive spending and mentioning to the bank manager that you have POA for your mother. Otherwise, seek the advice of an elder law attorney.

In reading your further information below it sounds as though your moms income comes from a pension that provides her monthly income and Mom realized she had issues with money when she lost her house and made you her POA. She has put you in charge of her bill paying and money management as a result of all of that so it sounds like she wants to pay her bills as opposed to not caring and the problem is she’s just not able to process numbers anymore. How about telling her your concerned about being able to pay her bills with the current set up and suggesting you put aside the funds needed each month to pay her bills, rent, utilities, food, caregiver…as well as a certain amount to act as a buffer/savings in case expenses get higher one month or something else happens. This is “paid” to her bills account the one you use to pay those bills or have the payments withdrawn from automaticity. What’s left in her spending account is for her spending or saving, up to her. Being told she has an allowance may be different from having her spending account. You could even have that be the one her monthly income is deposited to and then the first thing that’s done is an automatic withdrawal to her bills account, this way she can see what happens and even though the numbers don’t make sense to her the concept of paying her bills does. She should be able to do whatever she wants with her money, she earned it but like all of us she has necessities she has chosen that come out of that first.

Now I want to address a few other things that jumped out in your further info. The first is that you signed the caregiver contract as a guarantor rather than as her POA. Always sign as POA because you are right you have made yourself the fall back if she can’t or doesn’t pay. If that was a requirement for some reason find out why and if not maybe you can sign a new contract as POA, especially if the hours are needing to be increased this might be a good opportunity. Also as I’ve been going down this road with my mother too I can tell you that the inability to understand numbers is common and certainly a sign, it will get worse and you should make sure you have DPOA or springing POA now while you still can. It doesn’t have to be presented to Mom as being all about money as suspicion is also a sign and symptom that can get worse, you can focus on the need to make medical decisions as well and what happens if she isn’t able to appoint you anymore and you don’t have the authority to take care of her. POA technically only gives you that authority while she is able to direct you not if she isn’t able to agree. You may live in a state that automatically makes it a DPOA unless specified otherwise and the attorney that took care of that for you saw the writing on the wall and you don’t have to worry about it but if there isn’t a method for you to make decisions for her in the event she is unable you need to get that while someone deems her capable. You care about your mom and want to do everything you can for her so don’t resign as POA, it doesn’t require you to act or be responsible in any way it simply allows it and my understanding is a DPOA doesn’t either it simply allows it if she is unable to make decisions or direct you to act. The only requirement is that you act in her best interest which is what you want to do. Don’t give up your POA sure it up and try including your mother in the needed decisions in a way that makes her see it your way and agree you should do whatever it is. Give her the control to say that’s a good idea rather than feeling like she is loosing the control. She probably is loosing the control and knows it which I know with my mom makes her dig in about having control. Unfortunately that often means letting her try, say using her phone and fail which crushes her and is so hard to watch but while sometimes we can gently talk her through why she needs help when she is in that control mode there often isn’t much more we can do. Safety is the line

taimedowne: Tell mom that the caregiver's auto is broken/no way to get to the retail therapy either via bus, taxi or ANY other means. Perhaps she should not have access to any of her monies as she is unable to process numbers at all.

Get a thorough evaluation by her medical doctor. Let the doctor know about her spending habits and difficulties with money and math. I am sure he or she will deem her mentally incompetent. Get that in writing from the doctor. Then, continue to "help" your mom with her finances... And make sure that POA covers both her finances and her medical decisions.

My Mom is a Hoarder. I looked into cutting her off if credit cards etc but because she had full capacities I could not do that. I tru to work with her but she is 90, bedridden and still shopping.

she runs out if long term care insurance this fall and will be private pay to the tune of $8,250 a month. Reality may hit then

Which type of POA do you have and who has it?

I followed mom's attorney's advice and stepped in where necessary and once I began helping I didn't stop... he said it isn't a faucet that turns off and on but a steady stream continually moving forward as needed. I didn't let bills pile up...I used her inability to remember to pay them as a reason to step in because my mom has dementia, I knew when I began this journey that memory care may be the only care option and that is pricey! I really studied and asked tons of questions of all the people who were in positions to know answers and it has served me well. I had to allow her to fumble a few times before stepping in and I didn't do it in a demeaning type way -- although she would likely beg to differ. She now has a dementia diagnosis and is on hospice with some medical issues aside from cognitive decline. Staying at home with her has been a blessing.