My husband and I have been with my 90 year old parents since before Thanksgiving. It is now January 2nd. My husband had to go home to work in another state. My mom got a respiratory infection and was sent to the hospital due to fluid in her extremities and low oxygen. She’s now on oxygen. I stayed behind to care for her and help out my Dad. I thought that she would get better in a few weeks. It’s not the oxygen problem that she can’t deal with when I leave, it’s that she can’t reach back to wipe her rear because she’s too heavy in her stomach. Granted she’s sitting on a high toilet seat with grab bars, but even before we got that, she didn’t want to wipe herself. Then she wants me to bring her a bed pan into the kitchen while my Dad was cooking in the kitchen, also outside on the common area balcony in front of her door, in the living room - to urinate instead of walking to the bathroom. My Dad said she gets out of bed on her own, wipes herself upfront and gets back into bed by herself. When my wonderful husband told her Mom you need to start trying to become independent again like you were, she went crazy on him and told me go home to your husband. He is the most compassionate person in the world. My mom said to him I want to thank you for you giving up your wife - what does this mean? For how long does she think I’m going to stay around just to wipe her? She said I would never have your father to that. I don’t like to use my father’s car so I’m trapped. I also brought my puppy who needs exercise. She told me don’t be long walking him. Also, she’s supposed to be losing weight and she’s eating cookies, etc. So why do I have to wipe her if she can’t reach back because she’s heavy and she’s not helping herself? My husband and I are in our 60’s and about to retire and she won’t even walk to help herself! It’s so unfair! I bought her a tool to help her reach back and she doesn’t want to try it. If she can’t wipe herself now, I can’t just live with her to just stay around to wipe her. So sorry everyone! PS I had breast cancer and need to go to my doctors too.
I totally agree with you about this whole story being a farce and likely even some troll just having a laugh. Now I think on it, I agree with what you say here most of the time.
Reading and posting helps pass the long hours I spend in the office alone.
If 'Max' is who she says she is (and is in fact even a 'she') and her story is true she should consider actually writing a book of excuses.
I say that book would be a best-seller because I've never seen a person who has one for everything.
You didn't make her needy.
Either she asked you to do this or you volunteered because you thought she needed company. Because she acted like she did.
Your mother is like a deep black hole of need that YOU didn't cause. She is made this way, either because of the trauma of her childhood, genetics or some combination of the two.
The question on the table is how do you get your life back.
You start with therapy, because at this point, Max, your likely depend upon being able to put YOUR needs before hers.
There is an advantage in going to in person caregiver support groups. We are seeing people face to face. It’s nice. I was happy that I found an in person group that was led by a social worker who had a lot of experience.
There are long time caregivers who were stuck for various reasons. I know because I was one of them. So, we can’t automatically assume someone is a troll.
If people are real, it’s great that they are asking for help. They also need help from a therapist. Most people on the forum have suggested therapy to many posters that are stuck from FOG.
It’s frustrating if people don’t understand what is being said to them. This happens all the time. It doesn’t have to be an online forum to experience it.
Ignore remarks accusing you of being a troll. Or throw it right back, you could say, “How do I know that you aren’t a troll?”
No one knows anything unless they have met up with someone in person! So, don’t be concerned about what others think.
As long as you know what is true, isn’t that all that matters?
FOG isn’t something that people get over very quickly.
If you haven’t experienced it, fantastic! If you have, you should know what it is like. Does anyone resolve their issues overnight?
Look at how long some people stay in a bad marriage before getting divorced? These things can take time. It’s wonderful when they do get divorced and get their lives back. That is the bottom line.
Some people stay attached to their parents longer than others. Hopefully, one day they will break free. Let’s hope that they decide on their own, rather than waiting for death. People are living longer lives than they were years ago.
We are all very sad that you are struggling and I wish you peace as you continue on.
Still, there isn’t any need to take your frustration out on Max.
Everyone has struggled with one thing or another. Did you forget that Max has upcoming oncology appointments? Her life hasn’t been easy. I would classify dealing with cancer a ‘real’ problem. Wouldn’t you?
I sincerely hope that things will improve for you. Take care of yourself.
It is a good idea for you to skip this thread since it seams to annoy you so much.
Yeah, we have all struggled in one way or another.
It sounds like you are dealing with anticipatory grief. I went through this too.
We grieve for when they could do for themselves and enjoy their lives.
We know that their quality of life has diminished and that they will be dying in the not too distant future.
So, we start the grieving process before they actually die.
This was Max's first post from the year Dec 2015! Thats 7 years ago. Not all of us were members back then. I am pretty sure she got the same suggestions back then she is getting now. Max seems to want to change 90 yr old parents but what she needs to change is her and how she responds to her parents.
I can see how this all started. Only child, no children. Getting together for vacations and visits. That was OK when parents were young but they are no longer young. And now Max is a senior too with health problems that her parents don't seem to think is serious.
Max, you need to learn how to deal with 2 elderly people that you did not make needy but as my daughter says "you made these monsters". Its going to be hard to set boundries but u need to. Your parents need Assisted living. There is no way you can plan on living in Europe with your parents on their own. And I think it will never happen if your parents don't make changes. I asked this before, do they realize how serious your cancer is? You have to hit the 5 yr mark to be able to say ur cured. You need therapy NOW. Stop procrastinating. (I am one)
What you need is to sit your parents down, look them in the eye and say, you need to go into Assisted Living because I can no longer be at your beck and call. I have breast cancer. Yes, I am doing well but there are no guarantees. And because of that, I need to travel with my husband and do things for us. Explain to them that they are putting undo stress on you. I don't think you are taking your health serious enough.
What role do covert narcissistic mothers play?
- They play the role of the victim
- Daughters of narcissistic mothers often become enmeshed with their parent, losing contact with their true self and growing up without boundaries.
- Mom keeps the relational tension leash tight and doesn’t let up until you’ve shown your fealty to her. She keeps you second-guessing until you have figured out what she thinks you have done wrong and are working to get back in her good graces.
- Mind reading is a requirement to stay in Mom’s good graces. And since it is hell on earth to be outside of them, you are a willing student.
- Mom will say she loves all her children equally, but her actions tell a different story.
- Because she is used to putting Mom’s needs ahead of her own, she has normalized much of Mom’s behavior.
- With a “you know how your mother is,” the expectation is that she will get her way no matter the cost.
- When you are raised by a mother who is either high in these Covert Narcissistic Traits or has full-blown NPD, your self-esteem suffers; you doubt yourself constantly.
- they are passive-aggressive and use manipulation to get their way instead of bullying and overt force.
- Covert narcissists are also known as vulnerable or inverted narcissists.
- Volatility, instability, mood swings, and the lack of resilience, are all traits of a mother with BPD.
- A covert narcissist is a narcissist who disguises their need for power, admiration, and entitlement by appearing meek and vulnerable. Underneath it all, they are both driven to cover up their insecurity- just in seemingly opposite ways.
Every bit of this is from a single article - 12 Unmistakable Signs of a Covert Narcissistic Mother -
https://daughtersrising.info/2021/04/09/covert-narcissistic-mother/
Daughters of narcissistically defended mothers typically sacrifice their own emotional authenticity in order to keep their mothers happy. In short, they don't know how they feel. They only know how they should behave in order to fulfill Mom's needs and how they should make her feel.
Max, please wake up. Please realize what you are dealing with. For your own sake. For your husband's sake. At the very least it helps to know what you are dealing with so that you can deal with it head on. I know you love your mother. But at some point- she is going to need more than even you can give her. And then what?
My mom’s brother lived to be 96. He had Parkinson’s disease like my mom had.
He served in WW11, Korea and Vietnam. He had five children. None of his kids were his caregivers. He was cared for very well in a skilled nursing facility.
My cousins dearly loved and admired their dad but they lived their own lives. They buried him in his uniform.
The next time mom calls, I want you to have a script ready.
"Mom, I am having some health issues and we won't be coming to visit for the foreseeable future. Given how much help both you and dad need, and given that you are both likely to start having more frequent health problems, the best decision will be for you to move into an Assisted Living Facility soon.
I know that's a big change and moving is a lot of work. There are companies you can hire to do that."
Practise this in front of a mirror.
Don't respond to any venom she spews at you, or to tears, or screaming.
Say "Mom, I love you, but we can't keep doing this "rescue" thing. Think about what I've said and we'll talk next week when you're calm."
Max, your father needs to check into Aid and Attendance benefits right away.
My Mom lies sometimes and says my Dad said something that he didn’t say. It was a manipulation tactic. Not saying your Mom is lying because I don’t know of course. But she may be lying or exaggerating. Anyway at the end of the day you can’t make anyone else happy.
Yes as you stated you are calling too much. I would cut that down to once a day immediately and go from there.
Try to distract yourself with something else for awhile.
What are your interests? Meet up with your friends and enjoy time with others.
Plan activities with your husband. He’s been there for you throughout all of this. Now that you are reunited again, do some fun things together! Has he mentioned anything that he would like to do?
Surprise your husband with planning something special for the two of you to share. You’ll both benefit from not being preoccupied with thoughts of your parents.
Taking the first step is often the hardest. After that, you will grow accustomed to living life for yourselves instead of your parents.
Does your husband have this kind of relationship with his family? Or just with your family?
I have always taken this to mean a couple of things.
1. YOU have to give them the power to make you feel less than, or bad about yourself.
2. They have to have access to you, in order to make you feel bad in the first place.
This quote is not about the person doing the harm. It is about the person BEING harmed. It is about the person who is allowing themselves to be harmed.
You have been calling them every morning and late afternoon all of your life. You have given her access.
So what happens if you only call in the morning - or in the afternoon? Realistically? What happens? Are you worried that something will happen to them? Are you worried that she will be mad at you? What is at the heart of why you are troubled about missing one or the other call? Do you think if you don't call her that she will blow up your phone? I ask my SIL this all the time. What happens if you don't jump when FIL tells you to? He can't hurt you. He can yell - yes, but you can walk away. But there is power in words. And there is power in guilt.
But let me put it to you this way - the definition of insanity is to do what you have always done and to expect different results. I'm not trying to insult you, you know this. NOTHING is going to change unless you change something. You aren't going to get different results unless you do something to interrupt the status quo.
If she has regular access to you - she is going to continue the way she always has. There is zero reason for her to change. And your father is her enabler - because let's face it - it's easier for him - no shame in that. But let's talk about you. Is it just easier for you? I think up to this point- it has been. Because they have been mostly self-sufficient. You could go on vacations together and do fun things. But now that they are getting older and things are getting harder and they need more it's getting more difficult to manage. And that's only going to get more difficult.
The days of fun vacations are gone. I'm not trying to be mean - but they have invested money in your brother - and have depended on you for support. YOU ARE THEIR PLAN. How many months have you spent in the last year taking care of them. Nevermind paying their mortgage. You have said a couple of times you can't move them closer because it's cheaper for you to pay their mortgage where they live. I want you to rewind that and play it back. You can't move them closer because it would cost YOU more to pay THEIR mortgage.
And yet they didn't blink an eye as they gave your brother money hand over fist.
Here is the problem I see. Do they actually have any money of their own anymore? Or are they dependent on your to pay for everything - not just their mortgage? All this time we've been telling you to send them to an assisted living facility - or potentially even a nursing home. But now I'm concerned. They've given all of this money to your brother. How long ago was the last time? If they go to a nursing home, how long before they would run out of money to pay for it? Or would you have to pay for that too? Because if they had to depend on something like Medicaid to pay for it- and they've given your brother all of that money in say the last five years....dear God....the lookback period - I have no words.
Enjoy your dinner!
Even a good therapist to roleplay & look at new communication styles won't get anywhere if no-one wants to actually change.
Many people are happy with their super-close family relationships. If you are Max, well, own it!
All the advice in the world on how to unmesh is most probably useless for you.
So I'm changing my tune.
To options that may be more realistic for your situation.
A. Action. Find an AL. Either your town or theirs.
Find it. Arrange the funding. Move them in. Sell/rent our the condo.
*Make the changes*
B. Be their Maid. Wait for the next crises, birthday or whatever reason sends you back to the folks. Just stay. Make peace with it. They are late 80s/90 - may only live 6 months or 5 years more - so share that time together. You may need to leave your DH behind, this does happen. But it is an option that people do take.
*See it through to the end*
C. Check out. Disengage from any responsibility. Let them age in place as they wish. Wait until a crises forces them into hospital / a NH.
You stay home too, doing what you do, making your daily calls to them. It doesn't really matter where they land, right? You can still call morning & night.
*Let the world decide for you*
If you WANT to take action, but lack the skills/knowledge, seek out people to help you. There are agencies that specialise in finding ALs & elder law/financial services too. Find a Captain for this ship.
If you want to keep the peace & make no waves, do that.
But know choppy waters lie ahead. You have been warned.
I wish you all the very best with your choices, towards action or go with the flow.
Take care, Beatty.
* you have always been very close to your parents, especially your mother, as demonstrated by the fact that you have called her twice a day all your life
* you have a very bright and disturbed brother who has wrought unchecked emotional and financial destruction on your family
* you have spent holidays as well as long periods of time with them regularly all your adult life
* for the most part you have enjoyed this, though 1) it encroached on your life with your hub which you have come to resent and 2) it seems to be becoming a problem more and more as they have aged as they can't do as much and need more and more help
* you have felt trapped to some degree with these arrangements
* you didn't have friends your age, as a child and I suspect have few if any now. (When would you have time for friendships with spending so much time with your parents and talking to your mum?)
* although you love your mum you find it stressful to be with her at times as 1) she is too dependent on you and 2) being with her is being on an emotional roller coaster ride
* you are wanting to spend less time with them and be free to make plans for yourself and your hub.
* you have cancer and have had the initial treatments and are on an aromatase inhibitor for the next 5-10 years
* you are feeling the need to express yourself more and direct your own life rather than having your parents wants and needs direct it.
Am I close?
Tweak what I have written if I have left anything important out.
Then, addressing some of these points, list the changes you want to make.
Think about it, discuss with your husband and write them down.
I have made assumptions. It is good for you to clearly state how you want your life to be different from what it is now.
Be sure you know that you have not made your mother into what she is,
Her neediness is NOT your fault.
Your needs ARE your responsibility.
BTW Glad to hear you are making appointments with your doctors and you and hubs are researching care for your parents. Good for you both!
I think you used it correctly. Thank you! 😊
I am not very good at receiving compliments.
It helps your healing to be able to write a "healing narrative". This is the main events of your life written out with feelings attached to them. You have been writing out parts of it. I just put some of it together.
WE all fall into the listening category, which is helpful in the short term, but might be damaging in the long. IMHO. Ikdry, I think you nailed it.
This is all well and good, but I doubt it will do much.
Look at it this way Max you now really have the power and have for a while. Your parents need you more than you need them. You are now the adult and they are the children. Your parents need to understand that their lives are never going to be like they were. You have no control over their aging or health. You too have had a life changing experience that means you need to live your life differently. Things will never be the same. What you need to learn is how to be firm with your parents and honest. I have a feeling you never explained what you were going thru during your chemo. Actually, how did Mom take it when u told her u had cancer? They should know what chemo does to people. That the meds ur taking now may have side effects. I bet its always been about them and your needs and feelings are not so important.
I don't think things are going to happen overnight, little steps. Stop worrying about what may happen and deal with it when it happens. You need someone to give u those tools. That therapist is more important at this point than trying to find placement for Mom and Dad who will reject anything you try. That you need help with too and a therapist can help.
I want to point out to you that TWO longtime posters on this board, both your age, are either about to die or in terrible danger of dying from metastatic cancer and kidney disease.
We are none of us promised long life, even if our parents live/d to a ripe old age.
You can toss the dice and ignore the warning that your body has given you and continue to live to please your parents. Or you can take back a modicum of control and force your parents to seek support for their many health and social needs elsewhere.
This isn't going to be easy. By providing them with unquestioned financial support for many years, you have created an expectation that this will continue and that they bear no financial responsibility for their future. They are incredibly selfish to act this way, but you offered or they demanded, I don't know which.
Unless you are independently wealthy, you are going to need to make a financial plan with your husband and an attorney for sorting this all out.
Please remember that your dad's VA benefits need to be looked into. This may be a better option than Medicaid.
AND there needs to be a closer examination of mom and dad's current finances, i.e., does he get a pension in addition to SS? Does mom get SS?
I would also advise you to be prepared to call the authorities if your brother comes knocking on your or your parents' door.
First you need to decide if you want this dynamic to change.
Then you need to be willing to work on changing YOU and your reactions.
It's hard work. Good luck.
So, she should definitely start this process.
Her father should qualify and should he die before her mom. Her mom will receive the benefits.
When gaslighting starts early in life, it seems normal to the children. Many habits start in childhood.
There isn’t anything wrong with daily phone calls per se if both parties are enjoying the calls. When calls are nothing but constant complaints, it’s a problem. Especially if every suggestion is turned down.
Mothers shouldn’t expect their adult daughters to feel obligated to call home on a daily basis. Once a week is adequate. I don’t expect my daughters to call me daily. They lead busy lives.
Max isn’t required to call her mom as often as she does. It’s a long standing habit that needs to be broken.
We need to remove anything that becomes overly stressful in our lives. Internalized stress wears us down. Nothing is worth ruining our physical or emotional wellbeing.
I agree with JoAnn about not worrying so much. Cross those bridges when they happen. Chronically worrying is an awful way to live.
We wish you well, Max. Take one step at a time.