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Max, in case you haven't looked, Dorker's thread is YEARS long.

BUT as I said, she was able to "hear" what we were saying about
1. Boundaries
2. Saying "no".
3. Not caring so much about what her MIL, SIL and husband though about her behavior changes.

If you read her last post, her husband and SIL STILL talk about terribly sad it is that their mom ended up in "that place" (a good NH) because "no one" i.e. Dorker, was willing to sacrifice their sanity to make sure that entitled but impoverished MIL had EVERYTHING (including special dog treats, a particular dog groomer, homemade jello and saltless saltines) her heart desired.

Sonetime, ya gotta stand up to the insanity and say "basta".

Wishing you well.
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Its 5:45 EST where I live. One more night to go, unless you took our suggestion to get a hotel. Have everything ready so you and DH can leave first thing tomorrow. Do not lag. Treat Mom like a child going to first day at Daycare. Hug, kiss on cheek and walk out the door. You know what happens when you leave a child at daycare. Yes they cry, yes they holler for Mom. A worker redirects them and next thing u know, they are playing with the other kids. Mom will be alright. Dad is there, give the man some credit.
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It's 7.20 on the Eastern Seaboard, the time zone that Max is in.

Max, I hope you are either in a hotel room or getting ready to leave your parents ' home (that you pay for) post dinner awaiting your husband's arrival.

AND that tomorrow you drive home.

If that's not happening yet, you have some 'splaining to do and we will help you fix it.
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Max - you mentioned a while ago that you had had a very bad time with your brother who terrorized you. No one responded to that much. I know that has left you with some emotional scars. Your parents didn't deal well with him. Your family had and has very poor boundaries. This is what you learnt. I know what it is like to fear a family member. There were times, not that many, but there were some where because of mother's illness I feared for my life. You never forget that. I am sorry you have gone through so much trauma and stress. Counselling will help.

You are in my prayers to make good healthy decisions for you, which put you and your needs first.

Could you ever say to your mother - I need to go home and stay in my home for the foreseeable future. I need time with my husband - just the two of us. I need to see my doctor. I need to take care of myself...

Can you put your needs first?
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NeedHelpWithMom Jan 2023
Golden,

Oh yes, I can attest to this as well. I have horrible childhood memories of the crazy things that my oldest brother did.

Actually, it continued into my adulthood until I cut him out of my life.

I did take my mom to see him in the hospice facility before he died.

Unfortunately, he was a lost and troubled soul. I was relieved when he died because he was finally at peace.
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Good morning everyone, so excited I’ll be seeing my husband at around 4 pm today! After a screaming bout the other night about my mother’s obsession to put things away at 11 pm before the housekeepers come the following day, she seems ok-ish about me leaving and not returning for a few months. She still said why can’t my husband leave on Monday, I don’t think that’s nice! So we had to explain it all over again. Don’t worry, she’ll be upset later on today. I’m becoming stronger, with some guilt about my departure, but my husband is my “therapy”. When I return home, I’ll post about my life with my brother in more detail - it would really help me, especially that you had the same experience. Love you
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golden23 Jan 2023
Max - so happy for you to be excited about seeing your husband and getting away from the mama drama. You know how she is and that she will likely erupt again soon. She will always try to stretch your boundaries and that certainly is not nice She is not a mentally healthy woman and I would not be at all surprised if she had a personality disorder. Mother was not formally diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder until she was about 96 and then again at 100. Different hospital, same diagnosis. I had figured it out by reading about it some decades before that. She raged and raged and screamed like yours. Things had to be her way. She fussed about an ornament not being placed exactly right.. Everything had to be perfect. Part of her type of disorder is the inability to regulate emotions. Sounds like your mum. So she cried and raged and had tantrums. On the other hand she was extremely intelligent, a very good housekeeper, cook etc., was very well organized, managed her money well, was artistic - had many good qualities. It was hard to put together, and I knew she cared but I also knew I had to protect myself from her. Her "caring" could be suffocating.

You will be on your way with your husband soon, your mum will continue to have fits. I am not sure that she can do differently at this point. I was told after mother's diagnosis that at her age there was no point in treatment. So you just have to learn to deal with it so you are not harmed any more. That is the most important thing for you -to keep your self safe and away from stress as much as possible and doing things with your time and energy that are good for you and your hub. And it is possible to do that far more than you have been doing. Believe me, your mum will survive just fine without you being there so much.

Know my prayers are with you are you grow stronger and let go of the false guilt. I had friends who urged me in the right direction too and am so thankful for them and people on this forum who helped me and encouraged me through the very difficult last years of mother's life.

Again I am sorry for what you went through with your brother and look forward to your sharing it. It is healing to share our tough times. I am still learning about the effects my sister had on me and wondering why it took so long for me to realize what a destructive force she was in my life.

((((((hugs)))) and love to you, Max. 💗
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Once again, I can’t thank you enough for all of the support, patience and warmth you have given me. You are incredible❤️
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Kmjfree Jan 2023
That is great. So glad you will make it home soon.
Your post have made me think of the Wizard of Oz as you have been trying to get home and so many have helped but ultimately it was all up to you. So put on some ruby red shoes. There is truly no place like home.
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Max - I truly hope that are able to stand strong and return home with your husband this weekend. I want to give you the same advice that I have been giving my SIL for the last few years. And I really hope that you take it - because she hasn't. And while I know why she hasn't - I also know that I hate seeing the price that she is continuing to pay, and I also know that I can't force her to protect herself either.

BIL and SIL moved in with my FIL several years ago because they fell on hard times. It was supposed to be very temporary. He is nearly 90, He was in his early/mid 80s at the time. He was fairly independent - could do the vast majority of his ADLs no problem. SIL felt obligated to jump when he said how high because he gave them a roof over their heads (FIL is a raging narcissist and was horribly abusive in every way you can be to both SIL and my DH when they were growing up). Even still, they both love him and want his approval because - well he is a narcissist and he conditioned them to - but also because he is their dad and regardless of the fact that he's a terrible dad, he's the one they've got and they keep hoping that by some miracle, he will change some day. Sigh.

They moved in and almost immediately he started to go downhill. Stopped doing things for himself. I begged SIL to set boundaries. Stop bending over backwards to meet his every need. Anytime she did something once for him, it became her job. He literally told a doctor "Why should I do it myself when they can do it for me?" Within less than 18 months he had gone from 99% independent to 99% dependent. Mostly because she literally could not tell her father no. He had conditioned her to never say no. That it was disrespectful.

He is a 300lb man. He is now almost completely immobile. He can get between the bathroom and his bed but if we gave him a bedside toilet he would be thrilled. SIL drew the line because she would be in the floor passed out. But literally everything he needs she does. Cooks, cleans, medications, laundry. He now has a bath aide that comes 3X a week. She has now dedicated her life to taking care of him. That temporary situation? Yeah...she backed herself into a corner. We have been begging them to make an exit plan and go and we will help them find a place for him to live. He's in rehab right now. He's coming back home. We are glad he was able to recover from what put him there, but if DH and I had been given our way, he wouldn't have gone home, he would have gone to a Skilled Nursing Facility so they could be free.

I love my SIL but she is co-dependent. She is a product of the way she was raised. DH was raised to be the provider. She was raised to be the homemaker and the caregiver. Now inherently there is nothing wrong with the traditional roles. However, you have to factor in the narcissism. It was layered with a chauvinistic quality that FIL believes SIL is his indentured servant. She cannot walk away from him. She is indebted to him. And he has gotten inside of her head. She feels that way too. But she is also still trying to get his approval.

With all due respect to you. I feel like there may be a little bit of that dynamic between you and your mom. You love her, I know you do. But in some ways you are trying so hard to make her happy, to get her approval. Maybe I'm wrong. But sometimes we have to find that approval in ourselves. My FIL never gave his approval. Not once to DH or SIL. And that is why they still to this day are begging for it. And trying so hard to find even a glimmer of it. It is never going to be there because he just isn't capable of it. You talk about how your parents have spent years bailing your brother out and paying his way. And yet here you and your DH are paying THEIR mortgage and running yourselves ragged for them. Where does it end?

I get the sense that your mother is never going to be content until you are surgically attached to her side providing for all of her needs. When is it your turn?
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NeedHelpWithMom Jan 2023
How sad for your SIL. She will most likely leave when she is sick and tired of being sick and tired.
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Hopefully once you get home you wont be back until at least Thanksgiving. Just curious what your parents do all day since you told us they don't look 90 but do they act 90? Just wondering how much of a life outside of you they have.
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" Don’t worry, she’ll be upset later on today."

Yes max. You are becoming immune to her tantrums. Good.
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Wow! 221 answers. We are heading to a record here I think?
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AlvaDeer Jan 2023
I was honestly just after that 222. And look, now I have ruined it already.
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AlvaDeer once more nails it! There should have been only ONE response to this self-created dilemma, not 222…and that is:

”So long, farewell, auf wiedersehen, goodbye! I flit, I float, I fleetly flee, I FLY!”
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Beatty Jan 2023
Oh YES! The perfect line + a gorgeous visual... Gracefully dancing out in chiffon 😍
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Maxi, hoping you husband is rounding the bend as we speak.

You say mom is "not being nice"?

Are you STILL expecting her behavior to change?

It won't. Your mom is only interested in getting HER needs met. She doesn't care about what YOU need, despite what she might tell you.

Please keep putting your physical, emotional and financial needs first.

AND if mom or dad has an "emergency" tonight, please call 911 and continue with your plans to leave.
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Max, I trust your husband has arrived and that you are going out to dinner and checking into a hotel.

AND LEAVING in the AM.
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Hello to all, my savior has arrived! No I’m not at a hotel - that would be too complicated. Anyway, my mom was the sweet and selfless mom that she usually is, cooking, (well my Dad actually cooks the meal, mom chops etc. because she can’t stand long) for my husband one of her Italian meals. (I don’t cook at their place because my mom interferes too much). So something was said and she had to mention that I was nasty. She always has to say something! So I replied that’s because I can’t take you telling me what to do. So before she could answer, I changed the subject and asked Dad what are we having for desert - conversation over! Yippee! Then later on I said I’m going to miss you - big mistake- she replied no you’re not, but I’m going to miss you. I then said please don’t do that to me, and in turn she said I know you didn’t enjoy being with us this time. I then said well you’re absolutely right because I didn’t appreciate you yelling at me and then I didn’t give her a chance to respond and immediately walked away. How did I do? Better? Thanks again.
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Beatty Jan 2023
"conversation over!"

Hi-5 🤚

You CAN turn a conversation. You can hold your tongue. You can speak your mind.

You can click your heels & go home too. You didn't need a wizard afterall, you had the power this whole time, just didn't know it 👠👠
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Max - You did great! I know you have it in you to assert yourself, speak the truth and not get engaged in your mother's verbal nonsense. It is very important to be honest. That is healthy. I don't know if it was a mistake to say you would miss your mother. She will always find something to react to and it is good for you to speak your truth. You have to learn to deal with it. Or sometimes it may be better not to speak out like not waving a red flag in front of a bull. Up to you. You will work out what is most comfortable for you as you practice your new skills.

Changing the subject worked very well, as did walking away didn't it?

You must be feeling good about you and that is so important!
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Maximus13 Jan 2023
Hi Golden, last year we lost our 15 year old Papillon boy and I was extremely depressed. He was with me throughout my breast cancer ordeal and I’m pretty sure he detected it. I went to Florida soon after that and wasn’t ready to be away from home, even though my parents adored him. I was crying constantly and my mom and dad are not good at dealing with emotional issues. My husband and I had a discussion today in the car about how my parents can be so selfless and giving and then so self-centered at the same time. It’s mind boggling that they don’t realize this. Anyway, love you and goodnight❤️
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Max,

I am so happy that you are reunited with your husband! 😊
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Well-done, Max!

Keep it up, go home and start researching home health agencies in your parents' area.
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Good for you, Max. Now don't let your mother's behavior which you know is coming set back this huge step you've taken.
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Max, as I've read through this thread - I've been wondering something. There is a culture of Guilt. It's not in any one culture. It's no respecter of race, ethnicity, gender, etc. It just depends on the family you are raised in. But a lot of times you don't recognize you are in it. As I've gotten older, I've realized my grandmother is their QUEEN. And your posts are just dripping with it.

Your mother has you feeling as if YOU alone are keeping her alive. That if YOU walk away, she will surely perish. And that if you leave, it will be your fault if something happens to her. In addition to that - you mentioned that there are things that you and your husband won't be able to do because you have been funding THEIR mortgage (I'm not even sure how long). I will have to go back and read the post about your brother and everything they have done for him.

BUT....

You do realize that all you have been doing by funding their mortgage is indirectly funding your brother right?

All of this time your mother has been holding guilt over YOUR head, making you feel as if you can't do enough for her, you are paying their bills, you are running yourself ragged, you are spending so much time away from your husband, your husband is spending time running back and forth between your home and Florida....your BROTHER has been reaping the benefits. And they haven't blinked an eye at handing over money to him time and time again.

Has the situation ever been reversed? I know that they were wonderful loving parents. I'm not questioning that. And I'm sure that you know they would have helped you if you would have needed it. BUT, have YOU personally ever been in the position as an adult where you did need them and the tables were turned and they came to YOUR rescue? I am not trying to disparage them at all. I'm just wondering if you have always been the family savior your entire life?

I think sometimes we get into a certain role and feel like if we don't play that role that the entire dynamic will completely cave in. But the reality is that as long as YOU are the solution - they will never find another one. As long as you are willing to jump in the car and put your entire life on hold to come take care of them every single time they call - they won't hire a caregiver. And you will never get to enjoy just being their daughter.

Have you? Have you ever just been able to be their daughter? Or have you always been in this position of parenting your parents to some extent? Have you ever tried to say "Sorry mom, I just can't come this time. Here's the number of Visiting Angels, Home Instead, Care.com....they can send a caregiver out. Or the doctor can order rehab" Or do you feel like you would be so overwhelmed by guilt that you just wouldn't be able to do it?

Like I said, as long as you are their solution, they will never find another one. If you are ok with that, just disregard this message, but it doesn't seem like you are. But the only way that is going to change is if YOU change your behavior. They won't change theirs. It's too easy for them. NO is actually a complete sentence. But guilt is a strong motivator.

Once you and your husband are in the car (you CAN do this, don't let last minute emergencies stop you!) and you are away from the entire situation, I think you really need to give some thought to the next time. Because the next time is just around the corner. You know the phone is going to ring and you are going to be needed again soon. And you need to know what you are going to do. Because there is never going to be just a quick visit to spend some time with mom and dad for fun as long as you are the caregiver of choice.
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Its 11am EST so I so hope you got off bright and early.
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Hi Everyone it’s Max. I am trying to reset my password and I’m having trouble so I temporarily changed my User ID. I’m in a hotel in South Carolina. Mom said she misses me and loves me. She was not upset on the phone. It made me feel so good. I’m happy they are alone together, even though it’s probably quiet. My mom was sleeping when we left, so it was so easy to leave. I do love her, but she can be so annoying at times, and I know she feels the same way about me. The only difference is that I can admit that I have faults, she will never do that. Anyway, we’re back to our normal life with our dear puppy. Can’t wait to see my condo - my home! Thank you again for checking on me today! Max (I love ancient history) Named my other Papillon Lucius Maximus Senaca) My new puppy is Romeo.
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golden23 Jan 2023
Ah - you got back into the forum. Good! I answered you on your on your Max13 thread and am copying it back here for continuity!

Hi Max - thanks for the update. Glad you got away well. Enjoy your home. Make longer time between visits, less time with the parents. It gives them too a chance to develop their other relationships and interests and prepares them for your eventual retirement in Spain without them. It will lessen their focus on you. Keep lengthening the apron strings. Both you and your parents will be better off for that. Mother would never admit fault either - it was always someone else.

You have interesting names for your pets! I like ancient history too.
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Hi again, my Dad just called and said his hernia popped out and it’s the size of an orange. He’s going to the ER and my mom is alone. My husband just said we didn’t even get halfway home and we got this call. Unbelievable! I have no words right now!
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golden23 Jan 2023
Keep going to your own home, Max. Don't you dare turn back. They will manage!!! If your mum can't be alone then she needs to be in a facility. This is a big test for you. They need to find resources other than you that are close to home. Neighbours, housekeeper whoever - but not you! Your health can't carry that burden any more.
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Max, your parents are in their 90s.

Sooner or later, one of them will become seriously ill or will fall and a decision will need to be made about what level of care they need and where it will be delivered.

In many families, this situation occurs as a sudden crisis. Many times, an adult child swoops in and starts caregiving, trying to save the days and getting burned and and resentful in short order.

We have be trying to prepare you for this.

You need to have some answers ready--what rehabs are good. What home health agencies have good, reliable aides.

You need to start finding this stuff out NOW because the crisis is probably only a couple of weeks away and YOU need first and foremost to get back to your cancer treatment docs.

Your parents' lack of planning for their old age should not be reason for you to sacrifice your life and health.
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NeedHelpWithMom Jan 2023
I love what you said about becoming resentful. It’s the honest truth and certainly understandable. I must admit that this was true for me.

Yes, we want our parents to be well cared for but if we are at the stage of being resentful or burned out, we aren’t doing them or ourselves any favors. Parents deserve to have a caregiver that isn’t overly tired and we deserve to have proper rest.

In a way, it’s like any other job. If we wake up everyday and hate going to work, it’s time to find another job or if we are at retirement age, then we should retire and let another person take over.

It can be tough to let go, even knowing that it is necessary. Transitional times are difficult. It isn’t until we get away from it that we realize how irrational our thinking was. Long time caregiving changes us in negative ways.

Some of us even felt like no one else could do as good of a job as we can. Not true! Some of us felt like we were the only ones to get our parents to do something. Also not true! Sometimes they actually listen to others better than us.

Bottom line is that it doesn’t have to be ‘us’ doing all of the heavy lifting.

I received great advice from many on this forum when I was struggling.

I remember asking this forum what to expect from the caregivers who came to help mom with Council on Aging. The best advice that I heard was, “Allow them to do their job! Don’t work along beside them. Get out of the house. Take a break!” I listened and it was wonderful to have that break.
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"When you fail to plan, you plan to fail".

Max, please try to separate the idea that you love your mom from the idea (which seems connected to you) that you must show up on demand for her medical crises.

For my family, things started going downhill when mom was 88. Dad had been dead for 16 years but mom was managing fine...until she wasn't.

We simply couldn't drop everything (jobs, mortgage payments) to rush to her side with increasing frequency. We moved her into an Independent Living Facility where there was staff around 24/7 and that worked for 2 years.

Mom had a stroke and it was pretty clear that she needed to be in a NH and that she needed to be very close to one of us. We did the research and the best option was moving her 10 minutes from one brother. It made for more travel for the other 2 of us, but it made sense for SOMEONE to be able to get to the hospital quickly in an emergency.

No parent should expect their adult child to be their only source of care. It's selfish. Similarly, no adult child should expect to be supported by their elderly parents.

Since both situations exist in your family, I'm going to suggest again that you START by finding a therapist who can help you set some realistic boundaries with tour family so that YOUR life and health don't get destroyed.

Again, this is not about how much or whether you love mom and dad. And remember that no reasonable person should say "if you love me you would.... ".

That's manipulation, pure and simple.
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Hernia. But could have been anything... a dire fall, a sudden cough, a spilled coffee..

Take over this looming train wreck & drive safely.
Stay on the train as it de-rails.
Get off the train & alert others.

What's the decision?
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Oh, no, Max, I bet you turned around and headed back to your parents. And there you will stay, wishing and hoping for your next chance to get away. Will it be yet another 2+ months before you can plan to go home? And then when you do make plans, there will suddenly be another crisis and you won't leave? Will this be your life until both your parents are gone?

Or...did you keep on going back to your home and make a stand against their unrealistic and unfair expectations of you?
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The one thing that can be guaranteed with 2 90+ year old parents?

Medical emergencies of various levels of "need" will happen with increasing frequency.

There needs to be a plan for dealing with these.

The plan needs to take financial constraints into account.

It needs to be based on facts, not emotions, guilt, panic and manipulative behavior.

Just some food for thought, Max.

Wishing you well.
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Hothouseflower Jan 2023
I’m in the trenches with two 94 year olds who chose not to have a plan and just wanted to die in their home. They shot down every suggestion or attempt I made to help them put their affairs in order. My actions were viewed suspiciously and I was the recipient of my mothers verbal vomit last time I made a suggestion. The chickens have come home to roost and I’m in the basement, tempted to to get up, close the door and leave without saying a damn thing. I am beyond livid. I want to be a decent daughter but they have made it impossible. These last years will forever taint my memory of them.

Max, please take note of this. Make sure your parents have a plan.
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Oh my gosh, this is deja vu for me! In particular, hearing Barb’s words, for which I am eternally grateful.

I remember debating with her about, ‘how much I loved my mom.’ Barb didn’t miss a beat by telling me that my love for my mother had nothing to do with my irrational behavior.

No one had ever explained this to me like that before. Her words clicked in my ‘dense’ head! I had suddenly realized that I equated service with love. I had no idea that they were separate issues. I believed that there couldn’t be ‘love’ without my service.

I was totally wrong about so many things. My responsibility was to oversee that my mom was cared for. Sadly, I felt that I was being neglectful and passing the buck if I wasn’t doing the hands on care myself. It was such a relief to finally understand the truth!

It’s painful to remember these things but they are true. I don’t know if Barb and others remember how terribly confused that I was like I do. I’m certainly glad that no one gave up on me. I was delusional and lost.

Barb explained FOG, fear, obligation and guilt. I didn’t know about this either. Let’s just say that I desperately needed to be enlightened!

We can empathize with our parents being afraid. Everyone is afraid when faced with health issues. The problem arises when the only thing that we have shown them is that we are ‘always’ going to be there to take care of everything at the cost of neglecting ourselves. That’s on us!

All is not lost though, as hard as it is emotionally for some of us, we can turn things around to find a proper balance in our lives. It’s the best thing for everyone, the parents and children.
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Beatty Jan 2023
Need, I am watching this now. The 'love' one family member has is deep. I picture it like a triple stacked colourful licorice allsort lolly: layers stuck together: love, service, fix (keep the peace/keep other's happy). Deeply encased in FOG too.

Both love & saying no/change doesn't seem to co-exist for them.

I am researching today (again) where the line is, between freedom of choice & self-neglect.
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I would also like to say that if someone has been a long time caregiver, please be kind to them.

It was the firm, yet still compassionate postings that I responded most to. I completely shut down when I saw insensitive, harsh comments.

Long time caregivers are broken and the very last thing that they need, even if done with good intentions, is to be beaten up by others in a caregiver support group.

It’s extremely difficult to break free of FOG. We need time to process the information given. We need encouragement, which is NOT the same as coddling.

Feeling empowered is what makes it possible to take on the necessary steps to make forward. I love to see others telling a poster that they ‘can’ do this one step at a time.

Let me give an example of something. I have never been overweight. I am naturally thin and have been extremely active during my lifetime.

I try very hard to empathize with people who struggle with their weight. Everyone has their own specific metabolism.

People tell me, “You don’t know what it’s like to be overweight. You have always been stick thin.” They are correct, I don’t know what it’s like.

Some people eat when stressed, others like me, aren’t big eaters to begin with and cannot eat when stressed. It makes me nauseous if I try to eat if I am upset. My appetite goes away. Some people gain weight during caregiving. I lost weight that I couldn’t afford to lose.

Perhaps I felt like I couldn’t control certain things in my life but the one thing that I could control was food, so I rebelled by not eating. Who knows? Eating disorders weren’t discussed when I was young.

But, I do try to be very understanding of people who eat to find comfort. I don’t call them pigs or other derogatory things.

So, if you haven’t struggled with feeling like you had to do the hands on caregiving, then good for you! But please be aware that not everyone is the same. Some of us take longer to catch up to speed.

Look at the person who developed 409 cleaner. Do you know why that is the name of the product? It’s because he failed 408 times. He succeeded on the 409th try and that is what is most important.

Please note that I am not ragging on anyone for their contributions to this forum. I have slipped as well, after moving forward and at times I have also been impatient with others.

I work hard at catching my negative behavior and bite my tongue so I won’t be offensive and counter productive. I prefer to offer firm but compassionate advice.
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sp19690 Jan 2023
What an excellent post.
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Y'all have an update from Max down in discussions, so be certain to see it.
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sp19690 Jan 2023
But no update if she turned around and went back to parents place or continued back home.
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