My elderly father has fallen prey to several scams but still has his wits about him in terms of functioning. There are no obvious signs of dementia as of current, but he seems to communicate with scammers too often and it puts his safety at risk and the safety of those around him at risk.
He fell in mid-October at his home and laid on the bathroom floor for a few days prior to being discovered. When he was discovered, he was immediately transported to the hospital. He was disoriented the first few days in the hospital. Hospital staff encouraged me to apply for guardianship due to scammers finically exploiting him. So, I applied at the county courthouse.
At first, I thought I alone would be capable of being the guardian. But then I realized my dad never listens to a word I say to keep himself out of danger. So, I bought this to the attention of social workers at the hospital. The social workers told me at the time that they recommended a co-guardian, and they would have several co-guardian candidates contact me. I would be able to vet them and determine who I felt could best perform the duties.
Instead of the several potential co-guardian's calling me I had only one potential co-guardian call me just a few days prior to the guardianship hearing. I did not have much time to vet her, and she ultimately ended up a co-guardian with me once the judge made a ruling on guardianship.
Once she was appointed co-guardian, she was insistent on selling my dad's house despite not even reviewing his finances yet. She verbally noted that she wants to take away his phone.
I did not necessarily agree with her strategy, but she is insistent. I have attempted to get in contact with attorneys to discuss other options but once attorneys in the county she is in learn of her involvement they want no part of talking to me. I have reached out to other attorneys in proximate counties. They either are not interested or are not willing to work in the county where the court is. As for legal advice I feel like I have reached the end of my rope.
He is currently in a nursing home for rehabilitation. I spoke with a social worker and discharge coordinator at the nursing home yesterday. They suggested the co-guardian was derelict since my dad would be released from the nursing home soon and she had no plan for him to go elsewhere. More specifically, an assisted living facility since his home is currently a mess due to the accident (i.e. the fall).
I was finally able to reach the co-guardian via phone. She stated she’s on vacation at the end of this week and I would have to help find my dad and put him in an assisted living facility myself. But I have no experience doing this nor am I comfortable in explaining to him how to get into the facility. He is obviously very resistive to the idea. The co-guardian is telling me to find the facility and take him there and not to explain anything to him except that this is the next step in the process.
So, in summary I cannot find legal help and I am not getting a lot of help from the co-guardian who’s supposedly more experienced. I don’t disagree that my dad may need to be in assisted living, but I don’t want my dad to think this is permanent. Selling his house may give him this idea. I also don’t want to be cold by telling him that “this is the next step” and limit communication between him and the outside world by removing his phone.
I got my Mom a RAZ Mobility phone after her flipphone broke and she was making inappropriate calls. From an app on my phone, I control who can call her (her grandkids, her family, certain stores, neighbors and friends) so, no scammers can get to her. The phone uses large photos of the people who she can call and I can control what hours of the day she can call them. She was able to learn how to use this new phone, but not sure your Dad will be able to. You won't know until you try it.
I'm not sure what you thought a co-guardian would add to the situation. She seems to now just add a layer of complexity. She's not going to be your go-fer to do your guardian work for you.
I think I would see if I could get rid of the co-guardian arrangement but then you are "it" in terms of problem solving. This forum has lots and lots of info to help in that area.
The likelihood that your Dad will fall again is now higher. He is also continuing to lose his executive functioning (and this is why he falls victim to scamming). I'm assuming he had to take an extensive cognitive test to assess the level of his impairment for guardianship. This should give you a good idea why having him live on his own is really not going to be safe for him going forward. With cognitive decline/memory impairment he no longer is able to make good judgments about his wellbeing. Dementia also causes people to lose their ability to have empathy for others, so he won't care that he's running his guardians around ragged trying to appease his now unreasonable expectations.
Assisted living would at least give him social exposure and opportunities for activities. He may actually be a candidate for MC, so please ponder this. No one ever likes the thought of this type of drastic change, but it's necessary to keep our LOs safe when they are a danger to themselves.
That is, to be honest, impossible.
I think there is here a basic lack of understanding because what I think has happened is that a court appointed Fiduciary is currently acting as guardian because, perhaps, you had a poor idea of how to function as guardian.
I do not know nor have ever in a long career heard of anything like a "co guardian" in the manner to which you describe.
Nor have I ever heard of an attorney paid refusing to see someone because there is a "co-guardian".
Really sorry, but your story isn't making sense to me.
What IS clear is that your father currently has a court appointed guardian.
SO...........................
1. When the nursing rehab center calls you you should tell them the guardian's number. Tell them that they must work out discharge plans with the guardian, and if they feel there is 24/7 care needed that they should discuss this with the court appointed guardian.
2. If your father is discharged unsafe to function you should FIRST call the guardian and tell her he isn't safe. If she's not responsive, call an ambulance for transport to hospitial. If they will not transport, call APS to report as "Emergency Senior at Risk and guardian not responding". If they are non-responsive call the police.
Good luck.
Again,
I have never heard of a "co guardian" appointed by a court.
I have never heard of an attorney who will not see you when you are willing to
pay for his or her time.
Something is missing here; I cannot fathom what that missing piece/pieces might be.
By the way, given your father now likely has a diagnosis of dementia (which you do not mention) as you cannot have ANY guardian without that; courts do not rip a citizen's rights from him unless he cannot operate for himself--I AGREE the home should be sold and the funds should go for your father's care. That is up to the court-appointed guardian to decide. And in absence, given vacation, she should notify the rehab when she will return to place your dad. Meanwhile he will likely become private pay, which is costly to be certain.
As you can imagine, filing again a court appointed guardian is going to be very costly, almost impossible. And I do not know the reasons there IS a court appointed guardian. Only the court knows that.
Given I have to way to know what the situation here is legally, that's sadly the best I have to offer in terms of suggestions.
I described above that the woman was appointed a co-guardian aside me. She was appointed by the court; so, you never having heard of it is a moot point here. As I describe above, I lack knowledge on how guardianship works so the idea behind having a co-guardian is to gain direction from a person who is supposedly skilled and has experience doing this.
I just spent about an hour online researching "co-guardianship". It's quite unusual and was fascinating to me. Plus I admit to avoiding election day in general.
From every single thing I can find it is best for the two in these very unusual circumstances, especially when one is court appointed, to come to agreement.
BUT, if they cannot come to agreement there is one and only one way to address it.
THAT'S the COURT.
When agreement is NOT reached it is a simple matter of the guardians taking it to court. Filing and waiting and filing and waiting and filing and waiting. What an education!
And after all of that: the court will make the decision.
Unless you want this to be ongoing and to spend most of your time in the courts filing actions (you will learn lots about the law for sure), I would suggest trying really hard to come to some agreements here. The court Fiduciary is gonna be WAY ahead of you in how to do all this.
What you have, when you think about it, is kind of a war of two parents over a minor child after a divorce.
You can spend all your time and money in court, or you can come to an agreement about what seems best for poor dad.
Good luck.
New York State has co-guardianship law:
Co-guardianship
A guardianship relationship where two guardians are appointed to have full decision-making power over certain areas of the ward's life.
Court appointment
A judge will appoint a guardian if they decide it's in the ward's best interest. The court will decide whether to give the guardians independent authority or joint authority.
Guardian's authority
The guardian will receive a court order that outlines their responsibilities and authority.
Bonding and training
In some cases, the guardian may need to obtain a bond to ensure the proper management of the ward's assets. Non-professional guardians must complete a training program.
The co-guardian is correct that you just find a facility for Dad and place him. Its no longer what Dad wants but what he needs. And since this will be permanent, you sell his house to help pay for his care. If your were given Guardisnship its because Dad is not capable of making informed decisions. You now make those decisions for him. The roles are now reversed. You just do what you need to do. Thats how I got thru caring for my Mom. If anything got done its because I made the decision to just do it. Yes, take the phone away. If you chose to keep it, change his number. Get a programable one where you can putvin the calls allowed to come in, and the ones he can use going out. Have his credit frozen. Make the bank aware of these scams and not to allow any large amounts goingbout of Dad's accounts.
If you are placing Dad into a memory care or Assisted living, if paying privately you should have no oroblem finding one. LTC too, private pay opens up a room quicker than trying to get a Medicaid bed.
What the court is telling you is that if you choose not to be guardian and the court decides that mom is incompetent then either you can appoint or the courts will do it. Those people who are contacting you most likely were vetted by the courts. You can also find professionals in your location who do this as well. The only difference, if you choose not to do it is that her spend down will be quicker because you are paying professional fees.
Be aware that the court will also have you meet with a guardian ad litem who ususally is another lawyer appointed to the case and will also charge fees.
On the down side, if you continue to do nothing you will eventually have to deal with an indegent parent.
Perhaps what you wanted was a co-guardian who could and would carry out your own ideas - they could call the shots with your father because he “never listens to a word I say”. You also want flexibility to change your ideas in future. You “don’t want my dad to think AL is permanent. Selling his house may give him this idea”. !!! It usually is permanent! In fact your own 'flexible' approach is not 'normal'. Finding attorneys to question all of this is not the way it is supposed to work.
I’m sure that things are not working out well for you with this ‘co-guardian’, but it’s easy to see that it’s a tricky job for her. It might help if you try a counseling session for yourself, to clarify your own ideas. Then you could at least try to get your relationship with her on a more understood basis.
I don't know if this is doable, but perhaps Thomas can tell the court he did not receive names of any co-guardians to vet other than this one, and this one is not satisfactory: he should be specific. That the co-guardian advises selling the home when the father does not have a diagnosis of any cognitive impairment does not make sense! While there are problems, first you clarify hw situation before you fix it! Thomas should arrange for his father to have neuropsychological testing as soon as possible.
"Division of responsibilities:
The court can specify how responsibilities will be divided between the co-guardians, such as one managing finances and the other handling medical decisions."
Perhaps the best solution is for a judge to clarify what roles each of you will play. You may not like this but it is a solution to your situation.
I can not imagine why anyone would suggest such a thing, unless they found you not suited to the task.
I don't understand why you can't find legal help. Find an elder law attorney.
Or just start calling attorneys in your area. Do you have any other family members who could or would help? It sounds from what you have explained that you are totally unsure what to do. You need help. But I doubt an assigned co-guardian who doesn't know your dad is the person to help in this matter.
This is your opportunity to do research and step up and "take charge" of matters to the best of your ability. Most of us haven't prepared for what to do when something like this happens in our life. It's a quick learning process! And you may make mistakes along the way, but all you need to do is keep focused on your dad's best interests and make the best decisions you can in the moment.
You can make different decisions later as needed.
It may not be a good idea to assume that both the court and the co-guardian have got things wrong. OP, please don't accuse the co-guardian or her husband of being a potential scammer. It's defamatory.
I’m confused.
to which they didn’t know about!
My sister and I were perfectly capable of handling her small affairs. Mom lived with me 9 months.
My first post suggested "It might help if you try a counseling session for yourself, to clarify your own ideas". Perhaps a long term lack of confidence resulting from "my dad never listens to a word I say"?
Ask for a hearing with the Judge or find out the process.
If you are 'co-guardians,' do not allow her to be 'insistent' - you need to be clear on what you want and how you want to work with a co-guardian. Do not be intimidated (easy to say, not so easy to be).
Since you are 'co-guardians,' I presume that she cannot unilaterally make decisions. Is this true?
* I am not sure if the nursing home can legally release your dad if he doesn't have a place to go to. Ask them. If I were you, I would hire an attorney specializing in elder law ASAP.
Taking his phone away or limiting his access sounds very reasonable to me since he is vulnerable and a target for scammers. I would have suggested something be done to avaoid his contact w potential scammers.
- He shouldn't be able to answer the phone or use the computer - wherein her can access / communicate with scammers.
It isn't a matter if '... I also don't want to be cold by telling him ..." you DO what is needed for his best interest. Period. You need to realize (and quickly) that you must take control of the situation and do what is necessary for his welfare.
It sounds like you are allowing your dad and this co-guardian to make decisions - that you are intimated by both of them. Perhaps you are.
And, as another suggested, get a therapist to figure out what you want to do and how to go about doing it. But, you currently don't have much time to be 'in therapy' - you have to make decisions now about your dad's welfare. Therapy is helpful although life-long triggers takes time to process / work through.
None of this is easy. When you have life-long family triggers, they often come out at his time in a loved-one's life (a parent). And, of course, they could come over over the duration of your life. But now ... you HAVE to step up and do what is necessary for his benefit.
Perhaps talk to this person 'more.'
Or if you feel it is needed, find out with the court and/or an attorney how to get her removed. Then decide what / how you 'co-guardian' with another person.
Gena / Touch Matters
I would also suggest that for the immediate future, you pay some people to clean up your father's home: do that before you send him anywhere. This will be much easier than moving him right away, Contact some home care agencies where your father lives, and do what is needed to arrange for him to have 24/7 care when he is sent home. Sending him home should be allowed under these circumstances. Don't worry about the co-guardian for now, since she has told you to take care of things! My suggestion is not the least expensive thing to do, but it burns the fewest bridges and will cause the least disruption for your father. BTW, your father should be paying the cost of his home care, not you! Whatever agencies you select will want to interview him first, which they can do while he is still in rehab. They may want to interview you, also, especially if there is an immediate question of payment,
With that taken care of, you can start dealing with the other issues. Your father needs cognitive testing ASAP; you may be able to have it done while he is in rehab. Medicare covers this cost annually. With that info, you can explore alternative living situations for him more calmly and less hurriedly. A change in one's living situation should not be decided upon overnight if it is not necessary--and it is not necessary here.!
I have written elsewhere in these answers my suggestion that you find out what you can do to vet co-guardians as you were told; this one is not working out, and she is not thoughtful nor responsible--AND you were not given the vetting opportunity you were promised. I understand this will not be easy since a co-guardian has been assigned, but it may be double. Keep a record of all her actions an suggestions. Again, you can ask the attorney about the procedure without his/her taking action himself/herself.
I've been around the elder care industry for a LONG time my friend and have seen this sort of thing. It's a scam in of itself. These people make their living as professional guardians. Their main objective is to get a senior's assets liquidated and get them placed in a care facility. The reason for this is because they are in business with certain residential care facilties who kick back some to them.
Let me tell you something. Call the co-guardian and leave her a message that you're planning to hire private-pay, live-in homecare for your father. Guaranteed she will call you back right quick because that means her gravy train may be stopped.
It's not overly hard to find an AL facility for your father if that's what you want to do. Most AL's now won't even consider a person unless they can pay usually a year or two in cash. So, the 'co-guardian' has to go. Petition the court.
She is right about taking away your father's phone. He should not be allowed unsupervised phone or internet access anymore. You say there are no obvious signs of dementia. An elderly person who gets scammed regularly is an obvious sign of dementia.
There are other choices for your father that are not putting him in AL. Like getting live-in help so he can stay in his home. It's your choice as to whether or not there will be a homecare agency involved or private hiring.
Talk to your state's Agency on Aging and have a consultation with an elder law attorney. The first meeting is usually free.
”Another fine mess.” Hugs 🤗
https://abc7ny.com/amp/investigation-adult-guardianship-law/12712558/
The problem is that you haven't stepped up to the plate of making the decisions yourself. If you can stop wanting 'help' to do what family members normally have to do themselves, you DON"T need a co-guardian. Just take some responsibility! You aren't looking for a perfect answer, just what seems the best option so far as you know.