My mom keeps passing the memory tests and refuses (angrily) to allow me to go to the Dr with her. Any tips?

Do you have Power of Attorney for Medical on your Mother? If not you really can't intervene.

I am curious, besides driving, what things does your mother do that makes her independent? Can she use a phone? Can she call someone? Can she talk on the phone? Get herself dressed? Get something to eat? What does she like and not like? Does she pick out her clothes?In what ways is she independent now. Possibly your mother is terrified of being placed in AL or a skilled nursing. Possibly hiring a friend to play cards or take her to a movie. A friend that may gain her confidence for future needs. Prayers for the journey.

Has your mother had a cognitive evaluation by a geriatric psychiatrist or a neuropsychologist? Have you spoken to or received any input from her primary care physician? If there have been issues related to driving, I would suggest speaking with her physician so that he can submit a driver's license revocation form to the state. I would also suggest that she gets her affairs in order: last will and testament, advance directives, funeral plans, etc. If she needs everything that you state, your best bet is involving someone that she respects and will listen to.

Remote: Your sister feels as though mom will be lost without her indepedence? But if she ceases to operate a motor vehicle, she'll still be alive. And what about the Medicare cognitive test? Has she had one?

Family may know a lot more about LO's "baseline"; however, family often overreacts when they realize there is a cognitive problem, even a minor one! _Any_ decline does not mean our LO is incompetent and needs a constant oversight and loss of privacy or even needs to immediately stop driving.

Our system (which I generally agree with) is that until there is significant decline in executive function or orientation a person is still competent.

I have stated in other posts I wish our legal system had a in-between state for MCI where people remain competent but must designate some other competent adult to "co-sign" major decisions (like rewriting a will, re-deeding or selling a house, giving away large sums of money and yes, renewing a driver's license) confirming these decisions/changes are in the principal's best interest. I do not think the co-signer should be a child or any other family with a potential conflict of interest.

I wish the many commentators who post about HIPPA problems could have experienced my estranged brother verbally and emotionally badgering my mother about her short term memory problems were really ALZ and how she needed to "mind" him because her brain was garbage and her thoughts and opinions about her life and running her house didn't matter. This was 8 years before she scored a 27 of 30 on the mini eval! Or course estranged brother also told our mother when she had no cognitive problems of any type (and wouldn't for another 16 years) she had dementia; our father had dementia and she was about the same age so she was bound to have it too! If you think every child should be able to invade their parents' privacy, please consider how you would feel having your worst enemy go through your medical records. Yes, HIPPA can be a pain for the good kids who want to help a parent, but please consider how destructive some of the information can be in the hands of someone with problems who doesn't really care about the parent - maybe the child with a drug problem or the child with mental issues of their own?

I do agree that guardianship, any oversight, revoking of license, etc. shouldn't be a snap to get, but sometimes the "guidelines" and flaming hoops one must go through are too stringent and the person who truly needs help doesn't get it. Sometimes it can be too late.

The original post is fairly short, and doesn't provide a lot of detail. OP gave a little more insight in a response post today. I have three things to say about this: 1) doctors often only see a person once, maybe twice a year and that visit is so minimal there is NO way for them to determine if there is an issue and 2) we as family see a person more often and can see the progression more clearly and 3) the simple test, if even done, can be misleading. If we have no POA/HIPPA, the doctors should at the very least take input from family and DO some additional testing!

Too often someone who has early stage dementia can pass off being fine. Sure, don't jump the gun, but DO more exploring of the issues observed, even if only by family. Even family members can be duped, if they don't see the person very often and only for short visits. It could also be some other medical condition causing the symptoms. Thorough testing/input from family is NEEDED.

Comment about repeating stories - sure, many of us do this, myself included. That alone isn't enough, but when OP says "...repeats herself constantly.", flags go up. THIS is what clued me in for my mother. When someone repeats the same statements, questions, requests over and over in a matter of minutes, SOMETHING is wrong and should be checked. There are other signs, some of which I missed because it was prior to the light going on for me (accusing others of stealing items was one - WHO would steal tweezers????) Without the later observations, this made no sense to me (lack of knowledge about the signs, esp the subtle ones.) Did we immediately jump to remove her? No. We tried various ways to keep her in her condo, but it wasn't going to work. We DID take her car away (it was NECESSARY, before she killed herself or someone else!)

Forgive me if I missed it, but I didn't see anything about the doctor not agreeing with impairment, however even if it is posted in this thread, doctors don't always get it. Some have posted elsewhere that doctors ignore input, one said the doctor stated the person couldn't have dementia as nice people don't get this!! Without my input, the doctor mom had at the time would NOT have a clue. Even then, he promised the letter I needed to take over her federal pension, but never delivered (9 months of pestering the office was useless!)

That said, if WE (mostly ME) hadn't been aware and proactive, mom could have been dead by now. We finally got Dx from a nurse from the aide company who tested her. We implemented a timed/locked medication dispenser and started 1 hour aide visits. Less than 2 months she refused to let them in. We started looking for a place, but she refused to consider ANYTHING (AL, brothers offers.) JUST prior to the move, she injured her leg and developed cellulitis. We are all "remote" enough that we couldn't do daily checks on her other than by phone. She didn't have enough sense to have it looked at or even tell us. Her neighbor told me. Lucky for her it was just before the move and OB was arriving the next day. THAT could have killed her quickly.

"People pass cognitive tests because they retain enough function to be orientated to their environment and execute basic tasks"
SOME can pass those simple tests when in early stages, because it isn't that hard. Mom's current doc attempted this test on her despite being 2+ years in MC, and being hard of hearing (hearing aid went through laundry, hadn't had time to get replacement.) She couldn't even finish it. The same test was given to me several months later at my checkup. Thankfully I passed!

Driving and summary TBD posted to this comment.

This thread is a wonderful example of why the guardianship process is and needs to be so difficult to obtain. Based on _one_ person's statement that an 73 year old adult's memory is impaired (because she uses limited subjects and repeats stories over a phone call) so the senior therefore needs a care giver, and a companion to her doctor's appointments and to stop driving, even when considering the person making the statement is REMOTE and the senior's doctor does not agree she is significantly impaired... look how many people are willing to jump on the band wagon and deny this legally competent person rights to self determination, privacy and her own property. Is this "one person says" the standard you want applied to yourself today or in a few years?

People pass cognitive tests because they retain enough function to be orientated to their environment and execute basic tasks; they may not be as "sharp" as they were previously but that is not the standard. Competency does not require you do not age or have declines; the standard is whether the cumulative declines have reach a point where you cannot function safely. I recently went through a series of cognitive tests for my own baseline since both parents have cognitive issues and found out my IQ has dropped 3 points since I took the same standard test 40 years ago. I can still correctly solve mathematical problems but lost some points for requiring a few more seconds now than when I was 16. People pass driving tests because they retain at least the basic skill level required before DLs are issued. Reaction time is not a critical driving skill; if it was teenagers would be the safest drivers instead of the most unsafe on the road! My mother, years into her short term memory problems and after a complete neurological examination and initial MCI diagnosis was a very safe driver, using good judgement to pick her routes carefully and using red lights for left turns. My father was an unsafe driver before his vascular dementia diagnosis: speeding, changing lanes without signaling and with very small clearance margins and turning out in front of other vehicles - much like the behavior or driving style of many a teenager. Dad could pass a driving test as easily as a teen too. Even though I considered him unsafe because of his judgement difficulties and not his driving skills, I did not take the car (and had no right to do so) until he was deemed incompetent and I became his guardian. I was able to get him to restrict his driving to daylight hours around his home, but he would not agree to stop completely.

Maybe senior parents would not be so "resistant" to offers of "help" if the children were actually "offering" cooperative help and not just wanting to substitute their own judgement for their parents' at the first sign of an aging decline. In most cases the testing performed in a doctor's office is a better measure of competence than the lay person's educated guess or opinion. Writing a letter and providing a doctor with more information allows the doctor to better determine which tests to perform.

If I had been tested multiple times and cleared repeatedly by my doctor, I think I would a bit "angry" with a child who continues to insist she knows better than the doctor and wants to start making _my_ decisions for me.

Talk to the Doctor or aNurse on the phone. Explain your situation. She probably has some demmtia. The doctor wil let he rknow when she needs help and perhaps tey can converse with you as to how each appointment went. You are aconcerned family member, After all.

You live out of town; are you RNs or Docs? I would be angry as well if the doc says I'm good but my daughters kept insisting that I wasn't. Is she a danger to herself or others and how? Has she been in car accidents recently or dented the car? I bet I could find some memory issues with you. I always play devil's advocate. If you're serious go to court to have her declared incompetent. File for guardianship first then get a doctor to declare her legally incompetent. After he has decided she is legally incompetent you go to court to make it official. Simply having a doctor say she's incompetent isn't good enough...she has rights. This taking her for ice-cream and going to the home is barbaric. What comes around goes around. I know of no home/facility/etc that would accept a new patient like that...the psych ward would take her as an involuntary admit but she would have to garner the attention with bad behavior.

Her physician should be calling her in for her routine ANNUAL Medicare wellness exam. No one likes to lose their independence, but at this stage, she probably shouldn't be operating a motor vehicle.

She needs a good physical but also a good cognitive test. As noted, there are conditions which can affect memory. Repetition was the first clear sign I had for our mother. Later, adding in other odd behavior, which was dismissed at the time, there were some little bells ringing. I knew nothing about dementia until I noted the repetition and started research.

When you say you live out of town, how far out? Your profile shows St Thomas, so is mom on the island or back in the states? If the latter, this could be difficult. If you don't already have any POAs or HIPPAs signed by mom, that could be a problem. Doctor could and should take input from family members, but it doesn't always play out well, esp if you can't be there to back it up.

Bringing up hot topics like driving will definitely get the dander up. It and other topics can bring on anger, belligerence, denials, shutting you out, so it has to be done carefully. It would be best if the doctor can be the initial bad guy. If s/he does broach this subject and from testing determines it isn't safe, s/he should be able to start the revoking process, but beware - many who are told not to drive and/or have a license revoked often ignore it and continue to drive! IF you get doctor to revoke and get notice from DMV that it is suspended or revoked, you will need to step in quickly to move the car. You won't necessarily be able to sell it, even with a POA (the document, if you have one, will specify what you can do and when), but to get it where she can't access it will be key.

There could be anger, threats, tears, any number of reactions, but you have to stand strong. If she is still capable, she could try to fight it or get around it (ask ExhaustedPiper about that!) She sounds like she might be in the early stages of dementia, and quite often people at this stage can surprise you with what they can pull off! It will also probably be the most difficult stage, when dealing with the car and other "privileges."

Wishing you lots of luck and strong backbone! It wasn't too hard with our mother, but it also wasn't pleasant! Thankfully we're beyond all that (car, making the move, etc.)

With HEPPA you either have to get Power of Attorney or she gets the right to keep her medical records and appointments private even from you. That's her right. I don't think doctors are as apt to recommend that the person have that right taken away unless they are truly, truly not capable of making their own choices.

One other thing....her doctor should ask her if she's still driving. My mom said she felt uncomfortable doing so. So he said he would feel better if she does not drive. I found that if I left moms car key on her key ring, it put her at ease. We left her car in the parking lot at the AL so she could see it, but we disabled it in case she tried to drive. Eventually it got easier because she forgot about it and knew she couldn't drive due to being in a wheel chair because of severe arthritis. It's so hard...but white lies to put them at ease are well worth it. Again, good luck to you.

Those memory tests totally embarrassed my mom. She asked why are they doing this to her. It was quite obvious at her appointments that she was repeating herself. I saw no reason to add to her confusion...she would feel terrible and then forget anyway. But why make her feel bad for even a second?
One other thing...My mom had a wonderful doctor that would talk TO HER. He knew I was taking notes. I had talked to him in private early on. When he retired, the new young doctor would talk around her and say things like...she needs to do this, she shouldn't do that...blah blah! They should never do that with mom in the room. He may not ever understand until he goes through this with his parents. Needless to say, I did not go there any more,..because he didn't get it.
I told Mom I would take her to her doctor and give her private time with him and then I'll go join them to see if there's anything I can do to make things easier for her. It worked great. Good luck to you. It's a tough road. My Mom passed away a year ago. I will miss her forever, but never realized how much I was actually doing and how stressful it was, till she was gone.

To Annessister: you make a great point about doctors who may make wrong assumptions based only on age or may be dismissive of an individual's capabilities. I love your stories of older drivers who tested and drove just fine. We need doctors who are worthy of our confidence. Thank you for your reminder of another part of the picture!

"The POA just has to be filed through the lawyer now. She signed it already." This is a good first step. Do understand that POA doesn't give you all encompassing power over her (that would be full guardianship.) For instance, it doesn't grant you the power to take away her car or driving privileges.

"I also have access to her accounts so I can see her spending and put a watch on her credit since she thinks she gave out her SSN to one of those IRS scams."

At this stage she shouldn't need any credit checks, so I would highly recommend freezing her credit reports and alerts on her accounts. Freezing has to be requested with each of the three bureaus and you will get a pin number that you need to keep handy along with any other info needed if there's any need to unfreeze (YOU keep it in a safe place!) This is now FREE to all of us, freezing and unfreezing. She can continue to use whatever credit she has, it just prevents anyone opening new credit, among other things, in her name with her SS#.

Of all places, the EC atty office sent mine out via email. The staff person reviewed the trust document and needed to confirm my SS# to request tax id for the trust. Instead of calling me or asking me via email to contact them to do this, she included it in the email (NOT secure!) and asked if this was correct. I immediately called and expressed my serious concerns. She doesn't get it. Her response was their systems are secure. Sure toots, but once you hit SEND, it isn't on your system anymore, is it???

I spent the $30 needed at that time to freeze all my credit. One time later I had to pay an additional $10 to temp unfreeze one. I also put alerts on every account and credit card I have! Problem is, once the snake is out of the box, you don't know when or where it will strike!

While this is especially important for your mom, given the uncertainty of what she may have given out, IMO EVERYONE should do this, given all the various security breaches. Yes, it can be a pain, but much less of a pain than undoing what can be done to your identity if it is stolen and compromised! All those promises of protecting your information that you have to pay for, is (also IMO) a waste of money. I've had those given for free for a year due to a breach, but they never reported ANY suspicious activity and what good is a year? If they have your info, the criminals wait 366 days (or more) and have at it!!!

Do to have medical POA? If no, maybe time to get one.

Tell her that afterwards y'all will go for ice cream 🍦 at McDonald's. Works with Mother every time.

My husband and I were married for 35 years. He would not let me go to the DR with him. Because of Hepa the DR would not talk to me, would not even READ a letter I sent explaining everything going on in our house. I felt very frustrated and almost in a panic. My husband was in his late 50's early 60's when he first had a heart attack than a massive stroke. He was still driving(had a terrible accident - 1 vehicle thank g-d) he could not speak or help himself at that point. I finally had the DR's attention. My only choice prior to that was go to court and have him declared incompetent. That might be the way to go rather than live with the guilt of an accident. Good luck, its not easy

Slip the nurse a note to give to the doctor that your Mom probably won’t remember his instructions or suggestions and then all you can do is hope they will talk to you.

Hello RemoteDaughter.
The reason your Mom becomes very angry is because She is haunted by the fear of loosing Her memory, (mind) knowing this would be the beginning of the end for Her Life as She knows It. I must admit I can understand your Moms fear because this would trouble me too. I would suggest you meet Moms Doctor privately and express your worries and concern about your Mom, also that She's still driving Her motor car and this is a worry to you. The Doctor can insist that you accompany Mom to the Doctors Surgery in future, and if the Doctor notices that your Mom looses concentration, or is some times forgetful the Doctor can suggest that your Mom stops driving, after all
it is the Doctor Who certifies all of Us fit or unfit to drive.

Good Luck to you RemoteDaughter, and your Mom is so Blessed to have you.

First just to add to the other possibilities here, has her hearing been checked? Sometimes a gradual hearing deficit will cause a person to slowly compensate without really thinking about what they are doing, selective topics etc.

whatever is actually going on medically wether it be dementia in some form or something else I might try approaching it all from a different angle. One thing at a time but start with suggesting she get things in place so you are all prepared should something happen in the future. Put you on HIPPA at each of her doctors so they can communicate with you in the event she isn’t able to communicate her wishes or with you in the future. “My friends mother had a stroke and they weren’t prepared so not only couldn’t they get any info about what was happening but they had no input about treatment or what rehab she got”... that sort of thing relate it to being prepared for any possible need in the future rather than something being wrong with her now. Going to appointments with her now allows you and her doctors to get to know each other and you to learn more about how your mom likes to do things medically, interact with each provider. It also lets them know that she has family who are involved and she lets be involved which could come in handy in the future.

i would be very careful not to “take over” or make her feel like you are, ease her into trusting that this is to her benefit not the detriment she is afraid of. Then work on business stuff, offer to set up online banking and bill pay etc, let her experience the advantage of you doing it and decide for herself it’s easier to just have you do it. When it comes to driving maybe suggest again that she try the various transportation options before she really needs them and then just encourage her to take advantage of not “having” to drive. Then when a medical opportunity presents itself maybe the transition of not being able to drive anymore will be easier. With my mom she was sent home from the hospital with “no driving” orders and no doctors were willing to sign her off again until she had a special eval which she never really wanted to do. Then we told her that if she were to drive and have an accident we, her children, could be sued and held liable because we knew she had drs orders and that she was driving. She didn’t like it but it had been so long since she had driven and part of her knew she shouldn’t be. We had the perfect set up for this though because she had had a stroke and we could blame her slow response time and thought process on that.

Maybe you could get the Dr to ask a few questions so he can diagnose her but she wouldn't realize she is being tested. Like it's a normal visit. I don't know if that's legal, but it's worth a try.

Time to get POA- that way you can talk to Doctor. I was talking to my Dad's Dr about the situation and his decline on the down low. The Dr. helped immensely with writing orders for home health care etc.. I was managing the situation from 500 miles away. You definitely need local advocates!

See people suggest that taking the keys to prevent driving. However may have extra set or otherwise be able to get some help starting vehicle.Even taking away their license may not work as many people drive without license. Car itself must be removed. We told my mother car was being repaired. Since it was an import, takes time to get part. Eventually she forgot and stopped asking for car!

As her POA, I'd arrange to go to her house and stay with her for a few days, so you can see how she's doing in the house. She may be repeating things, but, she also may have some unhealthy conditions in the home, like spoiled food, dirty linens, broken toilets, etc. Sometimes, neighbors can tell you stuff you have no idea about, like her actions outside. I'd try to chat with them without her present to see if they have noticed anything. Her church or community area friends may have info as well. If you do get to the doctor, this information might be helpful. Also, if you're not at the doctor visit, you can't be sure what she reports is accurate.

Remote Daughter....You definitely need to write her doctor a letter about your observations of memory lapses and issues. If you know who her neurologist is send a copy to that doctor also. Keep a copy for yourself. You can always give a doctor information about someone in your care or a love one, but unless you have POA you can not receive information. If you have a POA send a copy along with your letter. In your letter make a list of things that you have noticed your mother doing or saying. I definitely knew my mother had a problem when my father was in the hospital and my mother was driving to see him, but she ended up at a senior home where my grandmother use to live and she was upset they would not let her see my dad. She was at the wrong place. My mother couldn't remember where items went or were placed in the kitchen and so many other things that don't sound bad, but when you add them all up, it starts to become a lot.
My mother's doctor never noticed any of my mothers issues or memory issues, because my mother was so good at hiding her issues until she received the letter. I live 10 hours away and I told my mother that I was going coming up and going with her to her doctor's appointment. She kept saying you don't need to do that and I told her I know I don't but, I want to just to hear what your doctor says. I told her as you age it is good to have another set of ears just to make sure you are hearing everything correctly that the doctor is saying. She said no again, but I stayed firm and told her I wasn't taking no for an answer. When I went in and her doctor was checking her over her doctor asked her how's your memory and my mom said "fine, I have no problems". You would have never suspected by my mother actions and her talking that there was anything wrong with her. When my mother said her memory was fine I spoke up and said well mom you have been very forgetful lately, my mother shot me the most dirty look, but I held my ground and her doctor jumped on that and beautifully said I would like to refer you to a specialist (neurologist) just for some testing just to make sure everything is ok. You know as we age our body changes and we want to be ahead of any issues so if there is a problem in the future we have a baseline to refer back to. My mother agreed to the testing.
Since I wasn't able to be there for the testing my brother went with her and my father and after all of the testing was completed the doctor stated that my mother had Alzheimer's and she was entering or already in the mid-stage. I reached out to the neurologist and asked for a letter stating that my mother could no longer drive and live alone. She sent me a letter which I promptly filled out the State of Michigan form and send a copy of letter to have my mother driver's license revoked. I figure if she did drive and something happened or she was stopped by the police they would know why and who to contact. My brother put the letter on the refrigerator so if my mom asked about her car my brother referred her to letter, but my mother wasn't interested in the letter and she was argumentative saying it is my car I can drive when I want. After this happened several times my brother was clever and took the keys and moved her vehicle to his house one day when she was sleeping and my SIL brought him back. He lived pretty close so my mother was not aware what took place. When my mother asked where her vehicle was my brother white lied "Mom remember ***** (nephew) borrowed your car because his is in the shop and they had to order parts and he had no way to work". My mom would always say "Oh yeah, I forgot" "I wonder how much longer he will need my vehicle, I really need to go shopping". It is like out of sight out of mind. Your mom say this over and over, but evidentially she will quit asking about the car. This car question and answer game went on for about 4 years, and up until she was unable to speak she would asked every once in

My LO needed to stop driving, and I was told about a form I could file and basically send anonymously to the Dept. Of Motor Vehicles.

So I did, and in return the DMV sent her a form that she needed her doctor to fill out as well as she had to come in and take a written driving test.

Luckily for me I already had a diagnosis of Dementia for her so I added that to the original form submitted. In the end my LO bailed on any idea of taking a written drivers test knowing full well that passing it was never gonna happen.
Also, the doctor stated that my LO should not be driving.

So I submitted all this paperwork back to the DMV, and in less then 3 weeks later we received a letter suspending my LO’s driving privilege.
The POA we had for her clearly stated when they can no longer drive that I can sell the vehicle. Which is what happened.

California is where this scenario played out. Whatever state your in I’m guessing they have something similar.
Good Luck

I sent my mom's doc a note about my not wanting her to drive because of her Alzheimer's, and the doc backed me up, so the doc was the "bad guy" and not me. I took my mom everywhere she wanted to go: shopping, errands, doc appointments, etc. I'd love to be chauffeured around, but my mom still missed driving, and I guess, the independence that was inherent within that. Maybe your mom's doc can help with that, if he or she agrees. I agree with other people who posted here, too, in that you'll need to have a Plan B regarding caregiving, transportation, etc. Best of luck. I've walked in your shoes.

HI.
I had to chime in. Driving while older is a danger to All. The reflex time is reduced tremendously.

I just wanted to say, her physician would be who you contact.
Let the office know the above concerns.. he or she will have a good chat session with her, anonymously of course. I'm hoping she has a doc that knows her good enough to.
Also there comes a time in point that HIPAA laws need bending.
If a daughter calls in, she can state her concerns, pass it on to the physician.
1-you don't believe the tests
2- she should give up her keys.
3-DMV has a way of helping. In calif, they are supposed to have seniors come in every year, & do a driving test..you may want to Google that in your area.
Goodluck