On this site a lot of people talk about their narcissistic parent. What are the traits of a narcissistic parent?

SueC1957:

Your mother was the overt type of narcissist. They can be easier to deal with at times.

Regarding your, Mom's changed personality.

It's possible, from a neurological perspective, that the brain may have made connections to your mother's emotional centers (Amygdala) through another pathway because the dementia damage another part of her brain.

I am so glad you got to experience an NPD who is now in touch with her emotional side.

Please enjoy it. I am glad for you. What a gift.

Can't Dance,
I remember when my 7 year old son fell off his bike. He was scratched up but was more shaken up. Being the nurse mom, I doctored his wounds and hugged and kissed him. He asked me if he was going to die! I spent the next 5 minutes reassuring him that the worst was already over.

I can not imagine NOT being involved when your child is hurt. I would think that would be ingrained into the fiber of being a mother. (I know some people can't stand the sight of blood so have dad do the doctoring but mom can still kiss the boo-boo's.)

After my Mom and Dad were divorced (I was 5), many years later Dad shared with me that Mom "was as cold as a fish". We both grew away from her.

Tev,
You deserve SO much better!

I hope you made a full recovery from your injuries. 🙏🏼

In my husband it is like this: I was in the hospital from a car wreck. I had multiple things wrong with me. Oxygen, tubes, monitors etc. I was very sick. He comes in the room and doesn't ask how I am, he says I'm suffering too, what about me, what about me. He keeps saying what about me. He wasn't hurt in the accident at all. He was staying in a nearby hotel. He said the mattress was lumpy. I was dying. That's it.

Once as a child, I remember a nasty bicycle accident. Bruised and bleeding, I rushed to Mom for first aid and comfort. Her response was irritation. She never examined my injuries. She told me to suck it up and leave her alone; she was busy.

She informed me my brother that we were accidents. When I was a young mother she declared I "had no business having children." A conscientious mom, I planned for and cherished my children.

Not many years ago I overheard her tell a friend I was her rival for my father's affection. Her resentment, she said, was justified. That was the first I'd ever heard it verbalized. I already knew about the penalty for loving and being loved.

During the acute mourning phase after my father's death, I told Mom about how much I missed him. She responded, "Well, how do you think I feel? _____ was my husband, whereas he was just your father!"

Feelings are no longer shared with Mom. Good feelings will be crushed. Bad feelings are stockpiled and used for future torment. I let her talk about her favorite subject: herself. One cannot expect validation or sympathy from the self-absorbed.

Heather,
I thought the article was saying that BECAUSE of their underlying vulnerablility, they act self righteous, self absorbed, etc. to COVER UP the vulnerablility.

I guess you could also have a narcissist that would use insecurity as a tool but that certainly wasn't MY mother. She came off as a Queen to everyone, except the rich, extremely intelligent individuals or government officials. Then she came off as one of them. 
No pity at all for the poor or less fortunate-in other words, no tolerance. Like her ______ didn't stink and always with that darn "hauty" attitude.

Good news is that, at end stage 6 Alzheimer's, there is no more NPD. It's all gone because her mind is all gone too. :(

She looked at me a couple weeks ago and told me that she loved me. I darned near started crying. That was the first time I'd heard it said like THAT.....I guess like she really means it. 

Maybe that's the reason we both had to travel this horrible journey down dementia lane, so I could hear those words like I've been wanting to for 61 years. Even though I've built a wall to "protect" me from her, at that moment, I told her I loved her too.

WHY couldn't we have done this for the last 61 years? Oh well, at least I have caught a glimpse of who my mother really is before she dies. She's 95-1/2. She certainly waited til the last moment.

I will treasure the look in her poor little lost eyes because I think she (finally) really meant it.

Gotta get a Kleenex 😢

[ Sue C1957 wrote:

This is amazing to me! To think that my pompous, entitled, "better than everyone else" mother was narcissistic because she was VULNERABLE?

Wow, I can't wrap my head around that theory. What a strange manifestation of vulnerablility. 🤔

Who knew?

So that's why mom was married 4 times. That's why she pushed me away at 5 when I went to hug her! THAT'S why she told me never to depend on a man! This is a "lightbulb moment" for me!

What do ya'll think of this? ]
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Sue C:

NPD is a spectrum disorder, with the very malignant Npd being very similar to a sociopath or a psychopath.

In Studies regarding psychopaths when asked what it was they wanted most from people....the answer was "their pity".   The psychologist conducting the study were thrown off because they expected them to say that they wanted other poeple's admiration or fear.

So if an NPD is acting vulnerable and insecure, it is likely a way to gain control over their victim.

They may act insecure and vulnerable but they use this to guilt and control their victim.

If you have ever heard an NPD laughing about this guilting/control behavior you will soon realize that giving them sympathy is the worst thing you can do.

Hi demstress:

The psych central article really did not appear to apply to narcissistic personality disorder.

NPD is more about lacking empathy and being competitive with their own children and grandiose regarding their own personal achievements and acting like a two-year-old.

People who start new careers, or care about their appearance do not necessarily have a personality disorder. In fact, I think that article is very ageist.  It is also harmful, IMO, to make this claim regarding older people who re-school, re-career or care about their appearance or health.

IMO, it's healthy for older people to re-school or seek a second career after retirement or to care about their appearance.

Working and going back to school is known to prevent dementia and Alzheimers and it is not a given that an elderly person will have dementia or Alzheimers.

My grandfather lived to be 98 and was always as sharp as a tack. His body was failing some, but not his mind.

Contrastingly, people with NPD often act as if they are stuck in their terrible twos and that is why they often appear to have dementia or Alzheimers even in their 20s. They are also very often mean and spiteful, either overtly or passive aggressively.

The way to distinguish the childlike qualities dementia or Alzheimer patients develop from a person with NPD is the timeline.

For example: Someone with NPD will have thrown tantrums and acted like a self-absorbed two year old ALL THEIR LIFE.


While a person with dementia or Alzheimers will suddenly develop this trait, after diagnosis.


Also there are two types of NPD.  One is overt npd.  Where the person is very pompous and arrogant along with all the other traits of NPD.


The other is the covert narcissist.  They often act insecure and play the victim to get sympathy.  Although they may laugh at the people who respond sympathetically to the, behind their backs.  The covert types play the same deceitful mind games, but do it more passive aggressively.


IMO, the Covert NPD is more dangerous because it is more difficult for outsiders to see them the same way the victim does. Therefore, the victim is often not believed when they complain of the passive aggressive abuse.

Hm. Yes, I'd say your mother certainly notched up quite a few credits towards her full NPD qualification there, Frazzled, wouldn't you?

I hope you thanked her for her touching concern.

I'm so sorry you went through this.

I don't know if my mom would qualify as a full blown narcissist, but if not she definitely has NPD traits.

With her, everything has always been "all about me." And it's always felt like I'm the parent and she the child. It's always been a role reversal like this in a sense.

Three years ago, before I got pregnant with my youngest, I had a miscarriage. I had told some family about it, but had not told mom. I've always kept stuff to myself with her because she really doesn't care what I'm going through except how it affects her. Well, sure enough, she found out and called to yell at me about how upset she was that "she lost a grandchild and didn't even know it." There was no "I'm so sorry" "Are you doing ok?", etc. Just angry at me for not telling her.

Add to all of her "normal" personality traits her paranoia and delusions, and now cognitive and memory impairment, and you can just imagine..it's either drama with her or a list of things to do. No consideration for anything I might have going on in my life nor any appreciation for what I do for her. I do what I can, and make sure she is well cared for, but I have better boundaries than I did before.

SueC, you are spot on with the article. My mom was adopted when she was little and told me she had been in and out of orphan homes until she was finally taken in by the woman who I grew up knowing as grandma, who loved mom and vice versa very much. But even so, Mom would be put in the closet when she misbehaved (90 years ago) and threatened to be returned to the home if she didn't behave. So yes, looking back I see the reason for her going with the "mean look" and then being sweet and back and forth.

She also never has seemed to have empathy and still thinks of herself and her wants over someone else's.

So, the latest, dinner with Mom and 2 daughters, oldest who has always been "right" and competitive and cannot "read between the lines". Younger daughter lives with mom and me and truly understands mom's behavior. So tonight, older daughter picked mom up to meet for dinner after work for younger daughter and I. Mom must have told her that her back hurts but she "didn't want to bother me because I am going on a vacation in a week".  And of course older daughter who visits occasionally is mad at me and telling me what I need to do for her grandma.   Here's the rest of the story.

Last night and this morning Mom had absolutely no back pain complaints. She has arthritis and chronic discomfort in her back and takes Tylenol. Last night mom and I were laughing all the way through a couple of TV movies. This morning she walked the same taking the dogs out, no grimaces, nothing. And I asked her if she had any falls today or if something happened and she said no. 

Here's the deal.... I was not going to tell her about my vacation ( a week to myself to destress from a 60-70hr. week job and caregiving )  until right at the time I was leaving (youngest daughter lives with us and she and her boyfriend do very well watching over grandma), but decided to go ahead and tell her about it a couple of days ago. BIG mistake.... now she is doing the SAME thing she has done in the past.... start exhibiting health issues that are not and were not there in the past..... to keep me from leaving.

Some years ago after Dad had passed away, I used to come and stay with Mom over the holidays and leave for the next job contract in January. She would start coming up with she couldn't breathe, she was having trouble breathing when she would walk.... after taking her to the doctor and being told that everything was fine, it finally dawned on me that it was anxiety... she did not want me to leave and that was how she was trying to get me stay. Another time, before leaving for a longer contract, she didn't eat right, didn't drink enough liquids, and I was seriously contemplating breaking the contract and not going, but my youngest daughter told me to go on that she would take care of it. She did. Mom was taken to the hospital and was dehydrated. Since those times, I have realized what she does and been stronger (oldest daughter thinks I am mean and nasty) and firmer with her and called her bluff. I talked with her and told her that it was her choice if she didn't want to eat or drink, that no one including me was going to force her to do either. But if she did that again, she would have to go the hospital again.

Mom has never been the one to talk to if I wanted her to be happy for me; she can't. She doesn't know how. So again, I have just been reminded, that she is doing what she can to keep me here. Of course I will watch her over the next few days and if she is truly having pain, I will take her to be X-ray-d or MRI'd, but I should have known better and not told her. And in the future, I won't. Hope this helps someone else to understand and prepare yourself.

My mother has always confused me, and four-fold now that she is declining. Reading these and other entries here about narcissistic parent behavior has been an epiphany for me. I have many similar stories about my mom, including her anti-social behavior. Thank you to everyone who shared your experiences, concerns and thoughts, I am grateful for your candor - you have helped me.

Thanks for this thread. I too, have/had a narcissistic mother. Had is in quotes because now she has dementia and is NOTHING like the mother I had for most my life: she is sweet, gentle with a little sense of humor. I truly believe this is who she is and once was- the universe has a really twisted sense of humor at times. I almost feel as the narsassim was triggered by suppressed unhappiness in her marriage (or stress/fear) cause I seriously doubt she was that way when she got married. I received the brunt of it, my brother not as much; and my DAd none. My parents eventually divorced- but her behavior was the same if not worse toward me and I later found out more about how my Dad treated her- he was very controlling- his way or the highway.
anyway, this has been a very validating conversation so thank you everyone.

I agree that there is a low self esteem issue with narcissists, anyone who has to degrade others to feel any self worth is pathetic, but the hurt they inflict negates any compassion you could have for them, because they view compassion as a weakness and they target and exploit weaknesses. Maybe this doctor was justifying his actions.

I agree with MargaretMcken, its hooey.

Sue, I think the article is rubbish. Perhaps everyone has some insecurity deep down inside – so what? If someone consistently projects the opposite, enjoys doing so, and disregards the pain they cause to others, then they can go jump before we should feel sorry for them.

And the article ends by saying;

"Their terror of being unworthy is frequently....managed with bravado and blame, but it’s profound and palpable. Sadly, their anger at having their mistakes and missteps exposed ultimately alienates their loved ones, and the demise of yet another relationship prompts them to redouble their efforts to avoid vulnerability — in short, it pushes them towards more narcissism.

The sad irony of the narcissistic condition is that, in an effort to protect themselves, narcissists inevitably invite the very rejection and abandonment they fear in the first place.

The key then, to interacting with someone you suspect is narcissistic, is to break the vicious circle — to gently thwart their frantic efforts to control, distance, defend or blame in the relationship by sending the message that you’re more than willing to connect with them, but not on these terms — to invite them into a version of intimacy where they can be loved and admired, warts and all — if they only allow the experience to happen."
_______________
I'm not sure, with SO much "water under the bridge" at this stage, that we would "want" to try to repair or get reacquainted with a relationship.

Thanks to Dr. Craig Malkin for the article.

I got to thinking about narcissism being prevalent in our parents era, so I Googled "Narcissism in history". I found this and the reasoning behind the disorder shocked me.

From Huffpost.com;
"Many have suggested that NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) emerges from an environment in which VULNERABLILITY comes to feel dangerous, representing, at worst, either a grave defect, or at best, a stubborn barrier to becoming a worthwhile human being.......hence the correlation between NPD and insecure attachment styles, (in which fears of depending on anyone at all) engender constant attempts to control the relationship or AVOID INTIMACY altogether. If you devote yourself to directing interactions or holding people at arms length, it’s a lot harder to become vulnerable..

People with NPD have learned to ignore, suppress, deny, project and disavow their vulnerabilities (or at least try) in their attempts to shape and reshape “who they are” in their interactions. 

Changing (their personality)— allowing the vulnerability back in — means opening up to the very feelings they’ve learned to avoid at all costs. It’s not that people with NPD can’t change, it’s that it often threatens their sense of personhood to try. And their failed relationships often confirm, in their minds, that narcissism is the safest way to live.

Put another way, narcissists can’t be narcissistic in a vacuum. They need the right audience in order to feel like a star...so they often cultivate relationships with people who stick around for the show, instead of the person. Over time, as their perfect façade starts to slip, their constant fear that people will find them lacking becomes a horrifying reality. The very people who stuck around for the show lose interest when it ends — which merely convinces the narcissist they need to hide their flaws and put on a better show."
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This is amazing to me! To think that my pompous, entitled, "better than everyone else" mother was narcissistic because she was VULNERABLE?
Wow, I can't wrap my head around that theory. What a strange manifestation of vulnerablility. 🤔
Who knew?

So that's why mom was married 4 times. That's why she pushed me away at 5 when I went to hug her!  THAT'S why she told me never to depend on a man! This is a "lightbulb moment" for me!

What do ya'll think of this?

Here are some real life examples that may apply to narcissism. Someone who wounds with carefully chosen words, uses conversation in a passive aggressive way, does for you in order to make you dependent on them, instills fear in you to keep you close to them, instills fear or doubt in you to punish you, sees others tragedy or misfortune as how it affects them, often cannot enjoy others good fortune, may praise you behind your back but never to your face, negativity and pessimism, plays the martyr.

A narcissist will attack you on a daily basis. They have a very strong will and will make your life miserable. They will run you ragged and what you do is never good enough. It's exhausting, a constant fight. It might make it easier to deal with knowing this. Try not to feed into it.Maybe the dementia will mellow her out some. Sorry you have to put up with that.

"A narcissist is a person who has an excessive interest in or admiration of themselves." "A narcissist thinks the world revolves around them."

In a way, we are all narcissists because we all see the world through our own eyes and our own experiences. In a way, we are the center of our world, and thus our world revolves around ourselves. We can focus on other people though because we know that everyone else is, in a way, the same as us. Everyone sees the world through his or her eyes and his or her experiences. We connect. We share. We empathize.

The elderly aren't young anymore. Their bodies have aged and are continuing to age. They can't do the things they used to be able to do. They don't see things clearly, both literally and figuratively. They might be having a harder time connecting and sharing with others around them. Also, it might be harder for them to empathize with those who are younger, healthier, and have more years of life left.

And to demstress, the OP, I am 63 (mom is 92) and I had no clue what narcissism was or that that was why I had difficulty with my mother until a few years ago, when I saw an article and started digging and reading more about it, and then bought a couple of books on amazon, i.e. daughters of narcissistic mothers. It was so helpful and validating to know that all those years I thought I was at fault for "everything" that it wasn't me (well I'm sure some of it was) but you know what I mean, I hope.... so hopefully with only having discovered this a few years ago, and having 3 grown children, HOPEFULLY, I haven't scr+*$ed them up too badly :). and so it goes ....

Dkentz72, Margaret McKen's answer is right on point.... your mom by your description is not narcissistic. That is a good thing.

Heather10,.... that is an excellent way of describing it.... Overt and Covert. My mom is the latter.... Thank God she does not have dementia, too... not yet anyway.

Just yesterday, I was so angry after first having my mouth drop open when she told my daughter that the reason she did not want to go with me/us to a nearby show, was because there were no tickets left for us to sit together. And she did not want to go because she did not want to sit by herself.    I said very clearly outloud, "Mom, that is not why you didn't want to go, because when I bought my ticket there were seats together and I asked you, and you said "no", to which I replied "ok". And "why are you telling [daughter's name] that you're not going because you don't want to sit by yourself?" "why don't you tell the truth, and just say you don't want to go?"

Ahhhh, but because daughter is now interested in going, Mom has to insert herself into the situation. Very typical narcissistic thing that she does often... gaslighting me..... and of course, then later mutters under her breath with words of playing the victim, and doesn't understand why I'm like that to her [ asking her to tell the truth?? Really ????]

Dkentz72, you had an extremely competent mother who did what she needed to do. Mine was too. She left my father, worked hard, and I never felt like a ‘latchkey kid’ - she knew we were perfectly capable of being alone for a couple of hours. Other people sometimes called her controlling, I didn’t. This isn’t narcissism.

Reading the lists, it was my father in a nutshell. I informed him as a matter of courtesy when she died (I cared for her at home until her death), and he faxed me by return a picture of a screaming woman entitled ‘Revenge Pursued Beyond The Grave’. He must have had it ready. Thank God she saved us from him.

W61ha13D asks are there really that many narcissists? Earlier in life, there are too few people who call them on it, and too many people who accept the image and prop it up. Now there are more narcissists who live long enough to lose sympathy, and more victims being forced into dealing with them. Thank God for this site if it can help.

Then there are the narissistic sociopath - they tend to be the minister who gave up xmas dinner with his family to help at something & everyone wonders why his wife left him - or the neighbour who help fix everyone else's things not for his family - what they are craving is admiration for their good deeds & really only do these to get the admiration -

They often seem to be a great person so the family who really knows them are never given any outside support - many will say to them 'oh he's such a great guy' so how can they deal with how poor a dad he is - this tends to make other family members think they are the problem

I believe as they start dementia that this was an underlying trait that now comes to the forefront so they suddenly appear narissistic but actually had disguised it for quite a while because they can't keep up appearances anymore it now shows up - this means looking back at their actions as a whole over years

Demstress
You're right, but I personally do not see the narcissistic element.

I see this so called narcissism as how the parent was as a person and a parent. What was their vocation during their work career? Was the person a stay at home Mother, disciplinarian, household finance keeper?
Our Mother raised her 2 brothers. She became the Mom and housekeeper before she was 7. The home environment was not good, but she took control and did what had to be done.
She married our Father and her job went from her home life to married life until she went back to work after my brother started 1st grade; we became latchkey before it was given the title. We took Mom's place until she got home from work BUT we had what she never did....CHILDHOOD and our TEEN YEARS.
Mom became the Operations Officer for the Commercial Credit Dept for a bank which is now a bank with many many branches in this Country.
Her job was background research for companies as well as the individuals with these companies wanting to either get or extend their commercial lines of credit. She worked side x side with very important bank Officers all the way up to the Bank President, CEO.
She ran the household, the finances, Girl Scout Leader, Home Room Mother, Home Block safety Mother and always the disciplinarian, unless it was so bad she'd leave it to Dad.
Does she show signs of "narcissism"? That depends are the true meaning of the word; or are you just seeing what they are/have lost as well as no longer being.
I know my Mother does not sit in front of a mirror to coif her hair, make up on, the perfect dress/shoes/purse to match, pearls/earrings so as to impress people, belong to a Country Club and be seen with the "right/influential" people. She never did this unless she was going to work and yes, women had a MANdated dress code.
Who I see now is Mom not knowing who she is any longer, family, the world around her. She wants to be the person she was but can't unless something triggers her mind of her past.
I see frustration, depression and loss.
I remember Mom as who she was, but most importantly who she still is...my Mom.

Thank you for the question and the subsequent discussion. At least for a second I don't feel quite so alone and battered taking care of my father, whose picture is in Webster's dictionary next to the definition of narcissist.
I think back to the defining moment as I sat with my mom at the end of her life and my father was on the phone with me demanding I find him a podiatrist as he needed his toenails trimmed. I was blessed by the hospital social worker who at that point put in a no contact order so I could focus on my mom and not my father's demands and threats.
No human comes equipped with the tools needed to remain balanced and healthy when they find themselves the primary caregiver for a narcissistic parent. So again. Thank you for this discussion.

I'm thinking that if you are not sure, then odds are they are not narsistic. Both my parents are and I can tell you that if you were raised by a narsisist you would read about one and completely understand that is your parent in a nut shell. (No pun intended, but if the shell fits?)

I recently read an article by an FBI agent and studies have shown that narsistic, psychopath and sociopath individuals share a great number of personalities. That creeped me out but it is true.

When you never do anything right, can't dance fast enough to please them and can hold a PHD and not know your bung hole from a hole in the ground, you are dealing with a narsisist, they are the smartest, cleverest, most awesome person on the planet and always turn the focus on themselves.

It is so sad that they are what they are, sadder yet is that their offspring believe the rotten sobs when they run them in the ground.

HUGS to all of you who have said "No more", no matter what anyone says we are also worthy of love and respect and if that means we have to walk completely away to avoid being devoured, so be it.

Perhaps someday I will write a book about it. I have a narcissistic mother and she has been that way all of my life. She is 84 and I am 61. The intensity of this disorder has magnified 100 times in the last few years...and definitely this last month.
She is extremely manipulative, plays the victim role, gaslights me (turns everything around so it's my fault). She plays the woman who cries wolf...she tells me she doesn't feel well, I suggest we call the dr...and then she backs down. She can be very mean.
I am currently working with her primary care physician and I am going to make an appt with a gerontologist. She needs an psychological evaluation...as she has been on xanax for over 20+ years and I believe there is a physical addiction...Her anxiety level is off the charts even with the xanax.
I am an only child. I am it in terms of her care. I've had to learn to set very strong boundaries, take her in small doses, and communicate via computer rather than having shouting matches in person or on the phone.
My best advice is to make sure you engage in self care for yourself...If you are not well, you won't have the strength for your narcissistic parent. There are many websites out there with very good information on how to deal with this. If you are a daughter, consider looking up Peg Streep.

Karsten:

There are two types of narcissist. The type that is pompous and grandiose is the Overt type.

The type that APPEARS insecure an shy is the covert type or the introverted type.

The Covert type is actually more malignant than the overt type.

The coverts are far more sneaky and they are always playing the victim card.

There seeming sensitivity and shyness and pity parties are all tools they use to manipulate and fool and control people

I have recently come to grips that this is what my mother is and I am the one who cares for her now - for over 6 yrs. She drained all my energy for the first 3 plus years until I finally put up borders. I was very ill from trying to keep up with her incessant demands of me and my family. My daughter had to move back here to help me because I was so weakened by the experience. I know it sounds over-the-top, but I had to do something and I began to research the calamity of this whole existence. It was then that I realized why my siblings and I left home at a very young age to get away from her. And almost 30 yrs later, she was back in my life full force with all her demands and needs so she could continue her life by getting me to replicate what my father used to do for her. Sorry to sound so blatant, but the realization snuck up on me like a ton of bricks. Now she has volunteers who take her out if she wants to go and she gets Meals on Wheels so I don’t have to take her shopping every other day for food. She is 92 it’s old, but don’t let the age fool you. She is still the same energy draining tornado she always was. But I have put up boundaries now and she acts so hurt. It was either her or me and it’s not going to be me. I am finally gaining back some of my health. It was difficult to admit that this was the situation, but understanding what it was all this time has helped me to gain control back of my life.