Received demand letter from Grandma’s attorney. What should I do?

Yes, all you need to do is prove to the lawyer where the money went or may have gone. I agree, you need to step back until grandma can get some help. Get confirmation that the lawyer feels he is satisfied. Tell APS that the ball is in their court. You can no longer deal with Gmas accusations. That the State will need to take over her care. You are pregnant and your baby is going to be #1 priority.

Please go no contact with this woman. Only have contact through her lawyer, and then end all contact. This woman is not your responsibility. Your future baby is your responsibility. She is probably jealous of your future baby on top of being a nefarious lawbreaker who has brought trouble to you when you only tried to help. Please get away from this woman. You sound like a kind person who probably feels responsible for this woman. Again, your responsibility is to your future baby. And that responsibility includes taking care of yourself, not your grandmother. Please do not let her back into your or your child's life. She will bring your child pain, too. I'm sorry - I too have these relatives, and they would as soon take an axe to you as trim their own toenails.

I'm back with a little update. I submitted the bank statements to GM's attorney, they confirmed receipt. GM was claiming (to her IHSS caretaker) that I never sent any documents to her attorney, and that her attorney said she would have to pay a $2500 retainer if she wanted them to purse getting the statements. I called GM's attorney who again confirmed they received the statements and also said they provided GM with copies of all the statements, they did not say she needed to pay a retainer for them. After IHSS caretaker asked GM about this, she admitted that she did actually receive the statements but that "they are just words". GM also told caretaker that she is going to pay the $2500 retainer fee (seems pretty low to me) for her attorney to pursue this further (I guess she paid a flat fee for the demand letter they initially sent). I also told GM's attorney that if GM would like to move forward with her accusations, having received the statements, I will counter sue for false claims of abuse.

I had been in a holding pattern until now. Can her attorney further pursue this given that I have provided statements? I have found an attorney that will represent me but I haven't paid the retainer yet because I didn't want to pay for one if I could squash this without one. I'm trying to save for my maternity leave this summer and this expense is going to be devastating to me.

GM is also still collecting HUD, IHSS, and Medi-Cal benefits through all of this. I have been so tempted to report this to the appropriate agencies but I realize this would seem vindictive on my part. I haven't contacted APS nor have I been contacted by them at this point.

As recommended, I was able to find the case files for the WalMart lawsuit online, which I paid to download. Looks like she got $25k in 2014. I was not able to find the documents for the Estate online, however.

ITRR, I am writing about our post exchanges on 19 February on this thread. Your ‘wow’ post originally said that you were tired of my (infrequent) bible quotes which you said were ‘warped’ and ‘blasphemous’. You also said that women wore inappropriate clothing (can’t remember the actual unpleasant word) that ‘caused men to sin’. ‘Lead’ possibly, ‘caused’ no way. Your post was changed to ‘wow’ after I demonstrated immediately that I knew full well the text of the sermon on the mount. All done within the ‘edit’ times. An apology would have been more appropriate, but deleting your text was OK. Then you denied it all?

You usually are a sensible and helpful poster, and I don't tell lies. What’s going wrong here? Do you think that the site is hacked by someone else with your user name? I hope you are OK yourself.

Frustrated, just out of curiosity, check the state bar list of grievances for your state and see if this attorney has had any grievances filed against him.

Hope this will help a bit. You are not the only person in this situation. My mother is 99 you and recently she and my adopted brother went to the lawyer and the bank and changed everything to his name from mine. My husband and I paid for the headstone they chose and funeral arrangements. That was done about 15 years ago. Now I am being accused by both of them oder stealing money, jewellery and items from her apartment. My adopted brother actually had her bank card and has emptied her bank accounts every month ( I know this as I had been getting the bank statements prior time this mess) my adopted brother has not spoken to me in years. Mom has dementia so I find my self wondering how she was able to change POA and Will plus bank accounts??? I have been told that she never wanted me and has never loved me and actually hates me. I am trying to put a paper trail together.

Dear Frustrated, I am writing to try to cheer you up and calm you down, with a story you can relate to. A few years before he died, my appalling father sent my older sister a lump of money. She was surprised and thanked him for the gift, then split it between herself, our younger sister and me. We also wrote and thanked him. The only reason we could think of for his first-ever generosity was another attempt to set us at loggerheads with each other, one of his nicer tricks. A couple of years later he asked for it back again. Younger sister has spent hers on irrigation pipe, not possible. Then I got a lawyer’s letter accusing my older sister and me of theft and breach of our professional trust obligations. Lots of head scratching, and it seemed possible that the money was hiding insurance fraud (it seemed likely he had nicked a ring from his then wife and claimed it as an insurance loss). I wrote back to him asking if it was related to the ring saga, sent a copy to the lawyer, and never heard from them again. Father then complained to my and my sister’s professional bodies of breach of trust. Both eventually said it was a domestic not a professional matter (subtext: a can of worms we don't want to know about). Just lovely!

Paying for a lawyer’s ‘frightener’ letter is a cheap, common and often effective strategy, and lawyers don’t investigate whether the allegations are true. I have dealt with my appalling father’s allegations against my mother, grandfather, me or my sisters for most of my life (since to my own primary school principal) so I have runs on the board in dealing with it, and you are not the only one with crooked family members. Stay away from Grandma and close to your coming baby. Lots of love, Margaret

Several observations here, but first:

SoFrustrated, the attorney who seemed to be having problems with math used a tactic of attorneys:   take a position, don't elaborate but tempt the person who will respond to open the door and VOLUNTEER information. 

One version is to make a statement that's not quite true, more or less challenging the other person (you) to offer more information to explain and justify your position.

Whether the attorney is math qualified is irrelevant; attorneys have staff and bookkeepers who could do the addition.  This guy planned it so that you would volunteer information.

I don't fault you for not seeing this trap; most people wouldn't.  Just don't volunteer any more information.

You've gotten a lot of advice, and I think it's a good time to move forward with your plans to protect yourself, and find an experienced attorney in a firm with multiple practice areas so that each of the relevant concerns and aspects of the situation can be addressed.

And go camping again!   This weekend, preferably.   It may have been difficult to "clear your head" before, so you'll have to work on it.   I hope there are some good camping areas near you, and that you can find the peace you need to move forward, with whatever you and your new attorney feel are appropriate.

BTW, please check your PMs.

Okay, so do you have the letter sent to you by the executor?

Your gma sounds like a thoroughly evil person. I would not be POA for such a person

Frustrated: Your comments about Grandma read below? She is not old? Likely not demented, sounds to me. And with a history of avarice. I think that any case brought by her would end with her own accounts being investigated as to where she has hidden monies given to her, and would certainly result in a withdrawal of her medicaid, and rightly so. She won't go that far I think. I now understand that she gave all monies to you. I wouldn't talk to her lawyer. Refer her lawyer to the Estate Executor of the Aunt, to see how and why he dispersed the money he did in the manner he did. Meanwhile log in and gather together all receipts, letters, proofs you have and start a scrapbook of proof of everything you gave to grandma. Sounds like she is working a scheme right now, and it could be on you.
I would refuse any further contact with this old woman; she is a bully. Tell her that you have been advised by lawyers not to discuss anything with her while she is questioning actions you took in her behalf. Period. End of story for her.
Go to a lawyer at once and have a resignation of POA sent to her. NOW. Then get on with your pregnancy. This is something driven by your somewhat "mad" grandmother. No one else is questioning you. Just a pissed off Grandma. She is threatening you while you are pregnant? How is that for being a cruel, mad old woman.
Refuse to let it destroy the remaining months of carrying your first child. Get some help for mental health; that is privledged information you will give, and she or he can help you stay mindfully in your own life while this mad old woman decides her next move. And by the by, she isn't that old. Tell her you will not communicate with her until you receive a letter from her lawyer saying that the matter that was of concern to her is cleared up.
This old woman (younger than me) appears she is a totally bored drama queen. God knows where she is tucking all this money. What of it she isn't using for a lawyer. Is your mother still alive? What says she of any of this that her mother is doing? What of it is she aware of?

Hopefully everything works out positively for this individual. I was the executor to my mother's estate and know that inheritance checks are made out to the heirs name only. If the heir declines then that share goes to the remaining heirs. Those checks cannot be made out to a second party. If the executive did that they are in violation of the law, My sister tried that approach when our mother died. My sister had to set up an irrevocable trust so she would not lose her government benefits.

Ffrustrated, when you talked to the executor, did you (or s/he) discuss whether the funds were going to you or to gma?

Enough, already. Point taken, I’m sure.

I have to say that I find the continued flatulation of the OP disturbing. Wait... no... that isn’t right... that’s farting. Flagellation. That’s it. 

As bible verses are commonly used around AC - I’m going to use one of my favorites. John 8:7 “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”  

Speaking only for myself - I know that I’ve certainly made some bad choices in my life. And yes, some of them illegal.  I bought alcohol before I was 21. I bought pot years before it was legal. And, I suppose I even defrauded the government when I lied a little about the amount I used as a charitable deduction. 

So I purpose - aren’t there shades of grey in our “sinning”, our mistakes? Or is it all so black and white?

Wait a minute.

The executor sent you a check made out to YOU?

I think you need to be in touch with the executor to clarify if those funds were yours to keep.

Perhaps gma exercised her right of refusal. In which case you owe her nothing.

You need a lawyer! You knew your grandmother was committing fraud. You accepted that inheritance check and deposited in your account. You withdrew the funds in periodic amounts and gave them to your grandmother with no documented proof still knowing about your grandmother continuing fraud. You inadvertently helped her commit the fraud and you cannot prove you gave her the money. You had enough knowledge to pull only a certain amount money from your account so you would supposedly not be reported. That in itself shows you are not totally innocent in this whole fiasco. I do not feel bad for anyone who knowingly does or helps with fraud of government benefits. As far as thinking you will not be reported to the IRS by only withdrawing a certain amount is ludicrous. Not only do you have possible financial abuse against you, tax fraud could also be added to your dilemma. Even if you were totally oblivious to all that has transpired, ignorance is no excuse for the law and cannot be used asa defense when crimes have been committed.

EP, to explain, possibly: it has been my experience that narcissists' recollection of events and facts is exceptionally selective. They will include anything that fits their desired goal - e.g. I inherited $100K in cash, I arranged for it to be channelled through my niece, my niece must hand it over - and discard anything that doesn't - e.g., in this case, Medicaid pays for my care, my niece has handed me large rolls of large bills on numerous occasions, I have been burgled regularly, I'm not in fact sure of what my balance ought to be, let alone what it is, etc. etc.

So grandma will have gone to her lawyer with a narrative, and the lawyer is duly acting according to that narrative. It isn't the lawyer's fault.

But the trouble is that these stirrings will raise questions which may escape the bounds of lawyer/client confidentiality, and it is very difficult for poor F to demonstrate where she is blameless because of gaps in the paper trail. I really think she must take advice or she won't be able to sleep.

What has transpired here is a crime. Your grandma committed fraud...on a grand scale...but, you are an accessory before, during, and after the fact. You not only abided this crime...you actively help to commit it and conceal it,

oh boy....get a criminal attorney. This isn’t going to be cheap.

This has been an interesting thread.

Frustrated, I must say, your grandmother has some brass balls coming after you.

Before she can prove you did anything wrong, or stole from her, etc she FIRST has to prove and ADMIT that the money was hers in the first place. Money she didn't report on purpose in order to keep her government subsidies.

I don't see where you have done a single thing wrong here. Poor judgement dealing with this self serving lunatic maybe, but nothing illegal.

I bet grandma is just blowing smoke and this elder care attorney who sent you the letter seems like a kook. Does he know HIS CLIENT never reported the money??

I would ignore it all, and break ties forever with this toxic creature.

Halle- frickin’- lujah!!!

MargaretMcKen, I love you!

Finally! The calm voice of reason and logic. I agree with you 1000%.

I was trying to word the same sentiments myself - perhaps why I find them so brilliant - but you have said it all and much more succinctly than I would have.

All roads in this cluster eff lead back to Granny.

I don’t know the legal situation about this in the USA (and perhaps the other posters don’t either), but this is my first reaction about this complete mess.

First, an inheritance to Grandma for a round $100,000 sounds most unlike the way most estates are wound up. Sending it by check to someone other than the beneficiary is even more odd. The first investigation is going to be into the Executor/Trustee of the estate of whoever is supposed to have died leaving all that money.

Second, from what you say Grandma’s worry was about losing her medical benefits, not a tax issue. You said that you would ‘find a way that was legal for her to use this money via trust or something’. If that’s true, stick to that. Then when she threatened you, you returned the money to her in installments. Fine, that ought to be her money and you gave it back. You do have some paperwork, although not as much as would be nice. You thought that this was the simplest way to comply with bank requirements.

Third, Grandma’s attorney asks you to account for what you did or they will file with APS. You did account as best you could. Filing with APS is about elder financial abuse, and you have answered that you gave her the money and you did not abuse her financially. From your post, it sounds that you have not heard again from the attorney about the matter.

Fourth, you have not heard from the Tax Office or the Police, or even from the medical benefits organisations that Grandma was worried about.

Last, Grandma is difficult to deal with, has a substance abuse problem, potential dementia, and past fraudulent dealings over money from Walmart. Getting information from her is going to be very difficult for anyone who wants to take it to court in any way.

Grandma is the first person in the gun here. She appears to be fraudulent, but she must be proved guilty of something, before you can be an accomplice. And she has to give credible evidence against you, which seems a bit unlikely, and particularly difficult for her to do without incriminating herself.

You now regret being very unwise in having anything to do with this. 'He who sups with the Devil should use a long spoon'. However in your situation, I would suggest that you keep your head down. The legal situation may not be the same as the obvious moral issues. If you told this story to the legal firms you have contacted, I am not surprised that they wanted a substantial down payment before even trying to get their heads around it. This is the sort of situation that is likely to be much too hard for anyone to find it worthwhile pursuing, and that is quite likely to include the Criminal Law. It would not surprise me if you hear nothing more. The most likely outcome, certainly initially, is that Grandma will lose Medi-Cal. And it won’t be easy for her to challenge that! Calm down, wait and see what happens, and don’t put your foot in it unnecessarily.

Frustrated, just read your post in answers below that you contacted several attorneys who want as much as 10,000 up front. If you cannot afford this you may be left now to wait and see what action is taken. I would, however, resign as POA. You aren't up to knowing what is involved in this job I think, and you don't indicate you have receipts, timelines, records, diaries as to what this is all is. If you still have Grandmother's funds you may consider asking her attorney how you can transfer to her account the funds remaining. You mention you withdrew under 10,000 several times. This would leave 80,000 of Grandma's money you do in fact currently have, that you should not have. The honest truth is that almost no matter WHAT this costs, you are going to need an attorney, court appointed or otherwise. If you have any money of your own, you may not be eligible for a court appointed attorney. I wonder if any here have any ideas of whether or not it would be a good idea to tell the Lawyer who wrote the letter, Grandma's attorney, that yes, you do (let us say) 80,000 of Grandma's in an account that she asked you to accept from an inheritance; that you have withdrawn and given to her in cash upon her request the amounts of "however much it was" on this date and that date. And then the chips fall. Because that seems to be the honest truth.
What a mess.
I will say to any and all do NOT agree to be POA for ANYONE unless you fully understand what this means. And NEVER attempt to shelter funds for anyone receiving taxpayer's money; it will not go easy. And keep records, VERY CAREFUL and thorough records as WELL AS a diary, in ink, without tearout in a composition book.
Remember, anyone can sue anyone for anything at any time, and whether one is guilty or not, one will still have to defend the case. As Frustrated says below, they are asking 10,000 in retainer fees.

I’ve been thinking about this post nearly nonstop. I’ve got some thoughts and opinions - naturally - but I’m curious about few things... mainly just to round out the situation in my mind.

First, just how old is granny? To have granny’s aunt leave her money means either granny isn’t all that old or auntie lived to be incredibly old.

Next - what’s grandmas overall health like, both mentally and physically?

Is granny a “suing sally”? What was the Walmart deal about?

Lastly - Any idea what bug crawled up granny’s backside to get her to instigate this mess? Any possibility she actually believes what she’s saying or is she consciously trying to hustle you?

Thanks

SoFrustrated, don't beat yourself up.    Consider it a lessons learned.  We all have them, some are harder lessons than others.   Keep confidence  in yourself while you unravel your involvement.

We can learn from each other.  Your situation may help someone else, now or in the future.  


I think that the issue of her "giving" you the money might still be unclear, and I'm assuming she didn't state that she was giving it to you to hide from Medicaid.  

So, if you did think that she was giving you her share of the inheritance, I think it would bring into play the issue of "gifting", for which she should have had to file a gift tax return, a Form 709 I believe.  But that's her obligation as the "gifter."

And that's complicated b/c you returned the funds, but apparently she's claiming she didn't receive them, so that would infer that any gifting would have been rescinded.   Then she wouldn't have had to file a 709.    Whew!   (This is her problem though.)

Why don't you take a day off, go hiking or something, putter in the kitchen, read, or just relax and start working again after you've done so?  

I do think that if you approach an attorney with the concept of correcting and resolving your own involvement, you'll be better off than if someone else raises the issue.  And at this point, I think you're wise to stay away from this grandmother.   And I wouldn't take any calls from her either; confine any interaction to written communications.

Have a peaceful night, and refreshing day tomorrow.  

Whoops - answering your question as to my point nos. 7(a), (b) and (c), which I'm reposting for reference as this thread is becoming very long and I've already forgotten what I wrote earlier:

" What you need to address is (a) inference that you kept her money (b) shielded it from government agencies, and (c) now refuse to return it."

My thoughts were that (a) would apply to the attorney's demand letter and involve getting copies of the bank statements, so any "defense" would be to the letter' accusations. 

(b) would apply if in fact she intended to shield the information from Medicaid, et al, if she used you to accomplish this, and if you had knowledge of and knew that a potential crime was being committed.  I.e., were you an accessory?

(c)  would be her responsibility to prove she made the accusation.

Does this make sense now?

You've committed Medicaid Fraud, a serious offense, and quite likely a felony given the amount. Get ahold of a lawyer very quickly.

You need an attorney asap.  Do you have any way of proving that you gave Grandma the cash?  No signed receipt? No witnesses?Frankly this is the reason that you can never trust narcissists and must protect yourself from them at all times.  I would have refused to touch any of Grandma's business with a 20 foot barge pole and would never have agreed to be POA/DPOA. But an attorney may be able to help you.  And do not cover up any of Grandma's frauds. Let it all come out. Perhaps an attorney will advise you to turn in Grandma for defrauding the taxpayers. I'd do it!

Frustrated,

Did I read that your grandmother sent a letter to the executor of the estate that she was to inherit from, requesting that her portion be sent to you? Grandmother never got a check from the estate she was to inherit from?

Do you have a copy of that letter? Can you get a copy?
Did your Grandmother “waive” her inheritance? I don’t even know if you can do that.

Yes, this is a mess.

But explain again the paper trail so others with more experience can see it.

You need a lawyer.

I think, on first reading, depending on how you feel about them...

I was going to say, go to the police. But perhaps an attorney.

Never mind the financial abuse. You have been knowingly complicit in social security fraud. In fact, you actively assisted it.

I appreciate that you were acting under duress but I'm not sure that the authorities will see it the same way. Get legal advice. I'm sorry for what's happening to you, truly.

Ayayay - why in God's name didn't you send the check back to the trustee, you wombat????!!!! But I know, 20:20 hindsight and all that. I am sorry.

Entering back in and picking up Frustrated's responses to others.
Frustrated. Am I right here.
The only person who has contacted you is GRANDMA's Attorney, who claims that you are holding her money in some kind of Trust?
Seems to me then that you can prove to this attorney the withdrawals that you gave to Grandma, tell him what you have left, and arrange to have it transferred to Grandma's account right now.
This old woman is into fraud, so were I you I would resign as POA for her. She is going to get you in trouble if she has not already. Yes, she will lose medicaid. GOOD!

SoF - ok the way you described the 100k, sounds like it was done through a probate action. That is good as probate is open records so in theory you can get copies of whatever done. If it was actually done through a trust, that would be a real buttrash as trusts are private.

this is I bet what it was.... Great Aunt died & left a will & owned a home. G Auntie had $$$ + assets which as she’s dead is now her Estate. Her estate has a case # in probate court. House was sold & added to the overall kitty of $/assets for G Aunties Estate. G Aunties cousin / niece was the Executor & she was named this in the will or appointed by the probate judge. Your mom was a heir (could be other heirs as well). Executor had to do a distribution of Grams assets based on the terms of the will. I’d be concerned that the Executor didn’t do thier job appropriately as there's rules for a heir to do a pass-by (a disclaimer) for $ or a relinquishment for property that was their inheritance AND there’s rules on how distribution is done. If you were not an heir, you cannot be paid as one unless the heir died & you are the heir to the heir OR a very precise disclaimer or relinquishment was done. This in my experience kind of stuff needs Judges Orders signed off on. There should be an accountability to IRS or state tax authorities for distribution too. Like you as a heir get a W-9 to fill out & return; the Executor or the probate attorney or if it’s a big estate the CPAs that’s dealing with breaking down the distribution, should make sure this is done and it’s entered as an attachment to the distribution list or order to the docket that is the PC case number. It’s not usually taxable income but it’s still reportable & should be somewhere in the docket for grannies probate. Stuff like that can surface eventually. That Executor imo could be themselves in trouble if they wrote out an “estate of” written check for 100k to an individual (you) not listed as a heir as per the will & did not do due diligence to get all paperwork correct & submitted for an Order. If you did not sign off on a document on the disclaimer or relinquishment, I think that Executor did not do what was required. I know it seems confusing, but read this again.... it’s all sequential actions. It’s dominos. I’ve been an Executor x3, (first one had real property relinquishment, nothing but fun & it took months to get order approved for this), it’s really kinda imho all about exactly formatted paperwork in a sequential order in a state mandated time frame under tight probate laws.

The good part that if this was probate snafus, well it’s all public record. So you can either go online to probate court to find G Aunts docket and for a small fee pay for a download of all entered, or get down to the courthouse with a whole bunch of small bills and change & ask the probate court ladies how to get copies. It’s gonna be way way cheaper if you do this and give to your attorney. Atty will need all this 1 way or the other, it’s cheaper if you do this. Plus you can read & reread all the whatevers on G Aunts estate.

I would suggest that you DO NOT mention this ( downloading of probate documents) to the Executor or any other family just yet.

your Grannie when she applied for Medicaid or HUD or any other “need based” programs signed off on an application that if her status for income or assets changed she was REQUIRED to contact her caseworker or the state within short order. She cannot decline an inheritance or decline being a beneficiary of a life insurance policy. It’s an asset that’s is to her. She was required to report it.

Just like if she got settlement $ from WAlMart that included Medicare paid costs, she was supposed to let Medicare know. All this starts to show a pattern of grifting by her.

Hopefully you did not do her paperwork or sign any of her various need based applications or renewals as her DPOA. You didn’t do this, right?
Please, please tell us, you didn’t.

As someone who has coded the transaction information searches for fed reporting requirements, I assure you the transfers have been reported because (1) the $100,000 deposit was reported;
(2) the actual minimum reporting per transaction threshold is less than $10,000 - lots of crooks thought $9,999 was a smart withdrawal since the publicly reported number was $10,000;
(3) the total of large non-scheduled withdraws over a 6-12 month period combined is evaluated (scheduled or monthly/quarterly repeated withdrawals like mortgage or tax payments are ignored); and
(4) Actually depositing and then withdrawing in large transactions the same amount within a 12 month period sets of the money laundering monitors.

Over 99% of reported transactions are ignored because the person involved doesn't have any criminal history or even a history of flagged transactions. Unfortunately because the withdrawals were cash and the feds cannot easily follow the cash and you are going to have multiple reports from this one bad idea, it's very likely someone is going to come knocking on your door someday - or maybe just a letter; when/if someone does, please remember you don't have to answer just because a question has been asked. Please have an attorney review any response you make - always remember some fed will be getting a promotion based on how many cases of money laundering and/or tax invasion they discover, don't allow yourself become one of their numbers.