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Hi all
for those following my story, you know the story with my narcissist ( not just throwing around the word, he truly fits ) dad with dementia and anger on top ....



I'm trying all I can with boundary setting etc. not going well. Today I gave the ultimatum discussion, as mentioned by Alva. I calmly told him that , if he does not shape up and stop fighting and tangling with me, plus all of the assisted living staff, then next step will be that I drop off, change my number , drop POA, and he will get assigned a state appointed guardian. I asked him multiple times "do you understand what I'm saying? ". I think it took a few times and then he got the general message.



Now, I give it 2 months. If this nonsense continues at that point, I'm moving to the drop POA stage....... one thing I stipulated and he agreed to doing - to see a geriatric psychiatrist. Whether he complies with their recommendations we will see



thanks all for the advice over the months. its been helpful.

Alva is great, isn’t she? She tells it like it is! No beating around the bush.

I am sure that you feel like a broken record at times, having to repeat things over several times.

Well, since you say that your dad finally heard you, and you have given him a deadline, sounds like you have a good plan!

I hope that he will follow through with all that he agreed to.

Wishing you all the best.
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Reply to NeedHelpWithMom
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If you are a Dr Who fan.. this is when a big clock gets shown & the countdown begins. Unsually until the end of the world, the world gets blown up, aliens take over the world or aliens have infested human brains etc.

Your countdown is sort of blowing what was.. UNinfesting your brain.. more like Letting Go.

Actually, just by starting the clock, maybe you feel lighter already?

Whether you drop the POA in 60 days or not, it is a powerful feeling to know you CAN, at any future time, do just that.
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strugglinson May 8, 2024
Yes , good analogy!! I do feel lighter just by announcing all this and starting the clock !
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That's great strugglin , just want to suggest to be prepared to do what you need to do. My experience with narssasist. The smarter ones just change tactics, on how to manipulate. And I feel like sadly most of them go back to there old ways.

It's been just about 2 months that I laid down the law with my family and mother. I'm starting to see signs that things are starting to go back wards. I'm just waiting to see.

Best of luck to you!
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Reply to Anxietynacy
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Yay for progress! Just to put a fine point on things, you might want to have the PoA resignation paperwork with you and filled out to show him you mean business. I think he really won't believe you until it actually happens, that's why you need to have tangible ammo.
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Reply to Geaton777
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Agree, might be time to let someone else handle him. He has issues that you cannot resolve no matter what you do.

Stick to your guns. Good Luck!
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Good luck. With the dementia, ultimatums often don't work, Strugglin. I know you know that.
This may come down to having to do what is best for your own sanity.
The truth is that you are managing Dad pretty well as is. But I don't know what sort of toll that's taking on you.
Good luck.
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Reply to AlvaDeer
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Good for you. Stick to your guns. I may not even give him 60 days. Once he starts again, thats it. You call APS, tell them you need to give up POA. That Dad needs someone to oversee his money and him.
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Do whatever is best for you to preserve your health and sanity strugglin. You still have a family , work etc to consider . The whole situation is difficult . Dementia is the worst . (((Hugs))).
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Reply to waytomisery
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I discovered the other day that I have still been trying to do things to make him relatively happier , but that happiness for him is impossible to achieve .
so I felt I just had set set a countdown/ timeline , and let him know that .
and also that he just has to go to see a geriatric psychiatrist. No choice in the matter (well if he doesn’t agree, then I stop visiting completely until he agrees….)
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waytomisery May 8, 2024
Don’t be surprised if he agrees and then changes his mind about the Geri psych.

My mother with dementia would never agree to anything to help her mood as she felt the victim and had every right to be unhappy and angry over being placed . She just had to be miserable on her own terms until she finally accepted her situation to a degree . She finally came to terms with her decline being the reason she was in AL about 3 months before she died when she was aware she was struggling more with mobility .

My DH used to tell me “ Your mother doesn’t want to be happy”. He was right , my mother would rather complain about her “ rotten kids “ and seek sympathy .
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Oh.....you should add that dad also needs to follow the psychiatrist's recommendations ie: take the MEDS into your ultimatum SS. I remember back in 2011 after a hospitalization when my mother was so depressed she wouldn't leave her apartment in IL. I called her PCP for anti depressants which she said no, she wouldn't take. I told her if she refused to take the meds, I was done helping her. Period. She took them and came out of her depression quite fast.

I hope dad improves his rotten attitude some with help from the psychiatrist. That's the goal here.....to get him the help he needs and have him step out of his OWN WAY.

Cheering you on from Denver! 😊
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Reply to lealonnie1
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Dang. I thought he was adjusting.
I don't blame you at this point...a "come to Jesus" talk was needed.
2 months is totally fair.
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A question to the group - what if POA refuses to enable an unsafe elder to move back home, but a different family member agrees to do it and "arrange the home care". However its not done well and the living environment is unsafe. If an injury occured, could the POA be held liable even if he said he would have no part in the move back home?
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sp196902 May 16, 2024
What family member is butting into this situation with your dad? I would tell them to stop it now and stop enabling dad. Sounds like this family member is trying to grift off dads money.

If this actually happens I would resign POA before dad is moved out of the AL and wash your hands of dad and the whole thing entirely. Tell this meddler that they will need to be responsible for dads care 100% and will be liable if dad is living in an unsafe environment for elder abuse and neglect, etc.

I don't have an answer to your question though.
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Thanks. He's bugging his brother about it, who apparently said " maybe". I spoke to him sternly, he says " oh no I dont think he should actually go home, I just wanted to give him some hope. BUt my dad will keep bugging this uncle. I spoke to him sternly today that he must stop this angle and needs to be in line with me and my brother which is to say "you must stay in assisted living".
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waytomisery May 16, 2024
Giving him hope is not the way to handle this .
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🥲 It’s a lot!
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You are Dads POA which is only in effect if he has been declared incompetent to make informed decisions. Unless, your POA reads immediate. You make sure that the AL is made aware, in writing, that no one is to take him out of the AL without your permission. Especially to try and move him out.

If your Dad sucessfully gets someone to move him out, then you see a lawyer and have your POA revoked. A letter sent to Dad and the person that moved him stating that you have given up POA and are no longer responsible for Dad in any way. Make sure the person who moves him knows that by doing so, they are agreeing to take over Dads care. That you will give up your POA and walk away.
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I've tried all the angles. I think 60 days may not arrive and I'll go this route sooner I think. Unless dad agrees to inpatient psych admission as recommended
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waytomisery Jun 4, 2024
You do what is good for you strugglin.

However , Dad will be Dad , He will still look to you for answers as he does now.
Are you going to not visit anymore, not answer your phone to get relief ?
It’s ok . Do what you have to do . Just know that visiting him after dropping POA will most likely not be any better than it is now .

Have you tried not visiting or answering the phone for weeks? I did no contact with my mother for 6 weeks after she called 911 to the facility to report I was stealing her money . It did have some effect , she never accused me of that again.

She even sat by the front door waiting for me to drop things off . I called the front desk when I needed to drop things off. Mainly Depends, and her usual snacks . They would send a staff member out to my car to take items from me and they would put them in Moms room.

Whatever you decide we are here . No judgement .
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Is Dad still scheming his great escape?

Still thumbing through his telephone contact list, calling everyone he knows? Using whatever tactics he can to secure a 'flying monkey" to do his bidding?

Is he STUCK on his mission & won't let up? Nag nag nagging you every chance he can? (I have some experience in this area).

Have you tried the stare?
He nags. You state "No".
He nags. You stare back. No words. Nothing. Silent. Don't move or speak until he changes topic. See how long he can persist.. out of curiousity?
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waytomisery Jun 4, 2024
The silent frozen emotionless stare .

Yes , I’ve done that .
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Strugglinson, I'm so sorry, stay strong, and take care of yourself.

We are in this together
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The nagging to go home I have learned to deal with.

Increasing problems are occurring. Due to OCD, insisting to take 3-4 hour assisted showers, then yelling at staff if they dont do it right. Yelling at staff for various other issues too. Then wants me to come in and solve the arguments. Then mad at me for not coming in to intervene.
Psychiatrist has recommended a medication now. I'm not sure if he is going to agree to take it. I need to think of a way to convince him that he has to take the med.
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waytomisery Jun 4, 2024
Thanks for the expanded information .
I don’t blame you if you need to step away from this .

It is frustrating when you can’t get them to take medicine . In my experience with LO’s, the facility would not lie and say it’s a vitamin . That may not have worked anyway , they still may have refused .

You have every right to prioritize yourself and your own family .

Do they think having Dad in memory care would help where there tends to be more staff ? If the psychiatrist can’t figure out how to get him to take a med , how do they think you can ?
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Tell them he is in an AL for a reason, so you don't need to deal with him. Your responsibility to him is to pay his bills and make sure he needs what he needs to live in an AL. They are to make sure he takes his meds any way they can. Thats what their Medtechs are for. You have no control over Dad. Please, call you only in emergencies. If he is in an AL, maybe switch him to MC or even LTC. LTC you even have less responsibility. No Depends, LTC provides them. No toiletries, they are provided. Clothing too if you don't mind him wearing hand me downs. They will more likely make sure he gets those meds.
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waytomisery Jun 4, 2024
In my experience , AL isn’t as forceful about meds . Perhaps he needs a different level of care .

I agree . Let the facility handle it .
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Strugglin,

Is the facility complaining to you about Dad ?

Or is Dad the one giving you all the grief ?

If the facility isn’t calling you up complaining , let them handle him .
Be less involved .
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strugglinson Jun 4, 2024
Facility has not complained except to tell me when he is agitated, or argumentative, eg when they were thinking about taking to ER then they call to notify me. but so far they have solved all scenarios generally. They have not said something has to change
so, yes, i think I need to do this.
Dad gives grief, if there is a conflict with someone he calls and sometimes asks my input or for me to come in and solve the conflict, but I have stopped coming in for that.
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StrugglingSon; GreyRock, clinical detachment and letting the folks at the facility deal with him are all that you can do.

You cannot REASON with someone with dementia. You cannot convince someone with a broken brain to see things in a different way.

Acceptance of that fact is the only way you will have peace.

That, and getting up and leaving when he becomes nasty, argumentative or agitated.

No audience, no show.
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Reply to BarbBrooklyn
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I'd go with medication at this point, if doctor agreed. You've done all you can do, his facility is doing all they can do, and it's time for something to change so dad can be cared for in the best way possible. With my dad, we put a dissolving med under his tongue and his behavior improved in 15 minutes. He remained aware and alert, just more calm.

Your dad can't understand all you're saying. He has dementia.

I'm so sorry. You've been through the wringer on this.
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waytomisery Jun 4, 2024
Yes , OP has been through the wringer for sure .
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Last comment/ update (for today at least) : Had a discussion with dad about the psychiatric medicine. He refuses it, and actually does'nt want to see the psychiatrist again even. I spoke to his PCP and psychiatrist - they said there is nothing we can do at this time to force it. Well, I tried. Now, I somewhat just throw up my arms.....
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waytomisery Jun 4, 2024
Sorry , but not surprised .
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"..they said there is nothing we can do at this time to force it."

Accepting this is all you can really do. Dad wants to decide. Ok.
Detach yourself from his decisions.

If Dad appears to be struggling, remind him his Doctor/Specialist said some medication may help.
Merely suggest he talk to someone.

He can decide. Decline, stay the same (aggitated & rigid) or he can decide to change his mind. To TRY talk therapy or medications.

Suggest.
He decides.
His consequences.
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strugglinson Jun 5, 2024
Thanks. Yes, I was thinking to not totally give it up, but keep bringing it up periodically when things come up - that there is a medicine you can try to feel better....why dont you try it....
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Struggling, “now I just somewhat throw up my arms”.

Your Dad won’t “get it” unless it is something profoundly & significantly different that happens to him. Your late mom did it as she divorced him and moved to another continent….. that’s pretty serious cleavage.

The solution is there and imo it would be he goes into a locked ward MC facility that has some beds on a wing with skilled nursing care staffing ability, so that this is his last and final move. And you file for Guardianship to be able to do this. Hopefully he has the $ to private pay for speciality MC for years.
My guess as to why this AL hasn’t yet booted your Dad out is that Dad has had more than enough $$$ to throw at temporary fixes so he has not been entirely their (the ALs) problem…. Y’all have hired caregivers and aides, moved him from 1 apt to another as he didn’t like his first one, etc. For the AL, you make sure bills are paid & it sees you as enough of a servant to your Dad (you’re constantly putting bandaids on problems of his own creation) that they don’t have to deal with him & so they can ignore him. If you were not doing all this, imo, Dad would have been given a 30 Day Notice to find a higher level of care long ago.

As he has seen a psychiatrist, this gives you a way to hopefully file for guardianship. Find an atty who does Guardianship to precisely find out what he & you will need to have this done successfully before a judge in your neck of the woods. Then your atty & you contact the psychiatrist to see if he will be ok to do whatever document needed for you to have an attorney do the paperwork for you to seek Guardianship over your Dad. Once you have that, you have all the legal authority needed to move him into whatever type of facility needed, to ensure Dad gets the medications he so needs, etc.

Just resigning your POA and letting your Dad free float in his decision making does not solve the problem. You will still be the default contact for his banking/financials, the AL, APS (should they be contacted), any hospitals or doctors or clinics.
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Well, things overall are not getting much better.
He declined to go on psych meds. Paranoid, anxiety, and argumentativeness are worse. THen I found out he is still speaking to family and telling them he suspects we are stealing his money. I forget who suggested the statement below, but I went ahead and issued him a version of it as a potential threat. So lets see now how he responds:

"Dad, if you don't trust us, we're more than happy to resign our POA and get rid of ALL this work we do on your behalf which now you want to go over with a fine tooth comb to make sure we're not stealing from you. This has cost US time away from our families and we're getting ulcers from ALL of this. Just let us know NOW if we should resign our POA and have the state take over for us. Once that happens, your life choices are in THEIR hands. Your choice. Just let us know in a few days how YOU choose to proceed."
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waytomisery Jun 29, 2024
Stay away . I stayed away 6 weeks for a similar problem including Mom calling 911 to say I was stealing money .

Don’t answer your phone or call back either . I ignored Moms messages . After 6 weeks my mother finally left a message with an apology.

Sorry strugglin,
this all sucks. You do what is best for you.
Dad will be Dad no matter what you decide .
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Then revoke your POA. You are not going to get thru to a man who has Dementia if thats the case. Accusing children and POAs of stealing is a common thing among those who with Dementia. So you resign and call APS on a vulnerable elder. Let the State take over his care.
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My neighbour went through the being accused of stealing stuff, of locking up, of stealing the house, of making up lies on & on.

It was like a fight for autonony & independance when you think of it. The family members that became a 'trigger' for rants did need to step away for a while. Sad, but necessary for BOTH sides.

Then as dementia progressed a new, softer, more forgetful person emerged.

The Mother had given in. To the routine, the environment. Felt safe there. Became HAPPY to see familar family faces. The previous 'stealing' all forgotten.

I don't know how long it takes to go from 'that stealing son of mine' to 'my beloved son'.. 💔

Visit less for now I guess.
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