Is it time to become full guardian?

Use Pamstegma's advice. She's on point.

Joannes - you are a great mom and what your girls did to get your mom / their NaNa (or whatever they called her when young) all settled states away is a testament to your "mom' ness. You rock!

I'd see the attorney who drew up the POA. He or she could advise you on whether your state would allow you to completely take over their finances or if you need to go farther and try for guardianship. This can be difficult and expensive but it's sometimes needed. Try the attorney first and go from there.
Carol

JoAnn29, well it was NOT stress free or easy! My parents together, fought everything re: help in the home, to all 'control' issues...and after my Dad was placed, my Mom was even worse. And yes, she did get scammed once while I was out of town, and all her good jewelry was stolen. She got a call from a lady who said she was from her 'insurance company' and they needed to make a home visit. She agreed because they said they always do this for elderly customers. Two ladies came and did some medical stuff, history, b/p, looked at meds etc....but one asked to use the bathroom. Mom referred the lady to the bath connected with her bedroom, that opened also into the family room. The other lady kept asking mom questions.. Later in the evening, Mom discovered all her jewelry gone, and that this woman had been in all the drawers in her bedroom....estimated $6000 loss to her. After that, I added cameras to the alarm system to monitor whenever anyone came to the door or she let them in. And, of course, leaving her home was an awful ordeal, then 3 weeks into the A.L. placement, she fell and broke her femur....emergency surgery, 3 months in rehab and then a walker and 24/7 oxygen...which she acted like was all my fault because I forced her to leave her home! Of course, nothing easy about emptying out the home they had lived in for over 60 years.....and deciding what to save, what to toss and it took up 3 storage rooms and lots of money to move some good stuff to the kids in WA. Then the horrible chore of trying to sell the house, from 5 hours away and all that comes with that experience. Lost about $20,000 or more because we needed to sell, no matter what, in order to pay rent at A.L. when we started to run out of savings. And then, no adjustment in A.L. Mom angry that she could not move in with me. Angry if I didn't come daily for 3-5 hours because she was alone and it was all my fault. She had mean spells where at times, I really wanted to just walk away and leave her. And in the middle of all that, I was still trying to apply for Aid and Attendance and Medicaid and do the right stuff with the house sale. It was all complicated. She signed the house over to me, because she was not able to handle dealing with a realtor and making any decisions. But by doing that, it became a gift to me, so no Medicaid for whatever length of time, BUT, it made us able to get her qualified faster for Aid and Attendance.....which my rep at the VA said would take a couple months, but, in reality it took 11 months and I still do not have the back pay. Dealing with federal govt is very time consuming and confusing, even with others helping you!! So, I started having many health issues which I was pretty sure were stress related, but heart, breathing and gut trouble you don't mess with at 72 yrs old, so my girls insisted on faking a 'paid for' train trip for Mom up to WA to 'visit' for her Oct 1st BD . She was to stay for two months while I went through this medical work up. We all massively prayed that it would go smoothly. And, for us....we believe in and have seen the wonderful, miraculous benefits of prayer....but we never expected in '100 million years' for my Mom to suddenly announce that she thought she could live up there and make it work out!! She wanted to save her money from the A.L. rent and liked being with family, but still having her space. We were all dumbfounded and I kept saying, "Well Mom, you have to be sure, because if we pay to move all your stuff in storage up to you, we cannot change your mind, as there won't be an A.L. to come back to". She insisted so three weeks later, we did it. Her furniture just arrived last Wednesday and they are still unpacking boxes and getting her place set up. My hubby, younger daughter and I are flying there this Sunday for a week to visit. I promised Mom that if she stayed, I would fly up every couple months to visit for a week, so she wouldn't be without me totally. But that agreement from her, I am convinced is the work of GOD. And if it doesn't work now, she will have to find another place to stay up there. There is no moving all her stuff back here again. These trips cost close to $2000 to move furnishings. Her train trip was $1500....going through her money like crazy, but of course, she thinks the family does all this for FREE! She thinks she will be staying with daughter totally for free, when, of course, I am setting up checking accounts and paying them both a salary and a check to cover her costs for being in the home....utilities, food, her share of gas for going to doctors and other outings, her medical co pays and drug costs etc. I will keep control of her money as the POA and Trustee. Our family there could be renting that home out for at least $1200/month, and they have 24/7 responsibility for her, so they should be paid a salary and have some money to pay for respite care when they want to go out as a family alone, or away for a weekend

Just want to say, a no solicitation sign wouldn't hurt. Get rid of all junk mail. Wish could stop the mail from heaalth insurance companies this time a year. My SIL is going thru where her Mom changed her insurance. This removed her from her retirement insurance thru her employer. Cost her more money and lost her pharmacy coverage. SIL working n getting it reinstated. A big headache.

Joanne's, sounds like everything worked out well. Like the idea of a sm place to herself and granddaughter staying nights with her.

When I had POA for both parents from out of town, the lawyer told me that the best way to proceed, was to remove all checkbooks and other financial things like CC, and permit one account at a closeby bank, and allow a debit card from that bank with so that I could keep a small balance in that account, like $200 all the time. Then they had the debit card for shopping, getting gas etc, so they didn't have to carry a lot of cash. I put a note by the phone that said if people call to sell things or come to the door selling something, to give them my number and just tell them, I pay all the bills and handle all repairs and that they have no money in the house to pay for stuff. I got a couple calls....like new hearing aids were needed for Mom. And if it meant sense to buy something, or do a home repair etc, then I would take care of the payment over the phone from another account, or I mail out a check. Parents had control of some money and they were OK with that. Dad eventually went into memory care, and Mom was home with caregivers. When Dad died, after a few months, lawyer and I told Mom that we could not afford to pay for caregivers to keep her there alone in Tucson, with no family around, and that lawyer suggested it was time to sell the home, and have her move into A.L. or go live with a granddaughter who had offered to have both grandparents come live with her and her family. Mom chose A.L. by me. That lasted a year, and Mom just now went to visit our daughter, up in WA, and got there for a visit and decided she would rather live there than in A.L. We've just finished closing out her A.L. apt and moving all her furniture and stuff up to WA where she has a sm manufactured home on our daughter's property. Our eldest granddaughter sleeps out in that home with Mom, so she's not alone at night. Mom is liking it better with family around to eat with and socialize with.. Up here by me, she was still alone every night and just was not social enough, due to her hearing issues, to join in with much of the social activities in A.L....so was pretty much a loner in her apt. She needs the people around due to her Alzheimer's...and it helps that our daughter is an RN, as I am (retired though) so communicating re: health issues is great too. My only real advice about considering moving them, or getting them on Medicaid, is that moving into a nice place that accepts Medicaid, and doing private pay first, will ensure that you get them into a nice place. If you stay in the home, and try to apply for Medicaid, when it comes through, you may not be able to find a nice place with a opening and would have to move into what is available. In some states, Medicaid does pay a little bit for help in the home as well. If either parent served in the military during war time, there is a benefit called AID and ATTENDANCE that could be applied for as well. My Mom gets that, as my Dad was the WWII vet. It does apply to spouses as well. It took close to a year to get Mom approved, but she gets $1149/month along with her social security....and it doesn't matter where she lives. We pay our daughter a salary as her caregiver from that money....along with paying for her other expenses from her social security income.

Is this is private aide or a agency aide. If agency this should be reported. POA does not give u full control of parents money. They can still write checks. You need to check out a conservatorship. This will give u full control.

one thing for SURE...fire those caregivers!!!

I thank you all for your supportive answers and concerns!!! I've gotten final word from my parents atty that all you say is true and I am final word on all of their affairs without the courts involvement!
I also will be taking this loan out of the caregiver's wages until paid...she signed a note to that effect.
I've do have possession of all checks, credit cards etc as I do all finances.
It seems that this issue is resolved and I appreciate this website so much! It's help me in so many ways in the past months...thanks to you ALL!!! love and peace

You can not avoid court if you want to become guardian.
And you will have to return to court, or at least the lawyer will about every 6 months. You will need to keep detailed receipts as to how money was spent and for who. (You buy Dad a pair of shoes and Mom a blouse each has to be noted.)

I think you could recover the money "loaned" to the caregiver. This is Elder Abuse and you could press charges.
If you are going to obtain guardianship and have contact with the lawyer I suggest that you have them draft a letter to the "caregiver" and explain if the money is not returned charges will be brought against them for abuse. (If this is their job they will run the risk of loosing any further employment) I also suggest you find another caregiver.
One way I found 2 good (great) caregivers I contacted the local Community College. They have a CNA program and they also train EMS as well as a Pre-nursing program. I asked in an email to the director if she knew of any students that would want to do private care-giving. I got calls from about 4 people and the first 2 I talked to I hired.

If both are showing signs of dementia it might be time to look for Memory Care for both of them so that they can be together in a new environment together. Both will need more and more care and if one can not care for the other you will eventually have to get help 24/7
If funds are limited you might want to begin the application process for Medicaid. Even if they are turned down at this point at least getting the process started will make it easier in 6 months, 12 months or when ever it is necessary.

I'm sure your parents' caregivers are not doing it for free and you do not give any information in terms of their financial arrangements or caregiver's contracts. As POA you can become their caregiver. If you think you can do better, then by all means do so. It's easy to dictate care at a distance and expect caregivers to do everything for free -- when you don't have to do the work--so why not do the work yourself.

Since you handle all the money, how was this "loan" made? Did they just have $2800 laying about the house? Tell the caregiver, since you are your parents POA, there will be no more "loans", the only money will be for paid caregiving services, and this caregiver is not to ask your parents for any money. Then I would start deducting small amounts from her paycheck to pay on her "loan" until it is paid off. You do have leverage since you control the purse strings. It is not the first time people have been taken advantage of by caregivers. Watch their backs and make sure you make all conditions of employment clear to this caregiver. You have the power. (You can tell your parents not to give money or possessions to this caregiver, but they will forget). Take all money out of their hands so none will be missing...

A DPOA is used to avoid guardianship. Guardianship is costly and you are inviting the court system into your lives. You have the authority as DPOA to override the loan they offered. If the caregiver is through an agency you call the agency. Personally if someone is asking your parents for money as DPOA I would remove them from their role as Caregiver. An employee should NEVER accept a loan or money outside of agreed wages even if it is offered.

You probably already know this but your folks cannot have access to the funds. With dementia they are prime targets for scammers. Don't hesitate to do a little fibbing to make life easier and get stuff done.

And, promises your folks make to people do not have to be kept. You are the gatekeeper. Judge what is legit and what is not.

Good luck to you. Two parents with dementia is a handful.

Windyridge, et al, I did just hear from our family ATTY who drafted the POAs and she says as you do...no need for legal guardianship...the POAs cover it all.
Thank you all for your guidance and assistance...love and peace

I think you may be able to handle this with the poas you have. My POA for my folks gives me all rights to handle their finances and care. It does not stipulate that they must be incompetent for me to control everything on their behalf. I've been doing everything for a couple of years. Dad with dementia, thinks mom takes care of things, mom knows I do it all and she's fine with that. She can barely drag herself through the day much less deal with bills and finances.

Review you POA with an attorney and determine the scope of your abilities.

thanks for the detailed reply! yes...the POAs for both parents are complete financial POAs, one for each and they signed them back a couple of years ago when they were still able. They were constructed by an atty and are comprehensive...many pages. I conduct all financial matters for them presently. I would like to avoid court and competency documents if the POAs suffice. My father (a brilliant chemist in his day) seems to think he can still make decisions...but I'm questioning that right now. I also have durable health care POAs for both as well...just need to have them activated. I've been handling all of my parent's affairs for the past 1.5 years without any contest from either of them. Mom has two caregivers who do her personal cares and cook the meals I don't. We take turns staying over night and dad has a lifeline type wrist button if there are times when they are alone. (very few hours a day) They are well taken care of at great cost. thanks for your the replies! love and peace

Yes, time for full Guardianship. See an attorney and make sure the court costs are paid from your parents' funds.

Lynn - the DPOA that was done for your folks, did they have an atty do this? If so, I'd contact that atty and ask if they do guardianships and a ballpark figure of the costs and what type of guardianships are available for your state. Like some are just for finances; others for the entire person. Guardianships since they are a defined legal process have a somewhat substantial cost. Based on what others have posted on this site…. maybe 4K - 8K plus will require annual or semi annual filings with the court.

If there wasn't an atty. involved for the DPOA, then I'd suggest you contact the Area of Aging for your region. All states have AoA but their HQ may be in a bigger city. AoA are part of your states Council of Governments which are in all states and serve as kinda a bridge between federal and private grant $ and are paid by your tax $. Some AoA are big full standing agencies (like Houston's AoA) but are still under the COG umbrella for funding (like for Houston it is part of the Houston Galveston COG). The AoA will have names of resources for doing guardianships for low-income situations.

The situation for your folks to be quite honest sounds like it's just one event from there being a domino of problems…… they are both aging, with dementia, living in a home and mom cannot walk on her own if there is an emergency and need 2 caregivers and their funds are limited. They need to be somewhere that has 24/7 skilled oversight. If they are low income, they will qualify financially for Medicaid; mom certainly will for the "medically at need" part for Medicaid & perhaps your dad will also. What is keeping you as DPOA from finding a facility for them and moving them into it and then selling their home? If they need to apply for Medicaid, it's good that you got the caregiver to sign off that the $ 2800 is a "loan", otherwise it will look like gifting and penalize their Medicaid application. Once you move them into a secure place, then The house can be sold and depending on how much it sells for either used towards a spend-down on things they need (like prepaid funeral & burial policy, new eyeglasses & hearing aids, clothing better designed for living in a facility) if it's especially low value OR if the house is worth a lot of $ it enables them to have more options as to the type of facility to be in before they become impoverished and on Medicaid.

What happens if there is any kind of emergency? or bad weather conditions? or other unexpected situation? for them as your mom sounds like she is totally dependent on others. Dad is old as well and with his dementia he may not be able to really do what needs to happen in emergency situation. What then….