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This is not a question, it is a call to action. Having spent my entire life taking care of physically and mentally ill adults who openly and frequently admit they want to die (even when I was a child), I would choose death immediately if physician-assisted suicide were available in my country. The very sick and highly-dependent elderly are, for the most part, kept alive at great physical, emotional, and obviously financial cost to most of us merely for profit by pharmaceutical companies and institutions. Massive industries profit from pain and suffering with little incentive to permanently resolve any type of dependency, whether drugs or services. "Oh dear, what about my religious beliefs?" Apparently it is a sin to help people die: you are robbing your God of the vicious entertainment of watching the sick slowly disintegrate as mindless zombies or suffer for years in excruciating pain until their bodies give out. The concept of a judgmental God is a lie. Organized religion only exists as a means of control. WAKE UP AND TAKE YOUR LIVES BACK -- or end them. This is pointless. "What about my children?" Congratulations for forcing more life into this endless exploitative circle jerk. I hope your kids enjoy being stuck in a cycle of desperation as wage slaves OR as exploitative business leaders OR as masters of paper pushing and hopelessly competing with the Joneses even if they won't admit it. All life is pointless. This is pointless. Choke on those dirty adult diapers, diehards! A walk in a pretty park or a funny joke or cute puppy does not make up for the endlessly excruciating day-to-day nightmare of human society.

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Becky04469 Sep 2022
I agree.
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Too bad this post will probably get removed. I have to agree about the dying process of many elders. Maybe not the euthanasia part unless the elder can make the choice of sound mind before it happens.

It is a sick joke for many elders to laying in feces and pee, some in pain and many having lost their minds.

The worst is the evil and wicked elders who are rotten to the core who live year after year torturing the adult child who feels obligated to take care of them while being abused.

I also wonder what the point of it all is. I mean life it seems is just a game of pick a straw and many are left with the short one through chance.
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It really is about the money. Many NHs and maybe ALs as well would probably close without very sick elderly people to tend to.
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Yeah, the post will probably get removed, but some words of advice to op.

Quit taking care of your grandfather. In fact, don’t do caregiving at all.
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temporary12 Sep 2022
What a luxury to CHOOSE.
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You are entitled to your opinion. And you are also allowed to carry on with your life as you wish. Once you let yourself out of this dark place you're in, I hope you will choose to live for something you believe in, not just against things you don't like. Good luck.
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‘Euthanasia’ has a bad wrap because of Hitler, no matter what it means literally. ‘Assisted suicide’ is more explicit. It has finally been passed where I live, after about 10 attempts over the last 20 years. 80% of the population support it, and guessed who/what opposed it? So thank God! Not the Churches!

Fundamentally, it’s only available to people who are able to consent, and have a disease which is terminal in the reasonably short term. The bigger issue is the reality of the old sarcastic verse “Thou shalt not kill, but need not strive officiously to keep alive’.
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GardenArtist Sep 2022
Margaret. I doubt that euthanasia was part of Hitler's plans, which were more like just plain slaughter, annihilation and extermination. I don't think the ovens were built for euthanasia; they were built for quick extermination. I just finished reading a biography of an American pilot who was captured and held in the camps. The details of the exterminations are beyond horrifying.
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I don't even know where to start with this. First off, call me what you want but I don't think God is entertained by people's suffering. He never promised that people's lives would be without suffering either. He said he would help us through the suffering if we ask. We have to take the bad with the good. Sometimes the bad really sucks. Not to sound unsympathetic but that's life.

Secondly, yeah it's sad to watch people suffer and lay in their own feces etc. but assisted suicide is not legal in most places and even if it were I believe a person has to be of sound mind before they could make that decision. Most people who are still of sound mind probably don't feel they need to make that decision and by the time they aren't of sound mind it's too late. So that blows that theory.

Thirdly, even if I could have ended my mom's pain it's not legal to do so.

So, good for you for spewing out your negativity but nothing you said really makes any difference in the bigger scheme so good luck to you!
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Cover999 Sep 2022
That being the case, why was the late Dr Kevorkian lambasted?
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More appropriate in Discussions than Questions. And definitely he should give up caregiving of others and devote some effort to fixing himself.
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Euthanasia / Assisted suicide is apparently legal, even for dementia, in the Netherlands; I think it has to be specifically consented to like a medical DPOA while still competent and I imagine the cost for this kind of medical tourism would be high.

For the rest of us, all we can do is express and document our wishes and hope that those we trust will follow through. Without something to rely on, caregivers default to trying to take good care or their charges. If you only want to be kept comfortable if you get dementia, be specific: no CPR, no pacemaker, no pneumonia vaccine, limits on encouragement to eat, limited medications, …
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MargaretMcKen Sep 2022
Also in Switzerland, most of Australia, I think Canada. Probably more. Everywhere has very careful legislation to protect against forced, short-term, or choices based on misinformation or inadequate care options. I have little doubt that groups will be working for it in the USA.
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A resident at sos work was moved from his il condo to their al. That usually means that they’re at the top of the needs category. After that it’s moving for an mc or snf.

He rode the elevator down to his storage unit, pulled out his 357 and stuck it in his mouth.

The head caregiver on duty resigned.
The facilities worker they sent, who found the guy with no head, went on a two week vacation. Two days after he returned, he ended up hurt on a major workers comp.

The point is that I think this guy was fully aware of what he wanted. He could just do it himself is all.
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Frebrowser Sep 2022
I am so sad to hear that this happened to your SO and their coworkers. I wish that I believed that they were offered appropriate supportive care after such a terrible experience.
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I hope you are giving serious thought to a career change.
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It is a pity to let OP’s black mood and inappropriate words derail what is actually a sensible question.
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You should not be caregiving. Why are you?
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We do it for our pets, because we do not want them to suffer. Why do we want to see our fellow humans suffer?
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Cover999 Sep 2022
Easy, Money
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My father, who suffered with vascular dementia and heart failure in MC against his will, still enjoyed many moments in his last years. He enjoyed rocking in the rocking chair on the porch. He enjoyed visits from his nephews. He enjoyed eating his favorite meals and treats. He enjoyed looking through magazines on his hobbies. He enjoyed telling people about his collections from the pictures kept in his room. Did he have the quality of life I wished for him? No he didn't but his quality was far too good for me to complicate ending it.

My mother had MCI and spinal stenosis. Even in her final days when she couldn't move around much, she was still living and impacting those around her. Her great-grandson, only 6 at the time of her death, doesn't want his train table removed from her bedroom; he still goes in there to play saying he still feels like she's there. A little boy who lives reading because she read to him nearly every day for years. Who loves music because Mom and I frequently sang the songs my mom sang when working when I was a child. A little boy who still says out of the blue "I miss Grandma".

Their final years were worth while; they felt so and so do I, the person who carried by largest burden of their care.

I do not disagree with assisted suicide for certain medical conditions, provided the person agrees while competent. Death by cancer and some other diseases can be unbelievably cruel. But wholesale euthanasia for old age; NO!!!
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sp19690 Sep 2022
Now tell us all the negative things associated with your parents decline. It is easy to forget all the bad once caregiving ends.
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I firmly disagree. Who are you to determine what is or is not a "quality" life? Who are you to determine if someone needs to die? Just because your perception is that their life is "wasted" at this point, or of no value, does not mean it is.
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sp19690 Sep 2022
I can firmly say that once a parent is crapping on themselves and smearing it everywhere that their quality if life is gone. Or a parent who needs to be on constant meds to control psychotic outbursts or 100 other things.
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I’ve seen a miracle or two (or more) in my life, and I don’t know who or what distributes them, but I DO KNOW that it’s NOT ME.

THEREFORE, I gotta hang around long enough to watch as many things, good and bad, as possible, AND LEARN FROM THEM.

I appreciate your perspective, deadinside, but it isn’t one I share.
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This persons screen name “Dead Inside” says it all.
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AlvaDeer Sep 2022
Amen.
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You can not make a unilateral decision like that.
Totally different if you as the one that has no quality of life, no awareness of self. But you can not tell me that because my Husband had dementia and he did not "know" who he was, who I was that I have to euthanize him.
(He may not have known ME but I still knew HIM)
If HE had told me prior to his illness that if he ever "got like that" that he would rather be dead then I would have some validity to look into Physician Assisted Suicide.
BUT once he became unable to carry it out himself I would NOT be able to do it. There lies the rub with Dementia and Assisted Suicide.
If I am ever diagnosed with a life limiting condition I would consider suicide. My fear would be that I would not take enough pills and would end up being more of a burden to family than I would be if I let nature take it's course.
Assisted Suicide should be legal in all States.
Doctors should be more honest and forthcoming with facts about prognosis and get over the mind set of CURE. The benefits of Hospice should be taught in Medical School. Doctors should discuss it with patients when discussing prognosis. End of Life choices should be discussed with patients LONG before the need, it should be discussed during Annual Physicals simply to get people comfortable discussing the topic.
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Ariadnee Sep 2022
My husband, a physician-Hospitalist, did have these discussions with end of life patient's family members. The push back he got from them, on average, was brutal. He was the only one in his department brave, honest enough, to do this. He also gave out his personal cell phone number and it was not uncommon for a family member to call him at 2-3 in the morning to either vent, yell or rarely thank him for the group family meeting my husband insisted on having with them about their very ill family member, and the best course of treatment (if any) for them.
He also taught the residents, and made sure to explain this reality to them, that this is an essential part of practicing medicine and to be a very good doctor. Interestingly, they voted him teacher of the year-twice.
Be clear in your living will exactly what you want for your end of life. That helps everyone.
The OP is either a troll or has a lot of problems that really don't belong here. We're going through enough as it is as caregivers, no need to make it worse.
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Beyond any sort of moral or ethical argument, which I am SO not going to get into with the OP -or anyone else, for that matter - the reason why euthanasia is allowed for our pets is because, legally, pets are considered "property". THAT'S the reason why we, as owners, are allowed to *legally* make the decision to euthanize.

I have had to euthanize pets. It is a horrific decision to have to make, and while I know it was the right one, I still suffer from guilt. I can't imagine making that decision for one of my parents, or in-laws, or spouse.

OP, if you are to the point where you are fantasizing about euthanasia for your grandfather, then, for his sake and yours, end your caregiving forthwith! You are no good to anyone, least of all him, while this rage burns in your gut!
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mstrbill Sep 2022
We euthanize our pets because we know in our heads and in our hearts it is the right thing to do.
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what is wrong with you? Why are you so miserable? Are you wanting to kill yourself or someone you are caring for? If so, you need to call a crisis center immediately! Call 911! Why so much hatred? Get on some Prozac because if not, you could possibly end up in jail for murder!
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Admins:
Reporting post so you can assess and decide on any actions.
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Two things --

1. Anyone is free to refuse medications and treatments at any time. If we simply didn't treat a lot of today's ailments, I'm sure people wouldn't suffer as long as they do.

My own mother had CHF for years, and I believe she lived seven years longer than she probably should have. She, however, didn't feel she was suffering and wouldn't have chosen not to be treated. In fact, her dementia made her think she was 16 again, and when asked, she'd tell you she felt fantastic.

My cat developed CHF and the vet said we could drain her chest cavity and put her on Lasix -- exactly what we'd done with my mom. I declined to do that to a helpless animal, and she suffered for two days vs. Mom's seven years.

2. You need to find another line of work.
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I just reported the post via the message box at the bottom of the page. Given that it's a weekend, and perhaps deliberately timed that way by the troller, I'm hoping that enough people complain about this revolting diatribe that the admins, if they're monitoring on the weekend, remove it immediately.
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PeggySue2020 Sep 2022
I’m against the removal for two reasons.

1. Op clearly has been doing this as she feels there’s no choice and little reward. I bet her attitude is endemic among some caregivers including those paid to take care of strangers. We need to hear that perspective to respond to it.

2. A discussion is to be had about when and how a patient can exercise their agency in a way least traumatic to them, their caregivers, and society at large, even if their choice is to end it.
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I agree with Peggy. Why is this post bad but the one about people wishing their loved ones would die is OK?

As for those that brought up why not euthanize babies since they use diapers too. Well a baby only for a certain time period is in diapers. That baby after 1 or 2 will graduate to using a potty. The adult in diapers will never graduate from defecating and urinating on themselves. Would any adult in their right mind want to live that way? Would they reject all life saving measures? Most would. The exception narcissists and people who fear death because they think they will be going to hell for the evil things they did on this earth.

The reality is life here is messy and messed up. You have children dying of cancer and old people with dementia living into the hundreds. You have people allowef to euthanize an unborn baby because of birth defects but we have thousands of children and adults locked away in facilities due to mental illness that makes them violent and psychotic. What's right. Whats wrong? Everyone has their own opinions.

There are so many grey areas to life. I am for forced stetilization of child abusers. Yet others say you can't do that and are against it. I am against using narcan on drug addicts who are overdosing. Others say you have to save them. That it's wrong to let them die. Who's right and who's wrong?

I dont think you should just randomly euthanize old people with dementia. But please stop with the life saving treatments. Let them pass with some dignity and stop using them as cash cows.
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BurntCaregiver Sep 2022
sp,

When the post started getting abusive and the OP started sounding like a maniac is when it stopped being okay.
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This post started off making a reasoned argument that most people could agree with.
Then you went bat-guano like a derailed train and became abusive. I don't need to report you for abuse because others on this thread have already done so.
You claim to have spent your entire life taking care of physically and mentally ill adults.
Someone like you should never be allowed anywhere near disabled adults, children, or even animals who need care.
Get help. You need some.

@PeggySue,

You are right. Caregiving usually has zero reward. Often times a caregiving situation does just get dumped in someone's lap and they don't know what to do with it.
No one has to work in caregiving. I'm not ashamed to say when I started out in it 25 years ago I had no skills or education to speak of and it was a job that's easy to get. As time went by and I went private duty, I stayed in it because the money was so good.
When a person is saying all life is pointless and they hope people choke on dirty adult diapers, they've lost their cotton-picking mind and should most definitely not have any person or animal left in their care.
I believe in human euthanasia. I think human beings should be shown the same mercy and compassion we will show a suffering animal that is beyond hope. Some places have it. The state of Oregon allows it. Some of the Scandinavian countries do too.
It is not for some wing-nut like the OP here to make such abusive statements though.
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Lets leave God out of it and respect people who want to preserve life, it is their right to do so.
In many countries assisted suicide is gaining lots of recognition. Canada, Switzerland, Netherlands for example.
Canada has very strict approach to MAID, medical assistance in dying, only patient can decide if end of life is imminent, no family, caregiver and especially anybody with POA cannot have any input, none whatsoever.
As of March 2023 people with mental disease will be eligible as well.
Pegasos in Basil Switzerland although very strict looks at many aspects.
It is controversial as it should be, but, taking some action or forcing anybody would be wrong. Many people recover despite drs diagnosis.
OP can vent and that is her/ his right. Just the content sounds disgusting, should be removed? No, everybody is free to express their opinions just maintaining some manners. OP, get some help!
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AlvaDeer Sep 2022
I disagree. The OP has suggested what is deemed murder under our laws.
I am fully in agreement that we should have a right to die, that our final exit should be in our control and that we should be able to exit should we choose without giving an average of 30,000 to fly across the pond to do it (after very onerous paperwork indeed; read Amy Bloom recent biography of her husband's accessing the right to die in Switzerland).
This person could have titled this post any way they wished, and many have brought up this issue before, including me. This person wants foment and drama and argument, and this person got just that.
The post should be eliminated and the person should be warned that further posts such as this will result in removal from the Forum.
We can and have taken this subject up many times, whether or not it should be OUR right to die. But to make it our right to KILL??????
Ummmmmm, that's pretty sick.
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I read this earlier but did not respond. But I see it has been a good discussion. But, I found no nasty responses from the OP other than the initial post. Administration must have removed them.

I think this person is caring for someone and sees no way out and I think there are some of us who can sympathize. Yes, there are options but not everyone is able to take advantage. You have to be under a certain income level to get any help and most people fall between the cracks. Too much monthly income but little or no savings for care. And nothing happens overnight.

I know a woman who was caring for her ALZ Mom. She had Mom in an AL but felt she was not getting the care she needed so she brought her to live with her. The woman had thermal cancer. No one to care for Mom if she died before her. The woman overdosed her Mom and then overdosed herself. So sad, both were beautiful people.
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How about we just stop giving statins, colonoscopies, treatment for skin cancer to people with dementia? I mean it is ridiculous some of the medications people with alz or dementia are on. There have been posts here about doctors wanting to put pacemakers in a person with dementia or get a stent or cancer treatment or something life extending for someone that has no idea who or where they are.

On the opposite side of the coin are family members keeping elders in squalor and baremy alive so they can collect their social security or other money.

Nothing is ever one size fits all when it comes to people. There are bad outcomes on both sides of this issue and other issues.
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JoAnn29 Sep 2022
Colonoscopies are now not recommended for people over 75 I think it is now. I had my first and seems the last at 72.
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I am sure the OP would want to euthanize me. I’m wheelchair bound, on dialysis, insulin dependent diabetic and have Had multiple cardiac surgeries. However, I still work at home part-time, am down to only a dialysis aide. I am not dependent on my children, family members or the government for emotional, physical or financial support. Right now I’m a happy, independent person. I have many friends that I care deeply about. I have a religious and spiritual community that I enjoy and support. I find the OP’s statements distasteful. People should be able to have assisted suicide, but not the way the OP suggests.
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sp19690 Sep 2022
Based on the OPs criteria you would not qualify for euthanasia.
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