What words and phrases have you found helpful in getting your parent to cooperate? Today we talk with FIL about his $$$burn rate$$$.
My FIL is a widower and lives in independent living in the same unit he shared with his wife. The unit is ridiculously expensive for one person. And FIL also pays for 2 shifts of caregivers and it's questionable that he needs them as much as they come.
FIL is burning through his money at an eye watering pace. My husband is POA (including when MIL was alive), manages everything, has done an amazing job of it, and at great personal cost in both time and energy. It's also cost us money in time away from working and earning money.
My FIL is uncooperative, dramatic, negative, and self absorbed. Last month, FIL dumped a whole bunch of negativity on my husband and hubby had had enough. Together, we reviewed FIL's finances. Bottom line: FIL must cut expenses, with biggest savings coming from downsizing to a smaller unit.
Because FIL cannot manage his affairs himself any longer, I feel that my husband is well within his rights to force his dad to make a choice: cooperate or hire a professional POA. Hubby and I are also making plans to return to our hometown in the next year or two because it is clear to both of us that FIL may live another 10+ years.
All that said, what words and phrases have you used that have gotten you results? Words of advice and wisdom in how to run this meeting with FIL will be greatly appreciated!!!
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Also, not sure what a professional PoA is except maybe an elder attorney? You can't hire a PoA for someone else unless you can prove that person is not of sound mind. Is your hubby currently the PoA? If so, he can resign the authority, but not sure I would do this. Your hubby is reacting to your dad as if he's not a senior citizen you *might* have the beginnings of dementia. He should take him to his next doc appointment and have him discretely tested (docs do this all the time). This will tell you a lot more and inform your next steps with the situation.
If your DH has his dad's financial PoA he has power to change the spending rate, but he may not get his dad's blessing. Your DH having an adjusted mindset to what is going on with his dad will be crucial in how he deals with him and the situation.
If you do eventually get to move him, please have it be into a senior community with continuity of care (from AL to MC to Hospice) so that he won't have a big upheaval later in his years when it is really unsettling to him (and you and hubby!). And depending on how it went prior, DH might want to move him to a care community close to him, as it will be easier. No perfect answers, but good luck!
Has DH talked to the lawyer who drew up the POA about what rights this gives him?
If DH is in charge of FIL's money, he needs to cheerfully announce to FIL, "next month you'll be moving to unit 4 H; that's what you can afford right now".
If FIL objects, DH pushes back, gently, once and says, "Dad, you can't afford to live in this apartment anymore. Sorry".
If FIL makes a fuss, DH resigns POA and walks away from management. He then visits as a loving son and says. "sorry dad, that got taken out of my hands".
There is no reasoning with dementia.
We don’t have diagnosis yet, but Mom is definitely uncooperative, negative and self absorbed, as your FIL is, NY. Money-wise, each month she gifts a large organization since Dad died, and gets a visit once in a while from them too. She is unable to tip at restaurant via %, and tips ‘how she feels’ after the meal.
Mom isn’t burning $$$ but when asked to elaborate, she dismisses my concerns with she ‘just wants to do it that way’. She’s unconcerned because she’ll ‘be okay’.
There’s coming a time when her reverse mortgage won’t be enough, I fear.
Thanks for the question, NY. Hope you’ll keep us posted.
All of that leaves it with it still being Dad's choice. And in fact, if you are freed from this, then I think that is almost just as well. You cannot help those who will not be helped. Dad will perhaps listen to a Lawyer who will tell him the rate of hemorrhage of the money will leave Dad in a Nursing Home with a roommate he may not care for.
You can only do so much and it is so clear you have tried everything.
I obviously don’t know your FIL ability to reason.
I don’t think it’s helpful to have a financial conversation with someone who can’t handle finances.
To me this convo is to make DH feel better about a decision he has already deemed necessary.
We don’t know the extent of the dementia but waiting until the space has been located and it’s time to move would be my suggestion.
“We want to make sure you can keep Betty and Sue, they take such good care of you” would be as about as far as I would go on finances. Whatever would resonate for him.
Saving money probably not so much. In other words use caretaker manipulation on the things he is concerned with.
Accentuate the positive as it relates to his current priorities.
More tv stations, better food, other singles in the area. Better view. Closer to the dining room. Whatever the highlights are. Perhaps it’s closer to the bathroom. A larger shower or closet or bedroom?
I would drop the attitude of “force his father to make a decision”. He made the decision when he gave his son POA.
Thank you for your answers. To answer your questions:
Yes, hubby has shown his fathers the numbers in black and white and yes, FIL was always bad with money, never looking at price tags, always just paying the bills without considering them. He's a spendthrift.
No, hubby has not talked to the elder law attorney who drew up the papers. I think that's a great suggestion.
Thank you for answering. It makes me feel like I am being reasonable. I do feel that hubby has been eminently reasonable in trying to deal with his dad and that it's reached the point of "do this or I'm out" because it's taking such a toll on my husband.
I love you all. Really. Knowing that I can come here for advice is priceless to me.
I don’t see any other way than to take the issue head on as diplomatically as possible. If FIL refuses then do what you have to do.
I had to force my folks into assited living. Took the phone away. And the car. Dad had no short term memory at the time and could be diverted. Mom was livid but not competent enough to do anything about it. That was the reality for us. Maybe for you also now.
Elders will get hurt feelings, mad etc as we take measures to care for and protect them. It can’t be helped. Just doing our job as best we can.
You're posting is just fine; the posts are simply unfindable!
Instead, make it about you and start with "I"..... "I'm worried about you", "I want you to be able to live comfortably for a long time", "I really love you and I need to voice my concerns". "I'm willing to help do whatever it takes to make the rest of your life as good as it can be." "I'm concerned that your goals and actions are not matching up and I'd like to help you". These might make him a bit more open to at least have a conversation.
Everyone is so right, there is no reasoning with dementia, so these may not work. But if there is still a bit of reality in your FIL, these will be your best bet. Good luck!
Good luck; this is so aggravating I know but it often gets worse. It is very hard, we all know that here.
I just had a talk with my step-father about moving some of his money to secure a better ROI, I approached it with hard facts, showing him how much he was earning and what his potential could be. After a while, he understood, we moved his money.
Personally, I would lay it out in black n white, how much he has, how much he is earning including SS and any pensions, less what he is spending, forecast it out over the next 5 years. Do it in a professional, non emotional, non judgmental way.
I think it's this darn "reply to" function. I can never find my most recent post.
You're posting is just fine; the posts are simply unfindable!
8 min ago
I feel that we have tried everything and that I am tired. I wish that my husband would give his dad the "either or" but he feels that's extreme. What I think is extreme is the amount of money being wasted every single month that by now could have paid for an entire year's worth of rent at assisted living. I am very much a person who lives in the present with a forward-looking attitude, and FIL's money will not last into his 90s. It just won't at his current rate of spending. And then who has to deal with that mess? My husband, which means I too will once again have to deal with all of the nonsense associated with FIL's poor decisions. And I am tired of it."
I'd be tired of it too, NYDIL!
Too extreme? Your DH is supposed to be in a fiduciary position with regards to his dad, doing what is BEST for him.
What is dad's "plan"? If he was always a spendthrift, did he always expect that someone would be there to bail him out?
What is DH's "plan"? Is he planning on using your (joint) retirement funds to keep Dad in his overly costly apartment?
It sounds as though your husband needs some tough talking to by the lawyer. Or send him to Bogleheads.org for financial advice.
Perhaps the lawyer can be the "bad guy" if it comes down to that.
I have told my husband that I will not agree to spend our money on his dad. We do not earn enough to also pay for his dad even if he downsized. His brothers won't help out with money either because they all agree that FIL is wasting his money.
I will check out boggleheads.
My husband was a successful business man, very direct and capable...but..when it came to his parents, he was useless, very weak and incapable of standing up to them. Made me crazy. I had to give him ultimatums in order to get him to do the right thing for his parents, sounds like your husband also has a problem in this area. It was an never ending battle between us, he knew what needed to be done, just didn't have the backbone to do it. He didn't want to upset them, instead he put them in harms way, it was a big mess.
I hope that this will not be an ongoing issue with you and your husband. Was a very stressful situation for me.
This issue has been ongoing for 3 years. I too find it very stressful. I am losing my patience with them both. I find myself angry with both them just for different reasons. I am angry with my husband for being weak when it comes to his dad, and angry with FIL for being uncooperative. And I'm tired of FIL's poor choices being attributed to his dementia. He's always been this way. This is nothing new. It's just being accentuated now that he's losing control over things over which he used to have a firm grasp.
Had another unpleasant conversation with my husband about his dad. A one-bedroom just became available and would save $$$thousands$$$. I feel like a rancher prodding cattle just trying to get hubby to make an appointment with the resident director to show FIL the apartment. I went in to see it when they were painting it and it's next to the elevators, which is perfect for FIL.
If FIL+hubby miss this opportunity I will not lift a finger ever again. I say that now knowing that somehow I'll get sucked back in. [Sigh] [Scream]
My sister and I located a lovely, but much less expensive IL for our parents when they were around 90, after their current facility had a 9% rate increase one year. I knew their savings wouldn't be sufficient to cover expenses for an additional ten years (both of them had parents who had lived well into their 90s.)
In our case, we arranged the moving van for first thing in the morning. We had parents stay at sister's house while my brother and I arranged everything at their new apartment. Clothes were hung in the closets, toothbrushes, towels, and toiletries in place in the bathroom, pictures hung, lamps plugged in, bed made, dishes in cupboards, coffee maker on counter, etc.
We didn't get everything unpacked that day (I returned the following days to finish emptying boxes and restock the frig.) But our parents walked into a very attractive, familiar-looking apartment that evening.
Our parents adjusted very well, (although neither had more than MCI at the time.) They and we kids were greatly relieved to no longer worry about their money running out. And their savings did make it (though just barely!) until Mom died at age 99.
Maybe dear hubby approaching him with the reality that he may end up on Medicaid, in a facility that is not within his control or yours. Since he doesn't seem to believe that you all are acting in his best interest, it might be time to high a professional that he can tell them exactly what he wants done, how and when and just deal with the consequences of running out of money. Dealing with someone who doesn't care, it is only a paycheck to them, so dad, you can be as determined and stubborn as you want, it is your life after all.
I saw that my dad just wanted to be in control, no matter how insane that control is. He doesn't believe that he has dementia so in his reality he is making good choices and decisions, scary!!
Her dad deferred to her older brother and my SIL pushed back HARD.
I think your DH needs to push back. You can encourage him by telling him that he should tell his dad that you won't put up with this.
This old school stuff should not be pussy- footed around.
"We're in America, Dad. These Amerian women do'nt do it this way" I'll have to walk away from you".
I don't envy what you're facing. Do let us know how you decide to handle this.
Good luck!!
It's not how I would have handled things. I am disappointed that none of them recognizes that FIL is manipulating them and stalling. I also am frustrated because FIL is now once again in control and can delay a move.
None of the sons seems to recognize the inconvenience of moving their father will be squarely on the shoulders of my husband. It is highly unlikely that any of my BILs will offer to fly out and help with a move (if it ever happens and I'm not holding my breath). Were it ever to happen, the timing may not be convenient for me and hubby and I will not drop everything we have going on just to move FIL. And I will let everyone know that I won't be doing that because I've dropped everything too many times already for their father and I'm done with all of that.
Have you asked the marketing director if she knows of any more 1 BRs opening up soon? I'd make sure she knows of FIL's location preference -- could be someone else is waiting for a 2 BR (FIL's current apt.)
Of course, you WILL tell everyone you won't be available to help with a second move.
I am not letting this go. I told hubby that enabling his dad to pass on this available one bedroom because he doesn't like the view will be a costly mistake. Maybe it will spur hubby and his brothers to insist. Maybe not. Things have become absurd.
Do the sons know that a Medicaid nursing home will be an even harder adjustment for Dad? I observed a couple when my folks were in rehab. Rehab was one part of the building -- the rest was devoted to nursing home including (maybe all?) Medicaid recipients. All shared the dining room, activities, and other common areas
Even in one facility that was newly built, it was a Big Step Down from an IL or AL: shared rooms without space for personal furnishings, minimal planned activities for the residents, and wholesome, but plain food (I paid to eat with my folks on several occasions.) Long waits for a CNA to respond to the call button. And one of the rehabs continually misplaced Mom's clothes, even though they were marked with her name.
If the sons are aware of all this and still let Dad call the shots, then I think I would find it too frustrating to be involved in his long-term planning. I would tell the family I'm going to just be the caring DIL who visits and let them deal with the consequences of their decisions!
They have no idea about Medicaid and the realities of nursing homes especially not ones paid for by Medicaid. They're in La-La-Land and/or lack the beytsim (testicles) to stand up to their father. It's ABSURD.
I used to be the caring DIL. Now, I'm TIRED because I have been frustrated by FIL for far too many years. I. AM. TIRED. [sigh] [scream].
But it would be great to get hubby to tour some nursing homes/Memory Care facilities that accept Medicaid. Illness and accidents occur in the blink of an eye with the elderly, and it would be immensely helpful to have some facilities selected pre-need.
And, while touring NH facilities POA hubby could learn about Medicaid -- which facilities accept it, what they look like and offer, and the requirements to apply and be accepted (5 years of financial statements, etc.)
It's all an eye-opener. I started a NH search while Mom was in Memory Care. Had she reached 100, she would have needed to move to a NH that accepts Medicaid.
Now there's talk of moving FIL out of independent living and into a regular apartment building in a quiet neighborhood that has good public transportation (for the caregivers, not for FIL) and continuing with the private caregivers he already has and using an agency if more is needed. Thoughts?