My husband is planning an ultimatum to force a sibling meeting on parental care. Advice?

Any updates since March 27? Just curious if any of these ideas have helped the ops' husband to begin to have boundaries and stand up to his family. It is not good to live with stress for any period of time....

It is admirable that the siblings, especially those who are not local are pitching in but does not seem like a long care solution. Is the "leader" (is that the POA?) concerned about costs? Have they even looked into the costs of facilities, evaluated the parent's finances, and checked into aid options if self pay is not feasible? Are they being driven by the parent's insistence on staying home? If so, perhaps the siblings can help the leader/POA figure out alternatives and help present the most desirable option(s) to the parents. Hopefully, someone has evaluated the costs of local options for them and has full visibility to their assets and income flow. A meeting sounds good but unless the "leader" (POA?) does not want to give up their authority, it should be treated as a session for being honest how the current situation is working out, brainstorming options, steps for evaluating options, what if's and options if parents do not have enough money to fund the level of care in facilities that they would need. Ultimately, it is the POA's decision but your hubbie and other siblings can give him/her options that they actually may welcome.

Putting them in a facility or facilities (if two different care levels is needed) will not relieve the locals completely as there is still a lot of attention needed but it would help them and make it more flexible for the long distance siblings to visit and pitch in to help at times.

There is a wonderful book by Dr. Henry Cloud & Dr. John Townsend: Boundaries

https://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-When-Say-Yes-How/dp/0310209749/ref=sr_1_5?crid=RLCZJ46FNOTV&keywords=boundaries+by+cloud+and+townsend&qid=1680760780&sprefix=bound%2Caps%2C147&sr=8-5

People often are very unhappy and throw fits when you start enforcing your own boundaries, as they are used to doing their own thing, regardless of whose boudaries they are trampling on.

CCWargel: Perhaps you need to retain an elder law attorney.

Yes, I always have discovered that when I abdicate control, it creates a vacuum and more solutions present themselves. I had to defend my mother from a breakdown, in having her mother live with her after about 5 years. I sent a letter to my grandmother's other 7 children and 10 grandchildren and another branch of the family stepped up and with connections my mom and I never dreamed of...grandma was placed in a super-assisted living where she made friends and developed a closeness with others of her children and grandchildren. Everyone was much happier! So she went from CT. to Atlanta, GA, where she had contact with a larger number of her offspring. She was somewhat isolated in CT and developed a real social life in ATL. I guess I felt it was a choice between my mother and my grandmother. This situation is jeopardizing your husband's health. Sad if you have to become a caretaker of him because of the stress.

Who has medical POA?
Who has financial PIA?
Are there funds to pay for long term care facility?
Will someone need to apply for Medicade etc to pay for care.

It sounds like you will need to find out many things (if you have already done so). I would start now because you never know what quirky clause you may find in their trust (if there is one) that will entirely screw up you planning for their care. I speak from experience.

I would say whomever had medical POA and financial POA lay down the law and tell the others what will happen.

Give them one chance to attend a meeting then proceed with a plan.

Good luck.

Call a meeting and those who attend make the decisions. That's how it works in this world, those who show up make the rules.

If hubby can't do what he's been doing and all the others still work, it might be time to head to facility care. Hubby could start looking at facilities that can handle both parents, probably separate areas of the facility, and try to find something that is middle of the road in travel time for everyone.

A positive point for facility care is that all the siblings can actually 'visit' with parents while not spending all their time doing the hard work. If dad can't manage on his own or handle (on his own) DLA's, it's doubtful he will qualify for assisted living situation. Assisted living means a person can pretty much manage on their own. It's possible both of them would need same level of care even though mom seems worse off than him.

Ultimatums don't work. You draw a line in the sand and the others say 'you don't make the rules for us'. Better to be frank is what you can or cannot continue to do and offer a better solution for others to consider. And facility care might be best option at this point.

Your husband should have done this awhile ago. However, now is a good time. I see the real problem is that your husband is a "pleaser" and is having a hard time telling his siblings that he can no longer carry out the wishes that the others want to do and feeling okay with enforcing the boundary.

Once he figures out what he can and cannot do, under the different scenarios, he will be in a much better position to fight his case. However, no matter what happens, I'm sure it is going to be rougher on someone, and rough on everyone, including his parents.

Ask Elder Law Attorney to mediate or refer a mediator: the situation is very emotional and makes commitment a doubled edged sword. Everyone could either volunteer two months a year or participate in touring the best facilities and reporting back to the "group."

In essence, get in the group or get out of the way.

Husband needs to stand up - I can not do A, and B but I can do C.
You need to call a paid care-giver to take my place. He gives a little yet backs off a little.

Blue Eyed Girl said this...

"I hate to say this, it is the position that our parents put us in sometimes by not having any plan for the time when their care becomes too much for home."

And we make our parents aware that we will not going to be the ones caring for them early on. You make no plans, don't expect me to be it.

My parents made no plans because they had no money to make plans. They raised 4 kids on a blue colored workers salary. Mom never held down a job. When she finally got the last child out of the house, my Dad had to take disability for his heart. She became his caregiver. He passed at 79. I did take her into my home only because she could not live alone. I put the house up for sale and hoped the proceeds and life insurance from my Dad would get Mom 2 yrs in AL and then Medicaid. In 20 months it did not happen and I found a caregiver I am not. I was looking for respite care for Mom when I found the local AL was having a half price sale on room and board meaning Mom could afford it for at least a year so I placed her hoping the house would sell. Best decision I made.

"THE PEOPLE NEEDING THE ASSISTANCE, NEED TO BE THE ONES TO COMPROMISE" Love that! This is what needs to be drummed into some peoples heads. My MIL did not feel this way. She wanted us to pick up and move 900miles to Fla. I said no, I have responsibilities here one being my Mom, in her 80s. MIL said bring her with you, I said no I was not moving Mom away from friends, family and her Church. MILs response, "we all have to compromise" I felt like saying "yes E everyone but you" My DHs look on this, she chose to move 900 miles from us at the age of 68.

So this is still going on and everyone is still trying to please Big Momma, the only one that matters. I’m going to be sick.

Get me a walker! Send someone to fix my lunch! Drive 250 miles to change the toilet paper roll! (Just practicing in case I need to know how to create generations of groveling helpers someday.)

It's time to place both parents in a facility before anyone gets destroyed.

Truth of the matter is that families can break up over caregiving . Some siblings have already been not doing a lot.

Your husband has to do what is healthy for him. Your husband backing out won’t change the dynamic that the other siblings have already started .

No one should feel like they have to do more than they are able to do. I did 90% of the caregiving for my parents . Asked for very little help from one nearby sibling .
I asked for no help from 3 far away siblings . One did offer and did help alittle towards the end . Two that did nothing act like I don’t exist .

Had I refused to take care of my parents, I don’t think would have made any difference in the siblings relationship .

The fact that I was the one that was expected to take care of my parents was placed on me by my mother .

The expectations put on the adult children by the elderly parents is what breaks the family apart as each child figures out how to deal with it.

Time to place mom in a facility. Would you really want anyone that is forced to care for her, caring for her?

I think your husband needs to re-think some definitions.

A family of adults is NOT a work team, and it has NO BOSS.
An elderly parent is NOT a retired business founder and is NOT a controlling shareholder.
ANYONE can quit.

The ‘LEADER’ probably lives closer, has fewer obligations, and sees themselves as the favored individual/ 'shining star'. “All they want” is for everyone else to “pull their weight’ so that they can keep their own happy self-image. For them, there is no Plan B.

Arguing with 'the leader' is a lost cause and a waste of time, unless everyone else in the mix agrees to 'sack' them.

DH is NOT under any obligation to anyone else – except his own wife and children.

I have said this so many times....THE PEOPLE NEEDING THE ASISTANCE NEED TO BE THE ONES TO COMPROMISE. OP please say that out loud.

Your MIL sounds like my grandmother. Everyone was terrified of displeasing this frail old lady like she held the power of life and death. Please tell me why her adult children cannot say no to her. What exactly can she do to them?

Your husband needs to tell his siblings that he can no longer keep up the pace. He needs to man up and tell his mother that he is not going to give up the other responsibilities in his life because she refuses to make changes to hers.

I understand the whole people pleaser type. I hate to disappoint others. But sometimes you just have to for your own well being. And the world does not stop when this happens. If he has been mowing her lawn he needs to stop and tell her to hire out. He will help her find someone but she is paying for it. If MIL can't afford it, then she shouldn't remain in her home. That is how it is. Remember your parents didn't give in to your every whim as a child so why are you giving in to their every whim now?

I've been thinking about this some more - along the lines of how the other siblings are feeling. It is possible that he is the only one - but its not likely.

There is a story about a classroom of kids, high schoolers. Their teacher walks in the room with fish in a bowl of water. He sits it on his desk at the front of the classroom. He says "No matter what happens, you are not allowed to speak. You are not allowed to get out of your seats until I get back to the room. If you do, you will fail this class. No exceptions!"

And with that he scooped the fish out of the bowl and put it on his desk and walked out of the room.

The kids were all completely freaked out, the fish of course was going to die out of the water. They were all looking at each other. No one wanted to move - they didn't want to fail the class. No one spoke. No one got out of their desk. No one moved except to look at the fish and back at each other in horror.

FINALLY after what seemed like forever but could have only been seconds, one girl got up and ran up to the desk and scooped the fish up and put it back in the water. EVERYONE else in the room breathed a sigh of relief. Because they ALL wanted to do it, but no one had the courage to go first.

Perhaps you have that scenario with the rest of the siblings. Perhaps they all want to do this except the POA, but no one wants to be the first to speak up? Maybe not, but you never know. There are 6 siblings. Chances are at least one other sibling agrees. Chances are even better that at least half of them are in agreement. Because you mention that some have done far less than others - they are already establishing their boundaries. You mention that three refuse to discuss it including the POA. Are the other two in agreement with the POA? Or because they just want to go along to get along?

Everyone has other commitments.

I can't help but come back to WHY is the POA so invested in keeping the parents home? This is only going to get harder as time goes by. Without having a lot information - it seems to me that there is some ulterior motive for the POA insisting that they can ONLY stay in the home. Is there some inheritance? Did she make some promise to them to keep them in the home? What is pushing her to make sure they stay?

Back to the "fish story". What happened to the kids? What happened to the fish? The fish was of course fine because the girl stepped up and saved it. (the parents in this story) The teacher was of course watching them because it was a "social experiment" lesson for the class but she was REWARDED for her actions not punished. The other kids were grateful that she stepped up first and they didn't have to be the ones to make the first move because they wanted to but were too scared to do it. (the siblings) Because they KNEW they should, but they were scared of the consequences/repercussions if they did. But the girl that stepped out knew that she couldn't sit by any longer and let what was happening continue because nothing good was going to come of it.

It is scary sometimes to be the voice of reason crying out. But someone has to do it when everyone else is sitting on their hands and something needs to be done. Perhaps if your husband says we either look at alternatives or I have to stop doing this....the entire process hinges on EVERYONE participating....

Acording to your posts here and from back in October, the harpies are quite dissatisfied with your husband's efforts.

So in his shoes, I would quit trying. "Nope, I can't do this any longer. You'll have to make other arrangements ".

Is this all an attempt by some siblings to save their inheritance?

Another angle.. IF you & DH want to delve deep into the FOG.. just WHY does Leader sib & other sibs want to keep the folks at home?

What are their actual reasons?

Sometimes fear shuts down conversations.

If anyone made that (umm.. foolish) promise of no NH ever.. that person may need to look at that. Or does it make them feel bad.. not the perfect son/daughter? This also is their own issue.

Or maybe to protect Mom? Avoid her getting displeased? (I see that in my DH's family & yet she is a totally reasonable person & can handle the truth).

"Has anyone been in this situation? Tried an ultimatum?"
- Yes

"Have other ideas to ease the situation? I can't imagine it's going to end well".
- Ended very well actually. It forced CHANGE.

"So, he's basically trapped".
- No, not at all. It appears that way BUT he does have power here. Plenty of power.

"The family has always been very tight..."
- Tight..close.. but what COMMUNICATION?

".. and my husband is a "pleaser."
- That's about to change 😁
That's the very best bit!
Your DH is going to stand up for himself with his family. It can take practice.. but this is the way forward. Where adults communicate, respect each other. Respect when others say."No".

This situation reminds me of my mother, her sister, and their cousins hashing out what to do with the family ranch their parents all inherited in undivided portions and subsequently left to their own children (mom's generation). There were 24 owners -- half of them farmers or local to the ranch and half city dwellers who'd never lived in the area.

Everyone was friendly and tried hard to be pleasant and cooperative and respectful of one another, but the bottom line was that half the group was not of the farmer's mindset that "you don't sell land." One "city" cousin took the fall, so to speak, by forcing the sale. Out of the group, one farmer cousin never spoke to him again, but they weren't close anyway. Eventually everyone else fell in line, and the ranch was sold.

My point is your husband is the one who has to "force the sale," so to speak. He needs to state what he can reasonably do (as little hands-on assistance as possible), and I'll bet you'll see the other siblings fall one by one, too, until the locals find themselves unable to sustain the lifestyle to which Mom has become accustomed.

The important thing he needs to tell himself is that his participation in the collective martyrdom (or not) will not contribute to nor delay his parents' declines. That will happen regardless of what anyone does or how much they do or don't help.

I, too, vote for writing the letter to the siblings and sending it out. If THEY want to discuss it, let them initiate a group meeting. Your husband's position will have been clearly stated already.

I’m willing to bet if a better plan or agreement hasn’t been made by now, it’s not happening. Please encourage your husband not to sacrifice his own health and well being trying to make an impossible situation better. He needs to back out of the caregiving, no explanations or justifications needed, it’s all been gone over before. He can call his parents and check on them a few times a week. Let the POA have at the hands on stuff and don’t accept any guilt over it. That close knit sibling group is a fantasy, clearly several of them are after their own interests. If the time comes that the group is willing to honestly make changes, he can be available. Catering to unrealistic whims never helped anyone

This is my advice to your husband. Walk away now! If others feel that they can do a better job, let them do it. If they go to you wanting help with something, you can choose to help or not to be of any assistance to them.

It is hard enough to get 2 people to agree on something, let alone multiple people to come to an agreement.

So, forget about it and let the chips fall where they may.

You do not have any control over others. You only have control over your own life, and sometimes not even then. Surprises happen in everyone’s life. There are no exceptions. Plus, no one can predict the future.

I am not trying to be negative or unsympathetic. I am viewing this from a realistic perspective.

Wishing you peace as you try to sort through your options regarding this matter.

None of the siblings are retired?
So my question is how is it possible to continue this arrangement and for how long?
Surely unless they are all independently wealthy some have to work?
However you look at that this is not sustainable and feasible.
Your husband has a right to say no, his own health should be more important.

I am sure other siblings feel the same way but no one wants to be the bad guy.

Maybe if husband takes a stand and stopsi all help others will follow.

I think the sister who has POA will be a martyr to the end regarding moms care. That is her choice to make.

I don't see this family as close knit simply because there is no communication among the parents and adult children. Dysfunctionally tight and dictorally emeshed where mom rules the roost and older sister enforces what mom wants.

So...speaking from experience. If he gives an ultimatum..he needs to be prepared to stand behind it. I've just recently given one myself with regards to my FIL's care - and I know that if it comes to pass, I'm going to have to be willing to stand behind what I said I would do if it did. I knew that when I said it and I thought long and hard about it before I did it because once you do- if you don't follow through with it, then no one will ever believe it if you take a stand again.

That being said - it sounds like he is pretty passionate about this- and I don't blame him a bit. Sometimes you just get to the point where you have to draw that line in the sand and say enough.

I think he owes it to himself to give it a shot to get his siblings corralled and talking about it, at least a quorum. Have the numbers in front of him. Go into it with the emotional side removed as much as possible. Go in with just the facts. Present them with the sheer number of hours that the family has spent caregiving for the parents. Outline the risks of removing even one healthy sibling from the mix. What happens then? Show them how much this is costing in work or business loss. Whatever he needs to show them the full range of the issue. And even potentially talk about where mom and dad started vs where they are now. There should be 14 months of data - did they start out able to handle most ADLs and now they are down to 25 % or something like that - and using that trend extrapolate that they will continue to trend down etc. Most places prefer that residents come to them ahead of the curve rather than emergent and the family in panic mode. In other words they should consider these things sooner rather than later.

If the POA is the one insisting that the parents stay home - then if they are not open to the conversation - it might be that the ultimatum is the only option and that your DH is just the first sibling to jump ship so to speak. If enough of the siblings follow suit, the POA will be forced to hire help to fill in the gaps, and then eventually will likely see the need to assess other options.

Unfortunately, I hate to say this, it is the position that our parents put us in sometimes by not having any plan for the time when their care becomes too much for home. And when there are multiple siblings it becomes a competition (and everyone becomes a child again sometimes trying to win mommy and daddy's love) when what everyone SHOULD be focused on is what is best for their parents and the rest of the family and not just about keeping them in their home. I would also posit the question - WHY is the POA so insistent no keeping them home? Is this the family home that the POA wants to preserve? Or is it that they want to honor a promise to not remove the parents from the home? Is there some underlying reason why the POA is not budging on this?

I understand "people pleaser" at 73 though, I don't care anymore. I have found that "people pleasers" get s**t on. And when they stand up for themselves it's "OMG, what's wrong with JoAnn". You know that saying...

"You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

This cracked me up "You're just too busy. You need to back off some things in your life". Your MIL is something. This would have p***ed me off. I will bet if DH says "I own a business that takes up my whole time that I support my family with. My #1 responsibility is to them. Your care is taking 5 children to maintain. You and Dad need to be in an AL where there are aides 24/7. Your children have lives and jobs that you are jeopardizing. Not to mention the stress ur putting on us. You are being selfish. I am tired of being made to feel I don't do enough." And that leader...they can give up their life and care for Mom and Dad full-time.

I have a SIL I love but she gets these ideas about what "we" should do and then doesn't follow thru. I caught onto this early on so never get dragged in. When Dad died Mom lost a lot of their income. But, she was the one who handled the money. SIL felt we should all pitch in so much a month. I said lets just see how Mom does. Mom did great. I know if we had agreed to giving money, Mom would never have seen it from SIL. If she started, she would not have continued. Never did know what my brother thought.

P.S. I have a DH who is kind and generous. His Mom told mevwhen we were first married to always say please when you ask him to do something. Never tell him he "is" going to do something. And was she right. He will not do if its demanded of him.

The sister in charge is the sister most in denial.
You have no power here.
Thank you for your updates, but given them I suggest that your hubby preserve his own mental and physical health and step away from this mess. Get on with your lives. They are the only ones you will get.

Saying no to people you love is hard. I am in the midst of doing it in a non-caregiving situation right now. I am a "people-pleaser" when it comes to the part of the family I'm dealing with, and it's pretty unbearable to risk their displeasure. But for my mental and physical health, I have to.

Your husband needs to tell his mom she doesn't get to dictate his life to him.

Is he getting the support of a therapist? He needs to do that.